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Thread: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

  1. #26
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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrangeRusHibbert View Post
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    Selection is a culling process; it eliminates the absolute weakest of organisms, nothing more. If it's the primary "guiding force" for Darwinian evolution, then I say it's time we give Darwinian evolution a nice burial in the pseudoscience cemetery, right next to astrology. As the saying goes, natural selection can explain the survival of the fittest, but it can't explain the arrival of the fittest, and that's where the heart of the controversy lies.
    lol, what controversy? You say it can't explain the arrival of the fittest? Is that where we bring in an intelligent designer? Please stop being cryptic and just say it already.

    Plus your idea of what evolutionary selection is is completely wrong. Selection isn't the culling of the weak, it's the culling of those who don't reproduce. See birds of paradise.

  2. #27
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    What is the current majority theory among atheist materialists regarding the cause of random mutation? I mean we aren't seriously just going to chalk it up to '**** happens', are we?

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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    What is the current majority theory among atheist materialists regarding the cause of random mutation? I mean we aren't seriously just going to chalk it up to '**** happens', are we?
    It's viruses writing their code into our DNA. The viral group mind is the ruling life form on the planet.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/...61I00F20100219

    http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog...cient-vir.html

    But seriously seriously, let us not pose this as evolutionary atheists vs non-evolutionary believers. I'm a Christian and also believe in science. If there is post-Darwinian thinking out there, I'd love to hear it.
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  5. #29

    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    What is the current majority theory among atheist materialists regarding the cause of random mutation? I mean we aren't seriously just going to chalk it up to '**** happens', are we?
    I'm no expert. So I googled. Here's one page's simplified explanation:

    http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosit...C3Causes.shtml

    Mutations happen for several reasons.

    1. DNA fails to copy accurately.
    Most of the mutations that we think matter to evolution are “naturally-occurring.” For example, when a cell divides, it makes a copy of its DNA—and sometimes the copy is not quite perfect. That small difference from the original DNA sequence is a mutation.

    2. External influences can create mutations.
    Mutations can also be caused by exposure to specific chemicals or radiation. These agents cause the DNA to break down. This is not necessarily unnatural—even in the most isolated and pristine environments, DNA breaks down. Nevertheless, when the cell repairs the DNA, it might not do a perfect job of the repair. So the cell would end up with DNA slightly different than the original DNA and hence, a mutation.
    WE ARE NOT GETTING ERIC GORDON

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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by kester99 View Post
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    It's viruses writing their code into our DNA. The viral group mind is the ruling life form on the planet.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/...61I00F20100219

    http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog...cient-vir.html

    But seriously seriously, let us not pose this as evolutionary atheists vs non-evolutionary believers. I'm a Christian and also believe in science. If there is post-Darwinian thinking out there, I'd love to hear it.
    I love this post. Kester starts off by posting a link to what is clearly a non-Darwinian attempted explanation, before ending the post by asking where the post-Darwinian thinking is at.

    I wish I was making this up, I really do.

  8. #31
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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrangeRusHibbert View Post
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    I love this post. Kester starts off by posting a link to what is clearly a non-Darwinian attempted explanation, before ending the post by asking where the post-Darwinian thinking is at.

    I wish I was making this up, I really do.
    So you're into the retrovirus theory?

    I don't see that as anti-Darwinian...I suppose it is post-Darwinian, of course. Natural selection, combined with mutation from whatever source...that's pretty much the status quo thinking, as I understand it.

    Can you delineate something that contradicts or moves beyond that?

    To be as direct as possible: What we (me and the frog in my pocket) are asking is 'What is your thinking?' Not as a critique of current theory, but what you see as a better explanation.
    Last edited by kester99; 04-27-2013 at 08:04 PM.
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  10. #32

    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by kester99 View Post
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    To be as direct as possible: What we (me and the frog in my pocket) are asking is 'What is your thinking?' Not as a critique of current theory, but what you see as a better explanation.
    This. I'm also curious about these unanswered questions from earlier in the thread as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Just out of curiosity, can you expand on "highly educated?" I'm not questioning you at all, I'm just interested in how much academic work you have done in such an area. Admittedly, I haven't done any, so I am interested in those that have dug deeper than myself.

