View Poll Results: Should the Pacers sit Danny for the rest of the year?

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Thread: Is it time to pull the plug on Grangerís comeback? Conrad Brunner

  1. #51
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it time to pull the plug on Grangerís comeback? Conrad Brunner

    I would love to see Granger come back and contribute at a high level. But clearly...some here need to begin to adjust their expectations of that happening. Also, there's no need to attack people who do not expect him to return this season.

    Also, talk of this implying Vogel is not making the right decisions is ludicrous. Vogel will be determining who plays (that is the coaches job) and if Granger is gimpy on April 15th, he will not be in the rotation. Get ready for that.

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    Default Re: Is it time to pull the plug on Grangerís comeback? Conrad Brunner

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Also, talk of this implying Vogel is not making the right decisions is ludicrous. Vogel will be determining who plays (that is the coaches job) and if Granger is gimpy on April 15th, he will not be in the rotation. Get ready for that.
    Bingo! Someone who finally gets it. And that is precisely my point. That Vogel WILL make that decision and would not attempt to play a gimpy player. At least not longer than the minute or so necessary to either discover or confirm that he is necessary. For that reason, "common sense", if I may use Vnzla's term, would indicate that it would not be necessary to pull the plug. Vogel's own observation of Granger's ability to play will resolve that in due course.

    Now, if you can successfully convey that to what's-his-name, I'd be most appreciative.

    Not taking anything away from you, but I do find it amusing that your post has been thanked by this individual, when you have essentially paraphrased what I previously stated.

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    Default Re: Is it time to pull the plug on Grangerís comeback? Conrad Brunner

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23 View Post
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    Bingo! Someone who finally gets it. And that is precisely my point. That Vogel WILL make that decision and would not attempt to play a gimpy player. At least not longer than the minute or so necessary to either discover or confirm that he is necessary. For that reason, "common sense", if I may use Vnzla's term, would indicate that it would not be necessary to pull the plug. Vogel's own observation of Granger's ability to play will resolve that in due course.

    Now, if you can successfully convey that to what's-his-name, I'd be most appreciative.

    Not taking anything away from you, but I do find it amusing that your post has been thanked by this individual, when you have essentially paraphrased what I previously stated.
    The main difference here is whether people think Granger is going to return...and I guess at what level. Here are some of the likely scenarios. Notice that most are not ideal:

    1) Danny returns in two weeks. He is able to play the rest of the season, gets in game shape and gives us 12-15 off the bench and a few really good outings of 20ppg. This is best case. If only I thought this would happen.

    2) Danny returns in two weeks. He cannot play too much, but he does make it through the playoffs giving us maybe 10 a game and has a couple good outings in the 15-18ppg range. He is still not that mobile, so his defense is lacking. He is basically as valuable on the floor as Orlando Johnson who will be able to bring better D.

    3) Danny returns in two weeks. He plays for a few games and the same thing happens. He sits until mid April and plays sparingly in the playoffs and is basically ineffective shooting for a poor average and is unable to defend. Our rotations suffer and our young players don't get game experience. Our decision to try him out hurts us in the playoffs.

    4) Danny returns around April 5th to get in game shape by the playoffs. He doesn't really get in game shape due to the long layoff and the amount of time he can be on the floor. He shoots for a poor percentage because he has no legs. He is not able to defend because he lacks the lower body strength and quickness to guard LeBron due to the layoff. He cannot guard DWade obviously. Our rotations suffer and our young players cannot contribute much due to limited game experience. Our decision to try him out hurts us in the playoffs.

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    Default Re: Is it time to pull the plug on Grangerís comeback? Conrad Brunner

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    3) Danny returns in two weeks. He plays for a few games and the same thing happens. He sits until mid April and plays sparingly in the playoffs and is basically ineffective shooting for a poor average and is unable to defend. Our rotations suffer and our young players don't get game experience. Our decision to try him out hurts us in the playoffs.

    4) Danny returns around April 5th to get in game shape by the playoffs. He doesn't really get in game shape due to the long layoff and the amount of time he can be on the floor. He shoots for a poor percentage because he has no legs. He is not able to defend because he lacks the lower body strength and quickness to guard LeBron due to the layoff. He cannot guard DWade obviously. Our rotations suffer and our young players cannot contribute much due to limited game experience. Our decision to try him out hurts us in the playoffs.
    If Danny plays "sparingly" exactly which Young Players is he preventing from getting Game Experience?

