View Poll Results: Is the 2013 Pacers team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 Pacers team?

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  • 2013 team is better

    80 74.77%
  • 2013 team is the same

    23 21.50%
  • 2013 team is worse

    4 3.74%
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Thread: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    Quote Originally Posted by yoadknux View Post
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    Sure, the defense is probably better, but in the playoffs everybody play good defense anyway
    There is a big difference between playing ok defense and playing kickass defense
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  3. #27
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Overall though, I would much prefer taking this team into the playoffs.

    What you said. So all the voters for last years team would rather take last years team into the playoffs this year.
    I would much prefer to take this years team than last years. I think the bench is better especially if Tyler can play with Roy
    or Paul.
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  5. #28
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    The only reason our record isn't better this year is because of our terrible start to the season, which everyone here could see that it was completely unexpected and out of the ordinary for this team. They got in a funk. They got it together. Since then, all it takes is basic observation to realize that our level of play is a lot higher htan last year on both sides of the ball. Our bench last year was terrible. It's why we had to address it this off-season. I don't know how anyone says our bench this year is worse than last years. Mahinmi is a fantastic back-up --- the man could be a starter out there somewhere. Hansbrough, too. Our bench front-court is extremely good. Augustin got off to a rocky start, but he's been better since. Orlando is becoming something special off the bench. For a rookie to be doing what he's doing on the offensive end is outstanding. Collison was sink or swim, but most of the time --- sink. He would frustrate the crap out of me for 5 games, and then explode in the 6th. He was a defensive liability. Collison was a shoot-first PG, and he usually did. I can't believe we got Mahinmi for him. We absolutely owned that trade. Our offense is a lot more dimensional than last year's offense. Someone above said this year's Lance is way worse than last year's PG ---- wayyyyy incorrect. PG was an extremely limited offensive player last year, once anyone focused on him... he got most of his 3-pt looks when defenses collapses on the others. Lance has an aspect to his game that we've missed --- a bulldog in the open court, an attacker at the rim. Hill is slightly better this year than last year. Lance is better offensively than PG was last year. PG is WAY better this year than he was last year, especially in realizing his potential, making contested shots, his handle is way improved, and he now has a few go-to moves. West is better than he was last year. Hibbert for the first half of the season was terrible, but his defensive presence went up several notches, and now his offensive game is starting to return to form. The starting unit is better offensively and defensively from last year. Our second unit has some ballers on it, as opposed to the train wreck it was last year. It may not be a world-beating bench, but it's better than last year. As a team, our offensive system has rounded into something stronger and less predictable than last year, and tougher to stop. We have a plethora of go-to plays now, with PG's step-back, or West's iso plays, Hill's pick and rolls, Lance's cuts and drives. There's a lot more straws stirring the drink this year. On our second unit, Mahinmi is really really impressive, on both sides of the ball. Hansbrough is returning to 2010 form and I've always loved his game. Augustin is starting to figure out what he needs to do. Orlando is becoming one heckuva offensive player, especially ISO plays and he's not bad defensively, either. Last year we absolutely could not score the ball in the playoffs... we may not be a juggernaut this year, but we'll at least score more points than last year, and our defense is something just short of spectacular this year. Our authority on the boards this year is also something to behold. We're better across the board, imo.. but it took us about 15 games to get to that point, and that's why our record doesn't show it. Anyone going off a base record comparison, to me, is only showing that haven't really been watching.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 03-30-2013 at 03:34 PM.
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  7. #29

    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    What's amazing is that our best player from last year is gone, and it's even arguable that we are better. But we really are a little better. Here's a twist in the way you can think about it.

    Paul is better than Danny was last year...mainly because of his superior D.
    Lance is about as good as Paul was last year.
    DWest is a lot better than last year.
    Roy is becoming better than he has ever been right now.
    Ian is a lot better than Lou.
    OJ is better than Barbosa. He can actually defend and I don't think he hurts you in the playoffs like Barbosa.
    Tyler is playing better this year. Less minutes but he's been more effective.

    Backup SF is probably weaker now that Granger is out. One player I miss is DJ. He's a lot better than Gerald Green.