    Also, if we narrow this scope to the origin of human life, what are your scientific beliefs?
    And:

    Quote Originally Posted by kester99 View Post
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    Hey GRH, what can explain the arrival of the fittest??

    And what does that mean?
    All we've received so far (and all thread, really) are condescending dismissals.
    WE ARE NOT GETTING ERIC GORDON

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  12. #33
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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    I'm terrible with explaining evolution and such, but this Asimov short story is pretty awesome: http://filer.case.edu/dts8/thelastq.htm.

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  14. #34

    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by kester99 View Post
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    Hey GRH, what can explain the arrival of the fittest??
    That's the question in need of an answer. I have a good idea, and it gets better on a near daily basis. And get a load of this -- it's based on 21st-century evidence and proper scientific methodology, not 19th-century dogma.

    Wild and crazy stuff, huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by kester99 View Post
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    And what does that mean?
    With all due respect, if you don't grasp what the arrival of the fittest refers to, than this debate may be a little bit over your head.

    In order to be selected by the omnipotent deity known as natural selection, an organism must first exist. It's the arrival of this existence that's in question.

  15. #35

    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    The questions in biology are much deeper than most people realize, even otherwise well-educated people. You have no idea how many scientists I've seen who have tried to use minor changes and/or some carefully-aligned sequence of fossils and thought it was a debate-ending argument. These people are clueless as to the extent of the debate, and sadly, most of it's due to willful misrepresentation which has in turn lead to a lot of confusion.

    What you'll often see is people with questionable agendas trying to pigeonhole the answers into only two possible sides: Darwinian evolution, or Biblical creationism. There is no middle ground. You either believe that a primordial chemical soup magically came to life, before a series of beneficial, but entirely ateleological, mutations cobbled together the greatest engineering in the known universe, or you're a dreaded "creationist."

    This is, of course, a load of ********. Unfortunately, many people -- students, teachers, scientists, etc. -- fall for it.

    In reality, there are at least three crucial questions in play, each with possible answers that extend well beyond Darwinian evolution or Biblical creationism. These three questions are:

    (i) The origin of life - how did life originate on Earth? (this is the single most important question, bar none)

    (ii) The relatedness of life - to what extent is life related? (this delves into the question of common descent/design)

    (iii) The causes (mechanisms, principles, forces, etc.) behind changes in life, and how they "stick" in populations.


    The Darwinian explanation has failed. Every line of evidence has contradicted it, and no amount of ad hoc additions can save it from falsification. It's not "only a theory." It's not a theory, period. It's a failed hypothesis.

    It's not surprising that it's failed so horrifically. After all, it was a product of ignorance, formulated and articulated in Victorian England, a full century before the rise of molecular biology. Imagine still holding to a foundational view of cosmology that was formulated before the invention of the telescope? You'd be a laughing stock. That's how I view Darwinists.

    Darwin's views were accepted because they seemed right at the time (just as a flat Earth once seemed right), and because it used nature, itself, as the designer of life, which was a very comforting conclusion for a certain group of people.

    In short, Darwinian evolution goes beyond science, and acts as a creation myth for certain people. These people have as much an emotional and personal attachment to their creation myth as any other group of people have to theirs, which is why this is such a heated debate. We're not talking about impersonal disagreements; we're talking about the very foundation of own existence. As Richard Dawkins put it:

    "
    Although atheism might have been logically tenable before Darwin, Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist"
    --Richard Dawkins

    In challenging Darwin, a person is inherently challenging that "intellectual fulfillment," which is why Darwinists resort to name-calling, intimidation, suppression, dishonestly, institutionalized discrimination, and indoctrination. They don't want anyone challenging their creation myth, nor the intellectual fulfillment they derive from said myth.

