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Thread: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    If you believe we magically manifested on earth, there's really no discussion to be had. There nothing logical or scientific in that discussion. It's religious brainwashing overriding critical thinking.

    Obviously, the universe had to be created from something. in that regard, the existence of god is a logical question. But there is no evidence to suggest earth itself was directly created by an omnipotent being that used "god magic" to place us here. None.
    If you accept the idea of a God presence then that makes anything possible. Remembe it is tthe THEORY of Evolution, not the Law of Evolution, it hasn't been proven so don't be so all fired sure what you are speaking of. Look at the millions of miracles that happend to create mankind. Look at sight alone, home many thousands of genetic variations had to develop to see that "evolve" to where it is today, Do you realize there are little soda straws in our hands that channel the tendons and allow them to work properly? Did you know that without the soda straws our fingers would curl up into unusable pads? How many genetic evolutions did it take to get that right? And I've only mentioned fingers and eyes....name any other appendage or organ and think about the miracles that occured to create them. That is an awful lot of coincedences.
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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue&Gold View Post
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    I suppose one should not bother him with things like if Adam and Eve were really the first humans as described in the Bible, who did Cain and Abel marry? How that part where they said there giants on the earth in those days, the men of old? I find most people who make his argument are woefully ignorant about what the Bible really says...
    Then you need to talk with Will Galen.
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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    We would not exist today had we not evolved from something very small and inhuman.
    Yes. We all were sperms.

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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Not to mention that all the matter in the BBT had to come from somewhere, so if it wasn't placed here by a supreme being, then something would have had to manifest from nothing.
    And, honestly, if it's somehow eventually proven true that nothing can give rise to something, does it get any more 'magical' than that? I mean if THAT is found to be actually possible, damn near anything is possible, as far as I can see. If you can literally generate matter out of a nothingness, that's like how an illusionist tricks an audience... only this time it's actually real. 'Magic' is basically proven as fact if we prove that nothing can generate something. If that kind of 'magic' is possible, who the hell are we to laugh at the idea of God?

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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Same reason all of the other planets look like nicely shaped spheres. Gravitational pull.
    Why do we think gravitational pull 'smooths out' enormous objects like that? I mean I get it, the planets we observe are spheres. Are all of their moons spheres? For some reason I thought I recalled that some of them were misshapen or otherwise not spheres?

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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Just because there is microevolution, does automatically mean that macroevolution is true.
    Isn't one of the problems with macroevolution that it's hard to explain the transition period from when life forms were very small and didn't have organs to when they got bigger and then did have organs (hearts, livers, brains, etc.)?

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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Happy Anniversary of Hicks' Origin of Life...
    * Most Humorous Poster Nominee (2004, 2005, 2010)
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    * Off Topic Thread of the Year Nominee (2010)


    Formerly a naturallystoned, badinfluence...

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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aw Heck View Post
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    I'm basing my assumption on the work and evidence of scientists using scientific methods. He's basing it on gaps in science and non-testable claims.



    I'm not asking him to falsify an assumption. I'm asking him (and other ID proponents) to falsify abiogenesis or provide a scientific alternative.



    It's only true in that it's based on what evidence is available. But like I said, it's not 100% certain. There's no "must" in there. Scientists have been studying this for a while. If there were any other viable scientific alternative, it would be studied also.



    Except one set of assumptions is based on scientific evidence and study and the other is not.
    Well, is abiogenesis scientific fact, or not? It sounds like it's not, but rather it's the best available scientific theory, and if that's the case, on some level it still has to be considered an assumption, I think. An educated guess, but a guess.

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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thingfish View Post
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    Or our knees (see basketball) or our eyes (I wear glasses and almost everyone I know has a problem with their sight) cancer, mental illness and all the other genetic shortcomings inherent in who we are.
    If we humans (and the rest of all life) were created by some deity, it sure did a shoddy job. Especially since we humans now know how to fix the genetic defects that this supposed deity screwed up on. But yea, that's not what happened.
    I think you quoted the wrong post, but nonetheless:

    I don't know if I agree about the shoddy job. It depends on other factors. Why we're here, what we're supposed to get out of being here, is this the only 'here' there is or do we exist before and/or after this in some kind of non-physical form. Depending on the answers, this physical human existence can make a lot more sense. If our natural state is non-physical, if the purpose of life is to experience it, good, bad, and/or ugly and to learn from it, then the world starts to make sense again in a lot of ways where it might otherwise appear chaotic/nihilistic. We may be deliberately imperfect, deliberately breakable, deliberately finite in physical form. Non-physical life could be the 'real world' and the physical universe could be sort of like 'the Matrix'. Just a thought. And personally I think it's an interesting one if it turns out that, to go along with all of the ********, lies, and fairy tails, that there's also some truth to psi and/or an afterlife and/or reincarnation, in other words if there really is more to 'life' than the physical one.

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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Yes. We all were sperms.
    I know that's an aside comment / a joke, but that assertion always kind of rubbed me wrong. It's like no one has ever heard of an unfertilized egg, which is literally the other half of what makes us 'us'. It's not like we start out as sperm and then get changed by an egg (or the opposite). A sperm isn't a human being. It's half of the recipe.

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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Natston View Post
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    Happy Anniversary of Hicks' Origin of Life...
    Technically wouldn't that have been sometime around July or August of 1983?

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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    If you accept the idea of a God presence then that makes anything possible. Remembe it is tthe THEORY of Evolution, not the Law of Evolution, it hasn't been proven so don't be so all fired sure what you are speaking of. Look at the millions of miracles that happend to create mankind. Look at sight alone, home many thousands of genetic variations had to develop to see that "evolve" to where it is today, Do you realize there are little soda straws in our hands that channel the tendons and allow them to work properly? Did you know that without the soda straws our fingers would curl up into unusable pads? How many genetic evolutions did it take to get that right? And I've only mentioned fingers and eyes....name any other appendage or organ and think about the miracles that occured to create them. That is an awful lot of coincedences.
    Sorry that's not how Laws and Theories are defined. A Law is an observable fact. Like Gravity, the speed of light, the speed of sound, etc... its is literally impossible to have the Law of Evolution. A theory is an explanation of related observations or events based upon proven hypotheses and verified multiple times. They explain facts and, sometimes, laws. So the Theory of Evolution has indeed been proven.

    Now as to your miracles of human complexity. Plenty of bipedal species that came before humans have hands and fingers and eyes.
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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Why do we think gravitational pull 'smooths out' enormous objects like that? I mean I get it, the planets we observe are spheres. Are all of their moons spheres? For some reason I thought I recalled that some of them were misshapen or otherwise not spheres?
    Technically a moon is just an a mass orbiting a planet. Misshapen moons do not have enough dense mass to form the spherical shape that gravity enables. So those types of moons are really just captured asteroids in many cases.

    There is some pretty solid science behind this. For instance some of the moons of Mars are only like 12 miles wide.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    SAo the Theory of Evolution has indeed been proven.
    Apparently the evidence for the so-called "theory" of evolution has evolved consciousness, gotten shy, and went it hid, because it's nowhere to be found. It certainly isn't found in the fossil record, which completely contradicts a slow, step-by-step, micro-to-macro gradualism, nor is it found in lab research, which has demonstrated random mutation to be a creatively inept mechanism. It's not found in genome sequence comparisons, either, which have proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that the tree of life does not exist, at least not in any way similar to how Darwin drew it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Now as to your miracles of human complexity. Plenty of bipedal species that came before humans have hands and fingers and eyes.
    If we're talking about the miracles of human complexity, it begins and ends with our mental faculties/cognition. There's nothing else in the animal kingdom even close to us. How odd that this one animal, man, has managed to evolve so far beyond the rest. It's almost like it was a planned event. Nah... can't be. It was all one happy little accident.
    Last edited by Lance George; 05-03-2013 at 09:34 AM.

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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Technically wouldn't that have been sometime around July or August of 1983?

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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    ...since god did not write the bible, taking anything genesis says seriously, even in the metaphorical sense, is absurd.

    Genesis is a fairy tale. It was written by people who obviously were not around to witness the events depicted. There is no reason at all to believe anything genesis says other than simply wanting to believe it.
    But the evolutionary theory that was written by men who weren't around to witness the events is fact. Such a logical conclusion to discredit something because it was seen first hand, as you argue a theory that hasn't been seen firsthand. Good to know we're working with two different sets of standards.
    Last edited by Since86; 05-03-2013 at 09:59 AM.

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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    But the evolutionary theory that was written by men who weren't around to witness the events is fact. Such a logical conclusion to discredit something because it was seen first hand, as you argue a theory that hasn't been seen firsthand. Good to know we're working with two different sets of standards.
    Ouch.

    You bring up a good point, though. Certain events aren't directly observable. This is what separates operational science, which deals with the study of nature as it currently operates, from historical science, which deals with past events (planet formations, the origin of life, etc.). While there's some crossover, there are also methodologies exclusive to each branch, which is why I like to point and laugh at the morons who yelp about the scientific method, as if it's some singular process. I wont mention any names. They know who they are.

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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    But the evolutionary theory that was written by men who weren't around to witness the events is fact. Such a logical conclusion to discredit something because it was seen first hand, as you argue a theory that hasn't been seen firsthand. Good to know we're working with two different sets of standards.
    But they have fossils and other evidence to examine that clearly shows evolution exists. Take the horse, for example, that species has undergone huge changes that are apparent in the fossil record. Islands like Madagascar and the Galapagos show how isolated populations can evolve very quickly....