    The PG position is another place we might be slightly weaker. But Lance makes up for that with his play and DJ is actually playing pretty well and reliably hits 3's now. So, even that's close.

    Overall though, I would much prefer taking this team into the playoffs.
    PG has more tools than Danny. He makes a big difference defensively, rebounding, and he has not hit his prime. Tyler has maintained the PF position when West went down. Losing West could have put the team on a losing streak but that didn't happen. West is healthier than last year. Lance showed that he could play as did OJ. I'm not too big on Mahinmi but he is an improvement over Lou.

    While Hill may not be a prototypical PG he is getting the job done and so is Roy. Is this team better? We can beat anyone on any given night. I didn't feel that last season. Barbosa was so good last year we didn't even bring him back and it wasn't because he was going to ask for much money.

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  9. #30
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    Last years offense was garbage. All it was was throw the ball in the post to Roy or West, and everybody else would stand around. Our offense has diversity this season. Paul George this year is better than Danny Granger last year. Paul seems to have more ways to score. Also, last years team didn't feature Lance Stephenson, who can be a game changer when on. Lance Stephenson this year is better than Paul George last year. I cannot remember many games last season where Paul George ignited his team, and carried us to victory. Throw in our superior defense this year, and its not really even close on which team is better
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    There is a big difference between playing ok defense and playing kickass defense
    And there's a big difference between playing ok offense and horrible offense.
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  13. #32
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    Quote Originally Posted by yoadknux View Post
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    And there's a big difference between playing ok offense and horrible offense.
    I agree. Our offense is significantly better than horrible after the All-Star Break
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  15. #33
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    Better however ,even with a better cast, the sequels never top the original.

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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I agree. Our offense is significantly better than horrible after the All-Star Break
    Lets just wait and see how well our offense fares in the playoffs against any solid defensive team. Without Danny stretching the floor and doing a bunch of scoring, it's gonna get even uglier
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    Quote Originally Posted by yoadknux View Post
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    Lets just wait and see how well our offense fares in the playoffs against any solid defensive team. Without Danny stretching the floor and doing a bunch of scoring, it's gonna get even uglier
    Chances are that without Danny it will be uglier and less effiecient, I agree.

    But our defense is way better than last year's. The improvement on the defensive side of the ball is significantly bigger than the drop-off in offensive production and efficiency.

    That's why I believe that this team is better than the last one. We would be even better with Danny, of course.

    As always we will have to wait and see
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  18. #36
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    I think this year's team is quite a bit better. The improvement of Paul George and David West is greater than the decline in Roy Hibbert and lack of Danny Granger. That said, the ceiling is basically the same. They should win a 1st round series and have a good chance to win any series that isn't against Miami.
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  19. #37
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    Quote Originally Posted by yoadknux View Post
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    Sure, the defense is probably better, but in the playoffs everybody play good defense anyway
    That is an interesting point. Let me make sure what you are suggesting here. Are you saying that in the playoffs all defenses are essentially the same. In other words sure the pacers are a much better defnesive team in the regular season than the Rockets, but once the playoffs begin the Rockets will step it up and be essentially as good or at least almost as good as the Pacers?

    is that you point? If that is your point I 100% disagree. habbits are formed in the regular season and those habbits cannot be changed just for the playoffs.

    Or is your point more - every team plays better defense in the playoffs than in the regular season, so even though the pacers defense will improve lets say for sake of discussion by 20% , the Rockets will improve by 50%. Pacers still better but the gap isn't as wide as the regular season. if that is your point I can agree for the most part.

    One thing I will say is in the playoffs a team's ability to manufacture offense against a locked in defense when the defense takes away your first 3 options on a play, or a team's ability to give the ball to one of their players and just have them create somehting is hugely important. And that is a problem for the pacers.

    I think this year's team is better by a decent margin. More experienced. Starting point guard who has bene the starter all season. Much healthier and better West. I think Roy's defense is better. PG obviously is much better - hard to even suggest how that has changed the team.

    Also worth mentioning is Lance. I won't suggest that Lance is better than Danny - not at all. But he brings something to the team that neither Danny or Paul bring. A swagger, an agreession, playmaking, ability to push the ball up.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 04-01-2013 at 08:51 AM.