    I've rambled on a bit long here, so I'll stop now. I'll try to find the time to explain the details of why Darwin's theory has been such a massive failure, why there remains a so-called "consensus" (anyone familiar with the history of science, and in particular scientific revolutions, should already know the answer), and last, but certainly not least, my far superior 21st-century-evidence-supported ideas.

    It's time to evolve beyond Darwin's ignorance, and the ignorance propagated by his supporters.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Oy.

    I'm done. I need to go try and improve myself somehow.
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  18. #37
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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    I always found the explanation of the 'chemical soup' creating the first life on earth to be dubious. From what I recall reading, scientists have been trying for decades if not centuries to purposefully replicate that soup and failed. So why on earth would I decide that it happened on accident to begin with? Sounds like gap filling to me. Not that it couldn't be true, just that I think it currently requires a lot of faith, given what I just said about their purposeful attempts.

  19. #38
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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    By the way, GRH, I find a lot of what you're saying very interesting, but your choice of language (some of which I find condescending, snippy, or hyperbolic) makes you look like you're overcompensating for your point of view.

    And for God's sake, if you think someone doesn't understand what you're talking about, then prove you know what you're talking about by explaining it at a respectful, introductory level instead of telling someone what they 'don't grasp' or that it is 'over their head'. If you can't teach it on even that level, you probably don't know it as well as you think you do.

    I think if you made those adjustments, you would get a lot more people who might possibly hear you out and see things at least a little bit differently on these topics.

    Or don't.

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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    GRH, I'm curious. Are you a scientist by education/training/employment? If so, what field?

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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    All I am hearing from this guy is condescending, arrogant BS with no explanation to his new theory. We get gems like "With all due respect, if you don't grasp what the arrival of the fittest refers to, than this debate may be a little bit over your head." and an incredible hatred for Darwin and classical evolution.

    There is no debate happening here. If you have an alternative theory to present then spit it out, until then your "debate" looks petty, biased and shows you have no information to bring to the table other than belittling other peoples comments and established theories. All you can do is be rude back at them. That's not how you win a debate, unless you are politician.

  23. #41
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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stryder View Post
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    GRH, I'm curious. Are you a scientist by education/training/employment? If so, what field?
    He is a "scientist" in the Young Earth field I would guess. Probably got his degree from http://youngearthscientist.com/ or even better http://www.arrivalofthefittest.com/ .

    On the front page of http://www.arrivalofthefittest.com/ we have this information supplied to us.
    "In the beginning (about 6,000 years ago) God created the perfect universe. After sin entered the world “natural selection” started to cause the less fit or less suited to die. Natural selection is therefore the opposite of evolution because evolution requires new and more complex genetic information, but natural selection can only select from the genetic information that already exists. Survival of the Fittest does happen, but this still does not explain the Arrival of the Fittest."

    Even if they completely ignore all modern science and the fossile record... At least they are more forthcoming with their beliefs than the OP
    Last edited by PaceBalls; 04-28-2013 at 12:18 PM.

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  25. #42
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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    By the way, GRH, I find a lot of what you're saying very interesting, but your choice of language (some of which I find condescending, snippy, or hyperbolic) makes you look like you're overcompensating for your point of view.
    Yeah, it's not really what he's saying that is such a turn off, it's how he is saying it. Delivery is key.

  26. #43
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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    ...I keep waiting for the part where we get to the Flintstones theory where we co-existed and rode dinosaurs like horses.....
    Last edited by Kstat; 04-28-2013 at 04:19 PM.

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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    ...I keep waiting for the part where we get to the Flintstones theory where we co-existed and rode dinosaurs like horses.....
    Hahahaha! Can't wait for that!

    C'mon GHR, please expound. I am eagerly waiting...

  28. #45
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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    I've read through all of this. There's only one person that doesn't seem open to discussing the topic in a civil and open minded manner. But hey, "suicide capital of the world" is also funny to him so get what you pay for.

  29. #46

    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I always found the explanation of the 'chemical soup' creating the first life on earth to be dubious. From what I recall reading, scientists have been trying for decades if not centuries to purposefully replicate that soup and failed. So why on earth would I decide that it happened on accident to begin with? Sounds like gap filling to me. Not that it couldn't be true, just that I think it currently requires a lot of faith, given what I just said about their purposeful attempts.
    Absolutely.

