Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: Interesting article about starters time playing together.

  1. #1
    Member Ragnar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Fort Wayne, IN
    Age
    42
    Posts
    5,864

    Sports Logo

    Default Interesting article about starters time playing together.

    I want to make it clear that I do agree that he had to sit Hill when he did, he had 4 fouls and we would have needed him later if we had been able to stay in the game.

    http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.c...-foul-trouble/

    George Hill picked up his fourth foul midway through the third quarter of Game 5 of the Eastern Conference Finals, and after he hit a technical free throw on his way to the bench (thanks to jawing between Mario Chalmers, David West and Udonis Haslem), the Pacers led by two points.
    By the time Hill returned five minutes later, Indiana trailed by eight points and wouldn’t lead again.
    Of course, Hill finished with just four fouls.


    Frank Vogel made a high-profile mistake by sitting Roy Hibbert at the end of Game 1, and the Pacers coach erred again while handling his players’ foul trouble in Game 5. Make no mistake, Vogel has done an excellent job this series, devising a gameplan that has challenged the Heat and hitting the right motivational notes. But that doesn’t make him immune to strategic mistakes.


    Lance Stephenson picked up his second foul just two and a half minutes into the game, and Vogel pulled him for Sam Young. Though the Pacers built a lead with Young in the game, he didn’t play very well, and it stands to reason Indiana would have fared better with Stephenson (even though hindsight says Stephenson had a poor game). But Vogel self-imposed a penalty by inserting Young. Stephenson committed three fouls in the game’s final five minutes to foul out, but at that point, the Pacers were effectively out of the game.


    Vogel’s more egregious mistake came when Hill committed his fourth foul.


    Hill fouls at an extremely low rate – once nearly every 20 minutes during the regular season – and even if he’s more likely to foul against the Heat, the odds of him fouling out were low. Again, Vogel self-imposed a penalty and sat Hill in favor of D.J. Augustin.

    These self-imposed penalties are often foolish, but they’re particularly destructive for the Pacers.


    Indiana relies heavily on its starting lineup
    – +26 this series in a slight majority of the available minutes, compared to –45 for all other lineups – so tweaking the rotation allows fewer minutes for Hill, Stephenson, Paul George, David West and Roy Hibbert to share the court. In Game 5, the Pacers’ starters played much less together than any other game of the series:



    • Game 1: 28 minutes
    • Game 2: 29 minutes
    • Game 3: 26 minutes
    • Game 4: 24 minutes
    • Game 5: 16 minutes


    It’s not just that Indiana’s starters are better than its reserves – though they are – but that Indiana’s starters work so well together. Even when four starters play together, the Pacers are just –16 in 40 minutes this series.


    In Game 5, a lineup with Augustin replacing Hill and the rest of the starters was –8 in five minutes.

    The biggest problems came defensively, where Augustin – who played a more minutes than any Indiana reserve this series – often didn’t stick close to his man or, when he did, wasn’t big enough to disrupt him.


    Probably by the Heat’s design, Indiana’s point guards spent a decent amount of time guarding LeBron James, who set screens for Mario Chalmers or Norris Cole to begin pick-and-rolls. Any switch or hedge that involved Augustin guarding LeBron or preventing the ball from reaching LeBron didn’t work too well. Chalmers had his success with Augustin, too.


    These aren’t easy matchups for Hill, either, but he’s a much better defender – and a much better fit with the Pacers’ preferred lineup. Next time, Vogel shouldn’t rush to sacrifice that.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Ragnar For This Useful Post:


  3. #2
    Member Ragnar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Fort Wayne, IN
    Age
    42
    Posts
    5,864

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Interesting article about starters time playing together.

    This is another reason we desperately need a traditional point guard as a backup, say an Andre Miller he may be older but he can still play.

  4. #3
    It could get ugly Brinocerous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    109

    Default Re: Interesting article about starters time playing together.

    What is it going to take for us to land Nate Robinson?

  5. #4
    Play McRoberts and Price! BRushWithDeath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Johnson's Bay, Lake Wawasee
    Age
    28
    Posts
    5,299

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Interesting article about starters time playing together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brinocerous View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    What is it going to take for us to land Nate Robinson?
    A mistake.
    "I had to take her down like Chris Brown."

    -Lance Stephenson

  6. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to BRushWithDeath For This Useful Post:


  7. #5

    Default Re: Interesting article about starters time playing together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    This is another reason we desperately need a traditional point guard as a backup, say an Andre Miller he may be older but he can still play.
    Jarrett Jack.
    "I'd run through a brick wall for that man."
    - Roy Hibbert on playing for Coach Frank Vogel

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to DrFife For This Useful Post:


  9. #6
    It could get ugly Brinocerous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    109

    Default Re: Interesting article about starters time playing together.

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    A mistake.
    Mind explaining how a PG who averaged 1.2 more assists and almost 3 pts more than our starting point guard against Miami would be a mistake as our backup PG?