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  21. #38
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    I think the biggest difference is that many people said last year's team only beat the Magic because Howard was injured and had no chance otherwise.

    I think this year's team would have had a legit shot (and, I think, would have beaten) last year's Orlando team with a healthy Howard.
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  22. #39
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    This year's team is not better offensively yet . . . but it will be. And, it may be better even as soon as this year's playoffs.

    Last year we had two threats from the perimeter: Granger and Hill. This year, we have two threats from the perimeter: PG and Hill.

    Last year, we had no one who could create something when defenses really locked down. This year we have Lance. I think it will make a huge difference in the playoffs.
    Last edited by McKeyFan; 04-01-2013 at 11:01 AM.
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    I think the biggest thing we lose from Danny's absence is end of game performance. He could really perform down the stretch. We still have West, who is better than last year, and Hill, who is more comfortable than last year, as great end of game performers. That will help us.

    Come playoff time, I think we need to quit experimenting with PG at the end of games and let him try again next year to do that. This year, stick with Hill and West.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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  25. #41
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    This year's team is not better offensively yet . . . but it will be. And, it may be better even as soon as this year's playoffs.

    Last year we had two threats from the perimeter: Granger and Hill. This year, we have two threats from the perimeter: PG and Hill.

    Last year, we had no one who could create something when defenses really locked down. This year we have Lance. I think it will make a huge difference in the playoffs.
    I also think that Paul george is a better creator than Danny Granger was.

    For comparison sake it is probably more useful to compare Paul this year with Danny last year and lance this year with Paul last year.

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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    I don't think you can call Barbosa and OJ a wash. OJ being able to actually play defense at all is a huge plus.

    2012-2013 has been much bumpier than last season for a variety of reasons, but the team has still put up a similar record so I have to say this year's team is probably better. Especially with Roy playing the way he is right now, it is probably not even close.

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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    We have a worse record, but are somehow much better (and its not close apparently)...make sense.

    We're pretty well the same, give or take. Bit different strengths and weaknesses, but an overall wash.
    Last year's winning % 63.6 this year's as of today 63.5. It's pretty similar, so yes maybe a wash, but I also think last year went much smoother for the team. There is no doubt this team has been far superior to last year's group since mid-December. We are 37-16 since losing at OKC to go to 10-11. That is a winning % of 69.8 and IMO is more indicative of this team's actual talent level once they found their stride.

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  29. #44
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    Quote Originally Posted by D0NT SH0OT ME View Post
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    2013 Hill > 2012 Hill
    2013 Stephenson << 2012 George
    2013 George = 2012 Granger
    2013 West >> 2012 West
    2013 Hibbert < 2012 Hibbert

    2013 Augustine << 2012 Collison
    2013 OJ = 2012 Barbosa
    2013 Green << 2012 Dhantay
    2013 Hansbrough = 2012 Hansbrough
    2013 Ian >> 2012 Amundson

    Based on individual talent, the 2012 team was better, but just slightly. Our win percentages (64% for 2012 and 63% for 2013) also indicate that last years team was slightly better than this years.
    I really disagree with several of these.

    I don't think 2013 Stephenson is that much worse than 2012 PG, if at all.

    2013 George is superior to 2012 Granger, not equal.

    I do not think 2013 Hibbert is worse than 2012 Hibbert. Certainly not sense the all star break, at worst it is a wash, but I actually think Roy is superior because he is an even better defender than he was last year.

    Augustin is worse than Collison, but is pretty slight.

    I would take OJ over Barbosa any day, even just because of his size. I still have nightmares of Barbosa just being abused on both ends because of how small he is in the playoffs.

    Hansbrough has actually been an improvement over what he was last year because his defense is much improved.

    You can't just look at the offense of the bench, OJ, Green, Young, Hansbrough, Ian is a much better group of defenders than last year's bench pu pu platter which got murdered on the defensive end in both playoff series.

