View Poll Results: Is the 2013 Pacers team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 Pacers team?

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  • 2013 team is better

    80 74.77%
  • 2013 team is the same

    23 21.50%
  • 2013 team is worse

    4 3.74%
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Thread: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

  1. #1
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    Default Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    2012 rotation by the end:

    Hill/Collison
    George/Barbosa
    Granger/Jones
    West/Hansbrough
    Hibbert/Amundson

    2013 heading towards the playoffs:

    Hill/Augustin
    Stephenson/Johnson
    George/Green/Young
    West/Hansbrough
    Hibbert/Mahinmi

    Granger is obviously lost to knee injury, Augustin is worse than Collison, Jones was better than Green has been, IMO.

    On the other hand, Mahinmi is better than Amundson, Paul George is MUCH better, West is better, and I think Roy is better.

    I think Barbosa and Johnson are roughly a wash. I think Tyler's basically the same, sometimes he seems worse, other times he seems better.

    I'd have to say that at first glance I think it's about a push, IMO. Better in some ways, worse in others.

    Our defense is better, our offense is worse. But you might argue the improvement in D is more than the downgrade in O. Maybe.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    I know it will be more interesting to ask this again in about 2 months.

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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    This team is much better than last year's team. With George at his natural position playing extremely well at times, Hibbert turning into a defensive beast (and of late an offensive one as well) D. West back 100%, and Stephenson emerging, we are legit. Plus, We have a legitimate backup center, and a second round pick that stepped into Barbosa's role quite nicely. I absolutely love this (#1 rated D) team!
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    I will say worse, but not by a ton.

    No Granger/Barbosa/Almonson/Collison> Augustin/Stephenson/OJ/Mahinmi

    As bad as our bench was at the end of last season it is better than the bench is now IMO.

  6. #5
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    I will say worse, but not by a ton.

    No Granger/Barbosa/Almonson/Collison> Augustin/Stephenson/OJ/Mahinmi

    As bad as our bench was at the end of last season it is better than the bench is now IMO.

    I wonder if Lou Amundson has ever seen his name spelled that way.
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    I would say Starters are better this year (development of PG, Lance, Roy's D, and G Hill more comfortable

    but bench is far weaker
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  10. #7
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    2012 rotation by the end:

    Hill/Collison
    George/Barbosa
    Granger/Jones
    West/Hansbrough
    Hibbert/Amundson

    2013 heading towards the playoffs:

    Hill/Augustin
    Stephenson/Johnson
    George/Green/Young
    West/Hansbrough
    Hibbert/Mahinmi

    Granger is obviously lost to knee injury, Augustin is worse than Collison, Jones was better than Green has been, IMO.

    On the other hand, Mahinmi is better than Amundson, Paul George is MUCH better, West is better, and I think Roy is better.

    I think Barbosa and Johnson are roughly a wash. I think Tyler's basically the same, sometimes he seems worse, other times he seems better.

    I'd have to say that at first glance I think it's about a push, IMO. Better in some ways, worse in others.

    Our defense is better, our offense is worse. But you might argue the improvement in D is more than the downgrade in O.
    Maybe.
    That certainly is my impression.

    I am not sure that Barbosa and Johnson are a wash. OJ plays much better D, and I think the gap on that end of the floor is bigger than the offensive gap between the two.

    But again, impressions. Would be interesting to see the stats, which I am not going to attempt to find while on this crappy mobile interface.
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  12. #8

    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    I'd say its slightly better. It's a give and take kind of thing.

  13. #9
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    This team is better than last years, it's really not even close.

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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    The only major downgrade from the bench is Collison is gone now and DJ sucks. OJ = or better than Barbosa, Young/Green = Jones, Ian >>> Lou, Lou was kind of fun but seriously, there's a reason he's not playing minutes anymore.

    The starters are quite a bit better if Lance keeps up his good play, along with Hibbert.
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    We have a worse record, but are somehow much better (and its not close apparently)...make sense.

    We're pretty well the same, give or take. Bit different strengths and weaknesses, but an overall wash.

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  19. #12
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    I think some people are overrating last year's bench. This year's bench isn't spectacular, but I think if anything this year's is a little bit better.

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  21. #13
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    Quote Originally Posted by gummy View Post
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    That certainly is my impression.