  10. #7
    DIET COKE! Trader Joe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Troll Hunting
    Age
    26
    Posts
    30,930

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Interesting article about starters time playing together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brinocerous View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Mind explaining how a PG who averaged 1.2 more assists and almost 3 pts more than our starting point guard against Miami would be a mistake as our backup PG?
    Because basketball reasons.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
    momentarygodsblog.com https://twitter.com/momentarygods

  11. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Trader Joe For This Useful Post:


  12. #8

    Default Re: Interesting article about starters time playing together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brinocerous View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Mind explaining how a PG who averaged 1.2 more assists and almost 3 pts more than our starting point guard against Miami would be a mistake as our backup PG?
    No one else on that Bulls squad could score, someone has to right?

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to immortality For This Useful Post:


  14. #9
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    21,077

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Interesting article about starters time playing together.

    Considering GHill is shooting a better percentage against the Heat than Nate, (not by much 38% compared to 33%) it falls on the number of shots each player takes. Nate took over 13shots per game, GHill is taking a little less than 9 shots per game.

    I'd rather forfeit the 3less points, and 4 less shots, for better defense. Atleast when comparing these two.

  15. #10
    It could get ugly Brinocerous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    109

    Default Re: Interesting article about starters time playing together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Considering GHill is shooting a better percentage against the Heat than Nate, (not by much 38% compared to 33%) it falls on the number of shots each player takes. Nate took over 13shots per game, GHill is taking a little less than 9 shots per game.

    I'd rather forfeit the 3less points, and 4 less shots, for better defense. Atleast when comparing these two.
    Perhaps I didn't make myself clear...
    I'm saying Robinson would make a great backup to Hill, not replacement.

  16. #11
    Member Ragnar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Fort Wayne, IN
    Age
    42
    Posts
    5,864

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Interesting article about starters time playing together.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrFife View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Jarrett Jack.
    I don't think he is being shopped but Miller was last year.

  17. #12
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    21,077

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Interesting article about starters time playing together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brinocerous View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Perhaps I didn't make myself clear...
    I'm saying Robinson would make a great backup to Hill, not replacement.
    I understood. I was just providing context for the stats you provided.

  18. #13
    Member Mr.ThunderMakeR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Phoenix
    Posts
    1,094

    Default Re: Interesting article about starters time playing together.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrFife View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Jarrett Jack.
    I'd love to have JJ back, dude was clutch in the playoffs this year and is exactly what we need. But that ain't happening, JJ and the Warriors (and Warriors fans) have a pretty strong love affair going right now.

  19. #14
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,266

    Default Re: Interesting article about starters time playing together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brinocerous View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Perhaps I didn't make myself clear...
    I'm saying Robinson would make a great backup to Hill, not replacement.
    If we're still trotting out the same crappy bench next year, then it might not be a bad plan to simply give the ball to Nate and tell him to be the bench offense. Can't be worse than what we have this year.

    As to what it would take, I'd be surprised if Nate gets more than DJA money (1 year $3.5m or thereabouts).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.ThunderMakeR View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I'd love to have JJ back, dude was clutch in the playoffs this year and is exactly what we need. But that ain't happening, JJ and the Warriors (and Warriors fans) have a pretty strong love affair going right now.
    He'll probably get more than what we can afford too.

  20. #15
    .
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,583

    Default Re: Interesting article about starters time playing together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I don't think he is being shopped but Miller was last year.
    Jack is a free agent, I believe.

  21. #16
    Member OakMoses's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Montana
    Age
    36
    Posts
    3,031

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    This is another reason we desperately need a traditional point guard as a backup, say an Andre Miller he may be older but he can still play.
    I really disagree with this. We have a "traditional" PG as a back-up right now and it's not working out for us. I think we need a backup who brings a similar skill set to Hill: positional size, defensive ability, a level of comfort playing off the ball, and the ability to shoot/score. We're at the point where we have a successful system in place, so ideally all our players would fit that system.
    "A man with no belly has no appetite for life."

    - Salman Rushdie

  22. #17
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,623

    Default Re: Interesting article about starters time playing together.

    Devin Harris would be a very nice backup point guard and probably could be had at a fairly affordable price. I just don't know if he would be willing to be a backup though.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  23. #18

    Default Re: Interesting article about starters time playing together.

    I hate to be the one to say this, but why not AJ again?

    He might be the cheapest decent option out there for the Pacers. His biggest problem is running a team with no offensive options, but if Danny is able to play, he'll be out there with either Lance or Danny, and since Vogel learned his lesson, likely a few other starters too. He always played well next to Hill. He's not turnover prone. (kind of a big deal.) Knows the guys and the system - and was quite popular.

    I know he wasn't liked (although, might be looked upon more favorably after a year of DJ), but I feel like people have learned what a bad backup PG looks like. And if you get someone like that for the vet minimum, the Pacers would have the money to get a really good backup post player or wing (if needed.)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 15
    Last Post: 02-26-2013, 03:01 PM
  2. Dirk practices with Mavs' starters for first time [ESPN]
    By RoboHicks in forum NBA Headlines (RSS Feeds)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-04-2013, 04:10 PM
  3. Replies: 94
    Last Post: 04-14-2009, 09:16 PM
  4. Interesting read: NBA centers playing fewer minutes
    By Slick Pinkham in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 01-20-2006, 08:36 AM
  5. Interesting Article
    By RWB in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 48
    Last Post: 04-18-2005, 10:01 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •