View Poll Results: Is the NBA rigged?

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Thread: Is the NBA rigged???

  1. #276
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    Default Re: Is the NBA rigged???

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Superstar calls happen multiple times a game, with pretty much every single referee. (And I'm VERY tempted to argue all referees engage in superstar calls) That's the first, and obvious, problem with your scenario here.

    That's why I specifically brought up superstar calls. Because if you admit that superstar calls do exist, then the question is no longer is the NBA rigged, the question becomes, what extent is it rigged.


    I'm waiting for someone to actually try and argue they don't exist. That would be a great argument to read.
    They exist. There really is no argument. However, I do think they are overplayed.
    @qandrews9428

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  3. #277

    Default Re: Is the NBA rigged???

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Maybe a little gray area here. Is Patrick Ewing being allowed to travel with basically the same move dozens of times a game a superstar call? Is Reggie Miller being allowed to travel several times a game without being called a superstar call? Reggie travelled several times each game as he tried to square up and get his feet behind the three point line.

    Are those superstar calls, or are those things certain players do all the time and are just let go.

    I admit those happen and still do. I think refs get used to seeing them and don't call it.

    So when Ewing travels at the end of game #5 in 1995 against the pacers to score the winning basket - many cite that as proof that there are superstar calls. I would argue that that is his move and he gets away with it.

    To address your statement more directly. Do I believe there are superstar calls. Yes like the ones I have already mentioned in this post. Overall I think marginally the star players probably get more calls than a rookie who only plays a few minutes per game.

    But I don't think it is on purpose. As in the refs going into the game looking to help Lebron. The superstars are involved in so many calls because they have the ball so much there are a lot of opportunity for calls to be made or missed, correctly and incorrectly. And every incorrect call is blown up to be a superstar call and that propels the myth that superstars get all the calls. (except when he plays on your team)
    Lebron or Kobe doesn't foul out after playing HUNDREDS of games. Kobe hasn't fouled out of a game since the 08-09 season. 4 years ago. How is that even possible?
    "We've got to be very clear about this. We don't want our players hanging around with murderers," said Larry Bird, Pacers president.

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  5. #278
    billbradley
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    Default Re: Is the NBA rigged???

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    That just happens to repeat itself play after play, game after game? After a while a set pattern emerges. I find it hard to believe that the same calls get missed/called repeatedly, when officials review their calls and get graded by those calls.

    If you kept making the same mistake at work, over and over again, and your supervisor supposedly reviewed every day of your work, don't you think they might say something to you about it so you can start correcting it?
    I don't think the situation is that bad. The worst thing I've seen over the past few years is Wade not getting a flagrant on the DC hit. But most of the time, the calls we're talking about could go either way or are easily missed no matter how much you practice. The game on floor is out of this world fast. Even row 2 doesn't simulate it.

  6. #279
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    Default Re: Is the NBA rigged???

    Quote Originally Posted by boombaby1987 View Post
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    And you act like the Pacers get the worst of this of any team in the NBA.
    I have watched several games this year where the officials directly influenced the game. The second OKC game comes to mind. Guys, every possession counts, all it takes is ONE blown call to affect momentum
    David "And One" West

  7. #280
    billbradley
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    Default Re: Is the NBA rigged???

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Superstar calls happen multiple times a game, with pretty much every single referee. (And I'm VERY tempted to argue all referees engage in superstar calls) That's the first, and obvious, problem with your scenario here.

    That's why I specifically brought up superstar calls. Because if you admit that superstar calls do exist, then the question is no longer is the NBA rigged, the question becomes, what extent is it rigged.

    I'm waiting for someone to actually try and argue they don't exist. That would be a great argument to read.
    If a player is a superstar, does it not make sense that they would be super at getting calls? Gracefully hiding and creating fouls?

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  9. #281

    Default Re: Is the NBA rigged???

    If you have ever tried to officiate a game even once, at any level, I think you can better appreciate that human errors are pretty darn common and can't be eliminated even if you are trying your best. You get distracted, you don't see what you thought you saw, you call something that you expected to happen whether it actually did or not, etc. And yes you can get annoyed by the whiny coach or the mouthy player and let that affect you when you aren't 100% sure what to call.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

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  11. #282

    Default Re: Is the NBA rigged???

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    I have watched several games this year where the officials directly influenced the game. The second OKC game comes to mind. Guys, every possession counts, all it takes is ONE blown call to affect momentum
    What does blowing calls have to do with rigging games? Are refs infallible when they want to be?
    Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 04-17-2013 at 11:24 AM.
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  13. #283
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    Default Re: Is the NBA rigged???