    I am not sure that Barbosa and Johnson are a wash. OJ plays much better D, and I think the gap on that end of the floor is bigger than the offensive gap between the two.

    But again, impressions. Would be interesting to see the stats, which I am not going to attempt to find while on this crappy mobile interface.
    I can tell you that we allow 5 less points per game defensively than last year's squad did. The offensive numbers I take a with a grain of salt (-3 PPG) because of how bad we were offensively to start the season compared to how we've played on offense most nights since the All Star Break.
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  22. #14
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    I don't know why anyone would factor in the first fifteen games this year in any comparison. Their level of play since then is higher than at any point last year.

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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    We have a worse record, but are somehow much better (and its not close apparently)...make sense.

    We're pretty well the same, give or take. Bit different strengths and weaknesses, but an overall wash.
    not like last year was a shortened season or anything.....

    I think we are better. Not because of the regular season. But because i feel this is a better playoff team. Better attitude, PG's improvement, West is completely past his ACL injury, Stephenson is way better.

    I really don't think our bench is worse than last year. Our bench was bad last year. Ian is so much better than Lou and the back up C was such a weakness for us last year.

    I think this team is set up better for the playoffs. Obviously wish Granger would be playing because then it wouldnt even be a question. But the improvements of the starters (especially with how Roy has been playing the last month plus) will prevail imo.

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  26. #16
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    2013 Hill > 2012 Hill
    2013 Stephenson << 2012 George
    2013 George = 2012 Granger
    2013 West >> 2012 West
    2013 Hibbert < 2012 Hibbert

    2013 Augustine << 2012 Collison
    2013 OJ = 2012 Barbosa
    2013 Green << 2012 Dhantay
    2013 Hansbrough = 2012 Hansbrough
    2013 Ian >> 2012 Amundson

    Based on individual talent, the 2012 team was better, but just slightly. Our win percentages (64% for 2012 and 63% for 2013) also indicate that last years team was slightly better than this years.

  27. #17
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    Quote Originally Posted by D0NT SH0OT ME View Post
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    2013 Hill > 2012 Hill
    2013 Stephenson << 2012 George
    2013 George = 2012 Granger
    2013 West >> 2012 West
    2013 Hibbert < 2012 Hibbert

    2013 Augustine << 2012 Collison
    2013 OJ = 2012 Barbosa
    2013 Green << 2012 Dhantay
    2013 Hansbrough = 2012 Hansbrough
    2013 Ian >> 2012 Amundson

    Based on individual talent, the 2012 team was better, but just slightly. Our win percentages (64% for 2012 and 63% for 2013) also indicate that last years team was slightly better than this years.
    Is Stephenson from this year really 2 steps below Paul George?
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  28. #18
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    We have a worse record, but are somehow much better (and its not close apparently)...make sense.
    Last season's record: 42 - 24

    This season's record: 46 - 27

    If we win in Phoenix we will move up to 47 - 27. 47 - 27 stands for a 63.513% win percentage.

    42 - 24 stands for a 63.636% win percentage.

    So, one can say that last year's team had a better record but it's not by far.

    Here's the thing, though.

    This team started the season horribly. We were 4 - 7 in the first 11 games. We were 10 - 11 in the first 21 games. We were hardly a .500 team back then. We started playing well around mid December.

    At the end of the 2012 calendar year, we were standing at 18 - 13 after our win against Memphis. We are currently standing at 46 - 27. That means that our record in 2013 is 28 - 14.

    28 - 14 stands for a 66.666% win percentage.

    This team has been better in 2013 than it was in 2012. That much is clear to me and this is why I believe that this team is better than the last year one.

    Also, next year's team will probably be better than this year's team as well. Our players will continue to improve and grow as a core so chances are that we will only get better
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  29. #19
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    What's amazing is that our best player from last year is gone, and it's even arguable that we are better. But we really are a little better. Here's a twist in the way you can think about it.

    Paul is better than Danny was last year...mainly because of his superior D.
    Lance is about as good as Paul was last year.
    DWest is a lot better than last year.
    Roy is becoming better than he has ever been right now.
    Ian is a lot better than Lou.
    OJ is better than Barbosa. He can actually defend and I don't think he hurts you in the playoffs like Barbosa.
    Tyler is playing better this year. Less minutes but he's been more effective.