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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrangeRusHibbert View Post
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    It certainly isn't found in the fossil record, which completely contradicts a slow, step-by-step, micro-to-macro gradualism
    incorrect

    And nothing about genetic mutation means that an effect is necessarily slow to develop, at least on a geological time scale. But if you incorrectly allow 6,000 years rather than 13,700,000,000 years for it to occur, you may be right

    nor is it found in lab research
    lab research is actually quite convincing. We can track DNA homology between related species (humans, apes) even unrelated species such as humans zebrafish, and crawdads, and get a good picture of how speciation progressed through the eons of time. We possess decendents of the genes to make a tail, gills, feathers, etc.

    random mutation to be a creatively inept mechanism.
    depends again on the time. In a 13,700,000,000-year old universe, no. In a 6,000-year fantasy, yes

    We're talking about the miracles of human complexity, it begins and ends with our mental faculties/cognition. There's nothing else in the animal kingdom even close to us. How odd that this one animal, man, has managed to evolve so far beyond the rest.
    in one aspect, mental faculties/cognition. We aren't the fastest, the biggest, the strongest, most long-lived, etc.

    We are the dominant intellectual species in our world-wide niche, but it's the height of arrogance to think that we are set apart among all species as being he most special and Godlike. Maybe we had some lucky intelligence influencing mutations fall our way, or maybe some cosmic collision thwarted the evolution of super-smart creature of another form.
    Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 05-03-2013 at 02:51 PM.
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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    Remember it is the THEORY of Evolution, not the Law of Evolution.
    It should be called the Law of Evolution. At some point the theory of gravity started being called the law of gravity, even though to this day we do don't know completely, at a subatomic particle level, exactly how gravity arises.

    Evolution is as fundamental a guiding principle to understanding modern biology as gravity is to understanding modern physics.
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  25. #246
    Rebound King Kstat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    But the evolutionary theory that was written by men who weren't around to witness the events is fact. Such a logical conclusion to discredit something because it was seen first hand, as you argue a theory that hasn't been seen firsthand. Good to know we're working with two different sets of standards.
    Yeah...one of them actually requires evidence....


    Remind me again what logic and reason was used to write the bible?

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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Slick, before I get around to refuting your misinformation, would you mind pointing out anywhere in this thread where I claimed to believe in a six-thousand-year-old Earth?

    You will not, because you cannot, because at no point have I said such a thing.

    On the contrary, I've made it explicitly clear that I am an areligious theist, so trying to tie religious concepts to my beliefs just makes you look silly at best, and outright dishonest at worst.

  27. #248

    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    How many different men wrote individual books that were approved by the ruling council of Catholic men to be included in the officially sanctioned Bible, based on a vote?

    And just how many things have we at some point held dear because "the Bible says it is so" but then we eventually abandoned due to our good sense, apparently gained in just a couple of centuries of microevolution?

    The idea of the Earth being flat, the Earth being the geometric center of the Universe, the idea that we should consider slavery an acceptable institution, that idea that women should be in service to men and by no means doing things like voting or owning land, that we out to cut off the hands of thieves, that homosexuality is against God's will, and that the Universe must be only as old as the "begats" listed in the Bible...

    the list of ideas big and small we Christians have the sense to discard based upon new-found sensibilities that eluded the otherwise good men who wrote the books of the Bible is rather long. and growing! Thank God.
    Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 05-03-2013 at 03:24 PM.
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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    incorrect

    And nothing about genetic mutation means that an effect is necessarily slow to develop, at least on a geological time scale. But if you incorrectly allow 6,000 years rather than 13,700,000,000 years for it to occur, you may be right



    lab research is actually quite convincing. We can track DNA homology between related species (humans, apes) even unrelated species such as humans zebrafish, and crawdads, and get a good picture of how speciation progressed through the eons of time. We possess decendents of the genes to make a tail, gills, feathers, etc.



    depends again on the time. In a 13,700,000,000-year old universe, no. In a 6,000-year fantasy, yes



    in one aspect, mental faculties/cognition. We aren't the fastest, the biggest, the strongest, most long-lived, etc.

    We are the dominant intellectual species in our world-wide niche, but it's the height of arrogance to think that we are set apart among all species as being he most special and Godlike. Maybe we had some lucky intelligence influencing mutations fall our way, or maybe some cosmic collision thwarted the evolution of super-smart creature of another form.

    Isn't there something like about 1% difference between our DNA and chimp DNA? I know we can study DNA to determine when species separated like humans from their primate ancestors....

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    Default Re: The Origin of Life/Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrangeRusHibbert View Post
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    Slick, before I get around to refuting your misinformation
    You need factual information in order to correct misinformation, and secondly you need the misinformation in need of correction to actually exist. I have my doubts about the first and have no doubt at all that the second is something that you lack.


    would you mind pointing out anywhere in this thread where I claimed to believe in a six-thousand-year-old Earth? You will not, because you cannot, because at no point have I said such a thing.
    what is your numeric estimate?

    Maybe you are not off by a factor of 2,300,000 like some others. If your estimate were 20,000 years, the error would be a factor of "only" 690,000.

    I apologize for giving the impression that I attributed the 6,000-year figure to you because I was quoting you. It was not my intent.
    Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 05-03-2013 at 03:26 PM.
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