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  31. #45
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    I think those bringing up end game plays are making a great point, do you guys remember how often last year we leaned on Hibbert for late game points, especially off of his hook shot? Could you imagine doing that this year? Now we have all sorts of late game looks, we still have the HIbbert post up, but we also have the West iso, the Hill-West PNR where G. Hill shows off his fantastic array of finishes (people need to remember this kid has a great bag of tricks in the paint, he did learn from Parker after all), and Paul even though it has been rocky at times, is slowly developing some go to stuff for late game situations too. Just a much more diverse array of tricks than we ever had last year.

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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    That is an interesting point. Let me make sure what you are suggesting here. Are you saying that in the playoffs all defenses are essentially the same. In other words sure the pacers are a much better defnesive team in the regular season than the Rockets, but once the playoffs begin the Rockets will step it up and be essentially as good or at least almost as good as the Pacers?

    is that you point? If that is your point I 100% disagree. habbits are formed in the regular season and those habbits cannot be changed just for the playoffs.

    Or is your point more - every team plays better defense in the playoffs than in the regular season, so even though the pacers defense will improve lets say for sake of discussion by 20% , the Rockets will improve by 50%. Pacers still better but the gap isn't as wide as the regular season. if that is your point I can agree for the most part.

    One thing I will say is in the playoffs a team's ability to manufacture offense against a locked in defense when the defense takes away your first 3 options on a play, or a team's ability to give the ball to one of their players and just have them create somehting is hugely important. And that is a problem for the pacers.


    I think this year's team is better by a decent margin. More experienced. Starting point guard who has bene the starter all season. Much healthier and better West. I think Roy's defense is better. PG obviously is much better - hard to even suggest how that has changed the team.

    Also worth mentioning is Lance. I won't suggest that Lance is better than Danny - not at all. But he brings something to the team that neither Danny or Paul bring. A swagger, an agreession, playmaking, ability to push the ball up.
    The bolded part is what I meant. I think regular season defense is not the same as playoffs defense. What I say is, well, maybe the Pacers are disciplined and coached in a way that they play tough defense during the regular season, but when the playoffs start then everybody's going to get physical, everybody's going to give their 100% on defense, and yeah, Pacers could possibly still be the best defensive team in the NBA even in the postseason, but like you said the gap will not be as big.
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    We are better. And so are the Heat, Knicks, and other low-grade to mid-grade teams. 76ers, Hawks, Boston and the Bulls took steps back. All in all we gained a little on our presence in the East. The West grew stronger than we have though.

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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    Quote Originally Posted by yoadknux View Post
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    The bolded part is what I meant. I think regular season defense is not the same as playoffs defense. What I say is, well, maybe the Pacers are disciplined and coached in a way that they play tough defense during the regular season, but when the playoffs start then everybody's going to get physical, everybody's going to give their 100% on defense, and yeah, Pacers could possibly still be the best defensive team in the NBA even in the postseason, but like you said the gap will not be as big.
    Except that I would point out that disciplined defense requires habits, and if pressed teams that did NOT focus on defense during the season can and often do fall back to what they did during the year.

    I think the level of INTENSITY of defense goes up for the playoffs, but I think a team that didn't play a solid defense in the regular season isn't suddenly going to click just because it is the first game of the first round. There has to be something for that intensity to build on.

    I guess it would be easier to say that you might see one-on-one defense improve, because a lot of that is focus, but team defense requires coordination formed by practice and usage, and that won't improve much.
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    Defenses are more likely to take the night off in the given season. Having said that our offense will struggle, even if our defense is better. We have yet to see our offense take the next step under Vogel. The defense has, but not scoring. The next level is when a good defense comes at us we can arise past their best and still bring what is needed.

    I don't think our defense compared to other defenses is the problem. It is our offense that has not shown a pattern of consistency in the face of a real defense. The opponents best defense.

    And when I suggested this and said for people to "slow your roll" I was marked a hater. When I said that people were fickle and riding the high too high and the low too low I was marked a cynic. Funny how we call the general fan base fickle when we are so easily swayed by the emotion of the day.

  37. #50
    Member Derek2k3's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    I think a healthy Danny, healthier David, much improved Lance and Paul would all add up to this years team being better. However, I feel it is just as good, despite not having Danny.

    The things this team could have done with a healthy Danny all season...people forget just how good he was.

    So, I say "just as good." Although, I can absolutely see the argument for "better".

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