    Backup SF is probably weaker now that Granger is out. One player I miss is DJ. He's a lot better than Gerald Green.

    The PG position is another place we might be slightly weaker. But Lance makes up for that with his play and DJ is actually playing pretty well and reliably hits 3's now. So, even that's close.

    Overall though, I would much prefer taking this team into the playoffs.

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  31. #20
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    My answer is yes.

    Better defensively.

    Worse offensively.

    Better set up for grinding it out in the playoffs.

    Not as mature overall to have the mental toughness and discipline the playoffs require.

    Overall, likely very similar results for both regular season and possibly the playoffs, as long as West can physically maintain most of what he has done during the regular season and as long as Paul and Lance let the game come to them a little more than they might when the stage gets bigger in the playoffs without trying to dominate everything offensively and making poor decisions.

    So, yes to all three options.

  32. #21

    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    We have a worse record, but are somehow much better (and its not close apparently)...make sense.

    We're pretty well the same, give or take. Bit different strengths and weaknesses, but an overall wash.
    A few reasons why comparing the records may not tell the whole story:

    1) Point differential. Last year's was 3.3, this year's is 5.2. Point differential isn't always predictive, but it's a good indicator of talent.
    2) Schedule. Both years the Pacers have had some luck with the way the schedule fell, but last year's was especially so. Because of the shortened season, 72.7% of their games were against the East, compared to a normal year where it's 63.4%. And the three West teams they got twice last year were Minnesota, Golden State, and New Orleans, all of which had under a 40% winning percentage last year.
    3) Injuries. Not a big difference either way, but this year's team has had slightly more even when throwing out the loss of Granger. And of course the loss of Granger did cause a tougher transition than integrating West did for last year's team.

    On the flip side, the biggest argument I could make for last year is that the Pacers were so conservative with minutes during the regular season. Last year the Pacers had only 1 player in the top 70 in minutes (Granger at 41). This year the Pacers have 3 in the top 50, including George at 13th. It certainly could be argued that the Pacers could have been more dominant last year if they had been willing to push their starters a little harder.

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  34. #22
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    We have a worse record, but are somehow much better (and its not close apparently)...make sense.

    We're pretty well the same, give or take. Bit different strengths and weaknesses, but an overall wash.
    I too am surprised by the overwhelming "better" votes. I appreciate the optimism, but this team is awfully similar overall. And that's a good thing. We were very good last year, too.

    Generally in sports, especially sports of a long season, you are what your record is.

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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    I say better, but disagree in saying that OJ is the same as Barbosa was. OJ looks to be a more fluid player and is pretty smart, but Barbosa is quick, VERY quick. You could say Lance replaced that void but we also lost Collison, so we're still slower.
    But overall I think our beefing up down low has benefitted the team more than the weakening out top has hurt us. The size down low makes it tough for anyone to defend for 48 minutes. In any game, either of Hibbert and West could go for 25, and any of Mahinmi, Hansbrough, and Pendergraph could go for 15. Same with the guards. As long as one or two guys get hot, we can beat anyone, IMO.
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  36. #24
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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    I think we're better this year. We've lost Granger, but George, Lance, and West are better than they were last year at this time. Hibbs is better defensively, and while his offense has struggled for a good chunk of the year, it looks like it's coming back.

    As for the bench, Mahinmi is better than anything we had at center last season, and even though Collison and Barbosa were better than what we have currently, I think the center upgrade is more meaningful as Augustin and OJ bring other dimensions to our team that those two didn't (3 pt shooting-DJ, defense-OJ).

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    Default Re: Is the 2013 team better, worse, or the same as the 2012 team?

    Honestly, I'd pick last year's team. This year's team has a huge lack of efficient scorers, lack of shooters that stretch the floor, and lack of guys that can do something on their own (This year we have Lance, but last year we had Collison and Barbosa that could at least break defenses with their quickness). I mean, even with all that, last year's team had an extremely predictable offense. This year's team is even worse on that aspect, and I think it'll show when the playoffs start. Sure, the defense is probably better, but in the playoffs everybody play good defense anyway and you need good offensive plans to get somewhere, and I think that's a big issue for us this year
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