    Essentially, you are postulating a fifth option, that Danny plays poorly and still gets 6th - 8th man minutes. Anything else - where Danny gets Gerald Green/Jeff Pendergraph minutes - isn't going to prevent any one of the Young Players from getting plenty of experience.
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    Default Re: Is it time to pull the plug on Grangerís comeback? Conrad Brunner

    Danny, by seniority and loyalty alone, would get extra minutes (and games) to right himself as well as a longer leash for mistakes. So Granger under no circumstances would get only a couple of minutes unless he just took himself out of the game. IMHO...
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    Default Re: Is it time to pull the plug on Grangerís comeback? Conrad Brunner

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Danny, by seniority and loyalty alone, would get extra minutes (and games) to right himself as well as a longer leash for mistakes. So Granger under no circumstances would get only a couple of minutes unless he just took himself out of the game. IMHO...
    I agree that Danny might get a bit more leeway, initially, but as the playoffs draw closer, the length of that leash will have a direct correlation to his ability to contribute.

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    Default Re: Is it time to pull the plug on Grangerís comeback? Conrad Brunner

    Quote Originally Posted by A-Train View Post
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    I agree that Danny might get a bit more leeway, initially, but as the playoffs draw closer, the length of that leash will have a direct correlation to his ability to contribute.
    This is basically the way I personally see it. It's possible that Granger might be given a little latitude in whatever regular season games remain after(if) he returns. But if he's not ready to be a starter or heavy contributor well before the playoffs, I can't really seeing Vogel having that expectation of him during the playoffs.

    And, as rotations are tightened and minutes reduced in the playoffs for subs anyway, if Granger cannot regain a starting role his minutes are likely going to be reduced anyway. Typically, in any individual game in he playoffs, the subs who quickly prove themselves to be performing well usually get the lions share of minutes in that game. So, if Granger does get in off the bench and is doing well, frankly I have no problem with him getting additional minutes. Like any other player, that doesn't mean he will get extra minutes he following game, nor does it mean he will be h closer.

    Bottom line is that I trust Vogel's ability to make those decisions and use, or even not use, Granger accordingly.

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    Default Re: Is it time to pull the plug on Grangerís comeback? Conrad Brunner

    Quote Originally Posted by A-Train View Post
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    I agree that Danny might get a bit more leeway, initially, but as the playoffs draw closer, the length of that leash will have a direct correlation to his ability to contribute.
    Right... But as the playoffs draw near every minute Danny gets is at the expense of someone else's minutes and game experience as well as the team as a whole playing together with the rotations as they'll be in the playoffs. IOW, getting more comfortable with each other on the court.

    Total non-issue if Danny is successfully playing the role he'll be playing come playoff time. Potential major issue if it's wasted time only to see Granger shutdown again with shrinking minutes, sub par contributions, and/or finally put on ice for the season while his replacement sits.
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    Default Re: Is it time to pull the plug on Grangerís comeback? Conrad Brunner

    How many games has Danny actually played in?

    IIRC, if it is less than 10 at the end of the season, his payroll for this season would be picked up by insurance. This is definitely not a small matter to the Pacers front office, and I am sure it is being factored in heavily at this late date.

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    Default Re: Is it time to pull the plug on Grangerís comeback? Conrad Brunner

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    The main difference here is whether people think Granger is going to return...and I guess at what level. Here are some of the likely scenarios. Notice that most are not ideal:

    1) Danny returns in two weeks. He is able to play the rest of the season, gets in game shape and gives us 12-15 off the bench and a few really good outings of 20ppg. This is best case. If only I thought this would happen.

    2) Danny returns in two weeks. He cannot play too much, but he does make it through the playoffs giving us maybe 10 a game and has a couple good outings in the 15-18ppg range. He is still not that mobile, so his defense is lacking. He is basically as valuable on the floor as Orlando Johnson who will be able to bring better D.

    3) Danny returns in two weeks. He plays for a few games and the same thing happens. He sits until mid April and plays sparingly in the playoffs and is basically ineffective shooting for a poor average and is unable to defend. Our rotations suffer and our young players don't get game experience. Our decision to try him out hurts us in the playoffs.

    4) Danny returns around April 5th to get in game shape by the playoffs. He doesn't really get in game shape due to the long layoff and the amount of time he can be on the floor. He shoots for a poor percentage because he has no legs. He is not able to defend because he lacks the lower body strength and quickness to guard LeBron due to the layoff. He cannot guard DWade obviously. Our rotations suffer and our young players cannot contribute much due to limited game experience. Our decision to try him out hurts us in the playoffs.


    These scenarios are just your opinions and I think unfortunately the hopes for some of the poster on here which is something I really can't relate to. It's almost like some can't wait to post something negative from some internet blogger who has no insight into the Pacers as if it's fact. I would hope that every Pacer fan would want Granger back to a point of contributing this year.
    If these were the only scenarios then there is no hope for Granger and if that were really the case he'd already be shut down. The Pacers haven't said anything other then he's able to play if we need him to and they're just playing it safe. I'll still take Vogel's word over some internet blogger no matter how many times someone on here post that Granger's done.
    The reality is that he's still penciled in to be the starter by Vogel once he's up to it, Vogel hasn't said anything to indicate he's changed his position on that. So the fans who only want Lance to be the starter and Granger to fall behind Johnson in the rotation need to face the fact that this is still very possible. It might not happen but we'll know soon enough. If he can't stay in the lineup then it's a done deal but he's only played 5 games. I'd like to at least give him 10 more games before deciding OJ is a better option even if those are the last 10 games of the year.

    5. Granger returns in 2 games, still has some soreness but starts to play through it. He picks up his minutes in about 5-8 games to 20-25 then is inserted in the starting lineup giving us time to adjust the rotation with Lance in the second unit. By playoff time he gives us a scoring lift and a better defensive combination at the 2/3 with Granger and PG. If the Pacers didn't think this were still possible I think he'd be shut down by now.

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    Default Re: Is it time to pull the plug on Grangerís comeback? Conrad Brunner

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    There are a few reasons you "call it" at some point.

    First is that if Granger ends up not being available for the playoffs, Orlando Johnson wouldn't be sitting watching Danny try to make a comeback at the last minute. Orlando would instead get more in-game experience which he will need being the first wing off the bench in the playoffs. Also, continuity leading into the playoffs. Tightening up our rotations. These are all factors. With Granger in and out, that eliminates the possibility of the team getting in a rhythm.

    There is also the mental aspect. I think it helps the team as a whole prepare mentally knowing what to expect...whether they will definitely be in games.

    Finally, a rusty Danny Granger without his legs back attempting to play playoff basketball is not as good as Orlando Johnson.

    Also, let's be really clear about something. The Danny Granger we all know and love is not coming back this year. It's simply too late. A fake immitation might be available but that will take some luck and even then he's only a minor improvement over the alternatives.
    I disagree with it, but I like your response. I really enjoy when we can mix it up on topics like this without it being about someone being dumb, especially since my online tone probably comes across as more d***ish than it's meant to.


    We agree that the real topic is probably "what will Danny be by the playoffs", and that "normal" seems very unlikely.

    So what we disagree on is the impact any "return" minutes Danny gets from now until then. Orlando is NOT getting playoff minutes. I mean at this point I already trust him, and he probably will get some playoff minutes because that's just how things go, but as much as OJ has been great in his rookie year for a 2nd round pick, the team has 6-7 other players that will see 20-40 minutes every night. So the idea that we must prep OJ for the playoffs is just wrong to me. This whole season is a prep for next season, and right now Paul, Lance, Hill and Hibbert are all still the primary "development projects" on the team. As much as I like OJ, as a player and person, everything you get from him right now is just bonus.


    If anything I think you see Danny help ease back the minutes and scoring load of the other main 4 (not Lance) which would be nice coming toward the playoffs.


    And as I said before regarding "continuity", the team is an inconsistent wreck and 20 games to go is way too late to fix it. They are trying to adjust their passing game and it's been hot and cold, and we've seen some defensive switching errors that they are still trying to work out. That's the only projects they'll even remotely be able to work on the rest of the way. They won't be fine tuning the rotations, and to be realistic the starting 5 already has tons of minutes together and shouldn't still need Danny to sit in order to "find their rhythm".


    When Danny has played, with the bench primarily, he hasn't disrupted them nearly as much as the rest of the bench has. Only Young seems like a reliable contributor every night, and he's not giving you reliable scoring, only reliable "glue guy, team defense" play. DJ is beyond streaky on offense, worthless on defense. Ian is still struggling with his hands and fouling too much. Tyler is slipping into obscurity with this roster. Green is already there.

    OJ coming on to be a solid go-to scorer for 6-8 minutes is very promising and could end up helping in the playoffs, but even where he's at right now he's not really showing any more than Danny did while playing rusty. By game 3-4 Danny was giving you the same 6-10 points and using his length to defend and rebound. OJ gives the team a guy to help fill a Danny void if it's forced on them, but as nice as he's been he hasn't looked "normal Danny" level at all and won't by the end of this season no matter what PT he gets.



    Vogel is not going to "give up" on DJ, Green, Tyler, OJ or Young for the rest of the year, so why would he give up on Danny? DJ and Tyler seem unlikely to be back next year, so why "waste" the last 20 games developing them any more than trying to rehab Danny? Because someone has to play and you'd like to keep the starters minutes a little under control for the next 4-5 weeks.

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    Default Re: Is it time to pull the plug on Grangerís comeback? Conrad Brunner

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    How many games has Danny actually played in?