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    I have watched several games this year where the officials directly influenced the game. The second OKC game comes to mind. Guys, every possession counts, all it takes is ONE blown call to affect momentum
    Remember when we shot 30 more free throws than the Cavs last Tuesday? Or was that just us being physical?
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    Default Re: Is the NBA rigged???

    Quote Originally Posted by billbradley View Post
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    If a player is a superstar, does it not make sense that they would be super at getting calls? Gracefully hiding and creating fouls?
    Sure, but not at the level that it happens.

    LeBron went over 250 straight minutes of game action without getting a foul called on him. That's absurd. There is absolutely zero percent chance that he's just THAT good at hiding fouls.

  15. #285
    billbradley
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    Default Re: Is the NBA rigged???

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Sure, but not at the level that it happens.

    LeBron went over 250 straight minutes of game action without getting a foul called on him. That's absurd. There is absolutely zero percent chance that he's just THAT good at hiding fouls.
    Why would LeBron even have to foul?

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    Default Re: Is the NBA rigged???

    He doesn't "have" to foul. How in the world can one of the best phsyical, probably the best defender in the league play 6-7 full games without a single foul called on him? Not one.

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    Default Re: Is the NBA rigged???

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    If you have ever tried to officiate a game even once, at any level, I think you can better appreciate that human errors are pretty darn common and can't be eliminated even if you are trying your best. You get distracted, you don't see what you thought you saw, you call something that you expected to happen whether it actually did or not, etc. And yes you can get annoyed by the whiny coach or the mouthy player and let that affect you when you aren't 100% sure what to call.
    I would agree primarily errors occur on out of bounds decisions and a blocked shot decision. However, what is going on in the NBA, is that the NAME of the player is dictating what the referee will call. This trend is ****ed up!!
    David "And One" West

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    Default Re: Is the NBA rigged???

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    I would agree primarily errors occur on out of bounds decisions and a blocked shot decision. However, what is going on in the NBA, is that the NAME of the player is dictating what the referee will call. This trend is ****ed up!!

    Out of bounds decisions have absolutely ZERO to do with the players involved with the decision. I think 99% of this forum would agree with me on that.
    @qandrews9428

  19. #289
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    Default Re: Is the NBA rigged???

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    He doesn't "have" to foul. How in the world can one of the best phsyical, probably the best defender in the league play 6-7 full games without a single foul called on him? Not one.
    My point was, if there was a player that could do that, it would be Lebron. I don't think it proves anything if LeBron doesn't get whistled, I would have to see the games.

  20. #290

    Default Re: Is the NBA rigged???

    I'll tell you what's rigged; lane violations. There's definitely a conspiracy by NBA refs to let superstar players into the paint early on free throws. Hell, the conspiracy goes so deep, it's been extended even to the non-superstar players. I should quit watching the NBA.

    And for those of you who think the league is actually rigged, do you remember Troy Murphy's "three pointer" a couple years ago vs. Dallas? That was probably one of the most blatantly terrible calls EVER (not a foul, but still) and it was in favor of Troy Murphy, who wasn't exactly a marketable star and played for a small market team with little to no playoff hopes. If that call had benefitted Dwayne Wade in game 6 of a playoff series, it would be held up as concrete evidence of fixed games. In comparison, LJ's 4 point play is easy to explain as human error.
    That'll do.

  21. #291
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    Default Re: Is the NBA rigged???

    Quote Originally Posted by billbradley View Post
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    The league hinges on superstar calls? That's a bit much. That's like saying the NFL hinges on protecting the quarterback.

    Honestly, I think superstar calls are justified most of the time. Superstar players usually learn how to make it appear as if there is contact. Plus, the game is moving so fast. Naturally, when a ref is used to seeing Durant or Wade create contact, they're going to get the benefit of the doubt. Heck, even Tyler has gotten the benefit of the doubt as the year has progressed. Make a name for yourself for creating contact and you get calls.

    The flip to this, players like Lebron, Shaq and even Tyler get hit harder than most players as well.

    IMO the NBA is the best officiated league.
    I do think a star gets the benefit of the doubt. However this is earned in the way that Ted Williams famously earned his strike zone, where the famous quote is an ump telling the catcher complaining about a "ball" - "Son, if it was a strike Mr. Williams would have swung at it". Folklore or true, the point remains the same. Teddy Ballgame had a reputation for being able to see the ball, thus his great hitting. This was real, a talent that set him apart from others. So when things were borderline it was Teddy that became the highest authority, even above the ump. This doesn't mean he always got the call just that his opinion weighed more in the ump's judgement than some rookie's opinion.

    Jordan is quicker, jumps better, moves faster than other players. He gets to spots first and has guys reaching for the ball after it's left the area. This leads to hits on the arm, body, not being able to plant in front of him, etc. That leads to more fouls called. Because he's always ahead of others the refs tend to expect it, and when a close call comes along the refs tend to see it as they expected it to go. It's not fair per se, but it is fair in the sense that he didn't have this gifted to him, he had to earn it by being that faster, quicker, better player.

    Lebron or Kobe get calls mostly because they are beating their man, and that probably leads to a bonus of 10% more calls due to rep.


    There are blown calls and I have no doubt their have been periods where a subset of refs biased games. I worry that Stern leans on refs with league directives as well. But that's not rigging games, just lightly biasing them. It can make a difference, but not a huge difference, not a playoff changing difference.

    Reggie pushed Anthony down and pushed Jordan away. Rigged or just crazy heat of the moment where the refs wanted to let them play? If you love those moments then you have to swallow them when they go against the Pacers too.


    Refs blow calls every game. I put this on a difficult job paired with some guys being better at the job than others. But every single home game I hear tons of Pacers fans losing their s*** on a completely correct call going against the Pacers, and swallowing their tongues when the Pacers catch some huge, unfair break. I saw people complaining about the calls in the Knicks game which seemed like a very fairly reffed game to me.

    So the league might have some light or rogue bias, but the fans evaluating it are biased tenfold more.

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  23. #292

    Default Re: Is the NBA rigged???

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Sure, but not at the level that it happens.

    LeBron went over 250 straight minutes of game action without getting a foul called on him. That's absurd. There is absolutely zero percent chance that he's just THAT good at hiding fouls.
    I watched probably 240 of those 250 minutes. We discussed it at length on this board and it really wasn't that impossible. In short, LeBron was coasting on defense, letting his man shoot pretty much any shot outside of 16 feet, while cutting off the driving lanes. He could do that because he's insanely quick and doesn't reach for fouls or try to block shots. No one during that stretch was challenging him off the dribble, or posting him up where he's a little weaker defensively. When they finally played the Thunder, I think LeBron ended up with maybe 3 fouls to end the streak.

    Please take a look at those games if you disagree but "he can't do it because he can't do it!" is not a valid argument.

  24. #293
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    Default Re: Is the NBA rigged???

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    He doesn't "have" to foul. How in the world can one of the best phsyical, probably the best defender in the league play 6-7 full games without a single foul called on him? Not one.
    But we are talking about a skill, just like shooting. The measuring tool is a human making a judgement call, a subjective measurement system, but still a measurement.

    So now let's look at Melo and his jump shooting. He put on an extraordinary run of making long jump shots, one that we all said "he HAS to cool down, no one can stay that hot", and then he kept doing it. Had the made baskets been measured by a human being deciding if they went through or not then certainly everyone on Digest would scream NBA conspiracy. Because this is a recordable, certain event that "rigged" option goes out the door.

    The point being that improbability doesn't mean false. Outliers do happen which means that SOMEONE has to have gone on a great "no fouling" defensive run at some point in the history of the NBA. There has to be a "most minutes without fouling" streak that is as legit and improbable as "8 in 8.9" or "25 in the 4th".

    I share the frustration that it's Lebron and it seems unlikely and seems ripe for being biased. But we can't fall into the trap of citing low probability as certain proof. Stars wouldn't be stars if they couldn't do the extraordinary and records must exist by definition. Someone will have always done the "most", "fewest", "best" in whatever measurable item we look at, and it will be the outlier.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 04-17-2013 at 12:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Is the NBA rigged???

    Are you really saying that some players deserve play by a different set of rules than the rest of the league? That's not some light or rogue bias, that's institutional bias.

    Referees are supposed to be objective. I understand that rules are subjective, what is "unnecessary" what is "impeding" a player, but at the same time rules are written to apply to everyone. Once you start saying certain players "deserve" things, it means other players don't "deserve" them. That's two different set of standards.

    It's not a defense that they don't happen, but rather that they're okay, or even good, for the league, which also confirms that there the NBA is rigged, towards players that "deserve" the calls.

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    Default Re: Is the NBA rigged???

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tuts Tomb View Post
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    I watched probably 240 of those 250 minutes. We discussed it at length on this board and it really wasn't that impossible. In short, LeBron was coasting on defense, letting his man shoot pretty much any shot outside of 16 feet, while cutting off the driving lanes. He could do that because he's insanely quick and doesn't reach for fouls or try to block shots. No one during that stretch was challenging him off the dribble, or posting him up where he's a little weaker defensively. When they finally played the Thunder, I think LeBron ended up with maybe 3 fouls to end the streak.

    Please take a look at those games if you disagree but "he can't do it because he can't do it!" is not a valid argument.
    Really, not one single player challenged him off the dribble? Not a single one? I wish someone had the stat of the longest time between fouls, because I bet that's an extreme outlier. (Unless it's a bench player who's getting 2min chunks at a time.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Really, not one single player challenged him off the dribble? Not a single one? I wish someone had the stat of the longest time between fouls, because I bet that's an extreme outlier. (Unless it's a bench player who's getting 2min chunks at a time.)
    Say for a second one player did challenge him off the dribble. Des that mean lebron had to have fouled him on that one drive?

    And of course that's an extreme outlier. He's LEBRON JAMES. His entire career is an extreme outlier.

    This is no less absurd than looking at Kobe's 40+ point streak and just assuming that the other team was under orders to just let him score.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  28. #297
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    Default Re: Is the NBA rigged???

    Quote Originally Posted by rock747 View Post
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    Lebron or Kobe doesn't foul out after playing HUNDREDS of games. Kobe hasn't fouled out of a game since the 08-09 season. 4 years ago. How is that even possible?
    Because he's better than other players? You have no problem accepting the other things he does better, but suddenly when it comes to fouls all players should be equal in talent? Of course not.

    And any fan with Tyler on their team has no room to debate this. Tyler draws fouls at an elite level, and he did this well not only his rookie year but in college too. I scouted him this way and said that more than any other 20 PPG type scorer he relies on getting to the line. I doubted it would translate, yet it did. There is no disputing that there is something to his game that results in drawing fouls. I think it's his awkward, forceful inside "scoring moves" that ends up drawing the fouls. Other guys just put it up and score. Tyler misses, jerkily keeps attacking after his own rebound and throws guys off-balance till they hack. But it's a legit skill in his game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Because he's better than other players? You have no problem accepting the other things he does better, but suddenly when it comes to fouls all players should be equal in talent? Of course not.

    And any fan with Tyler on their team has no room to debate this. Tyler draws fouls at an elite level, and he did this well not only his rookie year but in college too. I scouted him this way and said that more than any other 20 PPG type scorer he relies on getting to the line. I doubted it would translate, yet it did. There is no disputing that their is something to his game that results in drawing fouls. I think it's his awkward, forceful inside "scoring moves" that ends up drawing the fouls. Other guys just put it up and score. Tyler misses, jerkily keeps attacking after his own rebound and throws guys off-balance till they hack. But it's a legit skill in his game.
    I'd add (again) that after the lakers, the pacers are the biggest foul differential team in the nba. That has to be a conspiracy too, right?

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Is the NBA rigged???

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Say for a second one player did challenge him off the dribble. Des that mean lebron had to have fouled him on that one drive?
    No, I just find the humor in saying that I'm wrong because I say it couldn't happen (extremism) with saying not a single player challenged him (extremism).


    I bet if we were too look back through all those games, and watch every single play, we could come up with 15+ instances where a foul call was warranted. Do I think every instance would have been a foul call on another player? No. But do I think that there are multiple times where the whistle got swallowed, just because it's LeBron? Certainly.


    Is anyone going to try and argue that superstar calls do not exist? If not, then all we are doing is haggling over how much it's rigged, not IF it's rigged.

  32. #300
    billbradley
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    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    No, I just find the humor in saying that I'm wrong because I say it couldn't happen (extremism) with saying not a single player challenged him (extremism).
    Not what I'm saying, I'm saying it's entirely possible for maybe the most talented/gifted player ever to not foul for 5 games and still play effective defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    Is anyone going to try and argue that superstar calls do not exist? If not, then all we are doing is haggling over how much it's rigged, not IF it's rigged.
    To rig something, the refs would have to be dishonest. Making a mistake isn't dishonest, and most of the calls you're talking about are debatable anyway. Superstars make super plays, the speed of the game on the court is incredible. Even second row doesn't simulate it. It's completely understandable that the more gifted players are going to be better at getting calls.

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