    If we get right down to it, nearly the entire argument for abiogenesis is a negative argument against competing ideas. "It must be A because it can't be Non-A."

    To make matters worse, their reasoning for why it can't be Non-A is based on dogmatism, not valid scientific or philosophical principles. Thus, it's not only a negative argument, it's a negative argument rooted in question begging. "It must be A because it can't be Non-A. It can't be Non-A because our dogma says it's A."

    See how that argument becomes circular? That's the current argument for abiogenesis in a nutshell. It's a slap to the face of science.

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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    GrangeRusHibbert, why not answer the questions asked of you?

  31. #48

    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    By the way, GRH, I find a lot of what you're saying very interesting, but your choice of language (some of which I find condescending, snippy, or hyperbolic) makes you look like you're overcompensating for your point of view.
    Condescending and snippy, sure, but it's hard to not be condescending and snippy in this debate. Look no further than Thingfish's, KStat's, and kester's comments. I realize from experience that the condescension is inevitable, so yes, I'm probably a little bit overaggressive because of that fact.

    Hyperbole? Absolutely not. This entire debate surrounds the most important question of all-time, our very existence. It has implications that effect basically every walk of life, from worldview, to politics, to morality/behavior, etc. Beyond that, we have examples of people having their careers damaged due to asking uncomfortable questions regarding this subject, and people using intimidation and legal chicanery to force schools to indoctrinate children. It's nothing less than completely absurd. and I feel it should be called out as such.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    And for God's sake, if you think someone doesn't understand what you're talking about, then prove you know what you're talking about by explaining it at a respectful, introductory level instead of telling someone what they 'don't grasp' or that it is 'over their head'. If you can't teach it on even that level, you probably don't know it as well as you think you do.
    Kester brought the snark to me. I merely replied in kind. To be totally honest with you, I'm okay with the snark, in fact, I kind of enjoy it. If others don't, then yeah, I'll try to use less of it, but it will be hard to do when I'm faced with comments like:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    ...I keep waiting for the part where we get to the Flintstones theory where we co-existed and rode dinosaurs like horses.....
    Know what I mean?

  32. #49

    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thingfish View Post
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    All I am hearing from this guy is condescending, arrogant BS with no explanation to his new theory.
    Patience. It will take me a while to type it out, so it will have to be when I have quite a lot of free time to really flesh it out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thingfish View Post
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    We get gems like "With all due respect, if you don't grasp what the arrival of the fittest refers to, than this debate may be a little bit over your head." and an incredible hatred for Darwin and classical evolution.


    I don't have a hatred for Darwin. I don't believe Darwin was evil. I believe Darwin was an ignorant product of an ignorant time, who formulated an ignorant idea that's unfortunately had a long-lasting negative impact on science and culture.

    I don't hate the man. I hate the man's idea, or, to be more precise, the resulting effects of that idea.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thingfish View Post
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    There is no debate happening here. If you have an alternative theory to present then spit it out, until then your "debate" looks petty, biased and shows you have no information to bring to the table other than belittling other peoples comments and established theories. All you can do is be rude back at them. That's not how you win a debate, unless you are politician.
    Oddly, the way you've described me could adequately describe nearly every defender of Darwinian evolution I've encountered. I guess I've been around them so much that I've evolved their behavioral traits.

  33. #50
    Member PaceBalls's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    GRH, All you have to do is say, no I don't think the Flintstones theory of life on earth is correct to rebut Kstat. But, maybe you do?

    Just hurry up and say how the earth is 6,000 years old so I can quote the part where you said "I believe Darwin was an ignorant product of an ignorant time". and then we can discuss bronze age mythology compared to modern science.

    Anyway, this is all just me guessing at your ideas... because you won't tell us! However, going from what I found on www.arrivalofthefittest.com which you so arrogantly chided us for not understanding, I think I can see pretty clearly where you are coming from.

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