    IIRC, if it is less than 10 at the end of the season, his payroll for this season would be picked up by insurance. This is definitely not a small matter to the Pacers front office, and I am sure it is being factored in heavily at this late date.
    I did find something on this in Larry Coon's FAQ:

    71. Are player contracts insured?

    There is a league-wide policy that insures the contracts of around 150 players each season. Each team submits at least five players for coverage from their five most expensive contracts based on total remaining salary (with two or more years remaining) and their five most expensive contracts based on current season salary. Teams also have the option of submitting additional names for coverage. The carrier has the right to exclude 14 contracts per season, such as when they consider a player with a very large remaining contract to be a medical risk. For example they excluded Luol Deng in 2008-09 because he had $71 million remaining and a history of back injuries. The list of excluded players changes each year, so a player who is not covered one season might be covered the following season.If an insured player is disabled, there is a 41 game waiting period, after which the insurance company pays 80% of the guaranteed portion of the player's base salary, up to $175,000 per regular season game. Once a player is covered, the carrier can't exclude the player for the remainder of his current contract.If the player is traded, his new team receives the benefit -- for example, even though Cuttino Mobley's heart condition was discovered prior to his trade to the Knicks, the Knicks received the insurance payout.

    This doesn't seem to agree with the 10 game situation to which you referred.

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    Default Re: Is it time to pull the plug on Grangerís comeback? Conrad Brunner

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    How many games has Danny actually played in?

    IIRC, if it is less than 10 at the end of the season, his payroll for this season would be picked up by insurance. This is definitely not a small matter to the Pacers front office, and I am sure it is being factored in heavily at this late date.


    Well that puts a whole other interesting spin on things! Hmmm.
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    Default Re: Is it time to pull the plug on Grangerís comeback? Conrad Brunner

    Knee injuries are the toughest injuries to overcome in basketball. I hope he doesn't morph into Brandon Roy where he has basically no cartilage left and has to retire.

    We need him off the bench for the playoffs!

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    Default Re: Is it time to pull the plug on Grangerís comeback? Conrad Brunner

    Quote Originally Posted by The Future View Post
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    Knee injuries are the toughest injuries to overcome in basketball. I hope he doesn't morph into Brandon Roy where he has basically no cartilage left and has to retire.

    We need him off the bench for the playoffs!
    From what I understand, Danny has a problem with the tendon(s) in his knee...not a cartilage problem. I don't think it's quite as serious...although it doesn't feel that way right now.

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    Default Re: Is it time to pull the plug on Grangerís comeback? Conrad Brunner

    Mike Wells was on Grady and Big Joe this morning. He said he tried to talk to Danny in Orlando but that Danny immediately said "no comment". Wells said he was going to ask Frank about it at practice tomorrow.

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    Default Re: Is it time to pull the plug on Grangerís comeback? Conrad Brunner

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Mike Wells was on Grady and Big Joe this morning. He said he tried to talk to Danny in Orlando but that Danny immediately said "no comment". Wells said he was going to ask Frank about it at practice tomorrow.

    Maybe the team did shut him down? He was all kinds of ineffective when he came back.

    Or maybe he's just angry/disappointed to still be bothered by the knee after all this time.
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    Default Re: Is it time to pull the plug on Grangerís comeback? Conrad Brunner

    They need him for a title run
    "We want Miami"

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    Default Re: Is it time to pull the plug on Grangerís comeback? Conrad Brunner

    @MikeWellsNBA: Vogel said Granger (knee) will be out the next 3 games and be evaluated at the end of the week.



    It's normal.

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    Default Re: Is it time to pull the plug on Grangerís comeback? Conrad Brunner

    @ScottAgness: Coach Vogel said Granger will miss at least the next three games and will be re-evaluated at the end of the week.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 03-12-2013 at 03:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Is it time to pull the plug on Grangerís comeback? Conrad Brunner

    @ScottAgness: Vogel cautioned that even if Granger is cleared later this week, it doesn't mean that he'll return to game action right away.

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    Default Re: Is it time to pull the plug on Grangerís comeback? Conrad Brunner

    Mike Wells ‏@MikeWellsNBA
    Vogel said Granger (knee) will be out the next 3 games and be evaluated at the end of the week.

    Conrad Brunner ‏@1070Bruno
    Granger will miss at least next three games. Status will be re-evaluated at the end of the week.

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    Default Re: Is it time to pull the plug on Grangerís comeback? Conrad Brunner

    This sucks.

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    Default Re: Is it time to pull the plug on Grangerís comeback? Conrad Brunner

    There is no positive spin to put on this. It just is what it is and we have to soldier on. If he can contribute anything at all this year it will be a positive but right now I am preparing myselft for the fact that at best I think he is going to be a part time contributer and in reality I am preparing myself for something much much worse.


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    Default Re: Is it time to pull the plug on Grangerís comeback? Conrad Brunner

    I am just hoping we get a 10 ppg guy off the bench for the playoffs

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