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Thread: Odd Thoughts: Bull Chips....

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Bull Chips....

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    How much time is worth investing in a rookie big going on 25?
    None, reading a lot of comments on here.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Bull Chips....

    If the improvement of our last 4 year ACC big 1st round draft pick isn't enough to get you excited about getting another one, I don't know what is.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Bull Chips....

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    Lance was 19 year old project who spent one relatively productive season in college when he was drafted. Plumlee was a 24 year old senior who just posted career bests of 6.6 pts and 7.1 rebs on a team who got knocked out of the NCAA tournament by Lehigh.

    Apples to oranges.
    So players can't keep progressing after the age of 23 or something? Just because you're older, doesn't mean your potential is tapped out. There would never be any reason to draft a college sr, unless he's ready to walk in and play from day one, if this is line of thinking is true.

    I'm not saying Plumlee is good, or he will improve, I'm just challenging the logic that a 24y/o is a wasted pick, just because he's 24. 24yr olds can and do keep progressing regardless how many years they went to college.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Bull Chips....

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    When your 2nd pick is better than your 1st pick, I don't call that doing ok. Who is to say the present FO couldn't have done better with the 1st pick? Then we'll never know, but I'd like to think they could have.

    Here is my feeling. Bird was leaving, and wasn't going to be part of what Walsh and Morway were going to be doing this offspring to bolster the bench. Bird drafts a 24 yo rookie to be a b/u 5. How many years does it take to develop a big man? The Pacers need a good b/u 5 NOW, not 3-5 years from now, thus enter Ian Mahinmi. Even if Plumlee is drafted as the future b/u PF he's not remotely close to filling that position either. Pacers are in "win now mode" and no one should know this better than Bird, yet he drafts a player who is lucky if he gets to sit on the bench, is constantly inactive, or plays in the D-League periodically. This just wasn't the correct player to have drafted. My guess is that out of the next 80-90% of players drafted after Plumlee to #45 have more PT this season than Plumlee. I wouldn't be surprised if the Lakers pick at #60 Rob't Sacre hasn't played more than Plumlee!

    Really, what are the assets of Plumlee besides size? Please don't tell me his high jumping ability, b/c I've watched Plumlee play all his games this season. His brother Mason, who plays at Duke, looks to be a better player. Why do I have a feeling that Miles Plumlee will be viewed as the next Scott Hastings? Just another wasted pick.
    You're right, getting value out of a second round pick isn't okay, it's pretty damn good.

    BTW rotation players picked AFTER Plumlee: Draymond Green and OJ.

    A few other guys are getting spot minutes due to injuries or roster ineptness.

    I don't particularly like Plumlee, but lets not act like there was a ton of talent to choose from.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Bull Chips....

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So players can't keep progressing after the age of 23 or something? Just because you're older, doesn't mean your potential is tapped out. There would never be any reason to draft a college sr, unless he's ready to walk in and play from day one, if this is line of thinking is true.
    For the most part, I pretty much agree with this but that's not to say they can't improve. J.J. Redick is a very good, though rare, example of senior college players improving in the NBA. But it's highly unlikely to me that bad college seniors are going to improve enough to be productive NBA players.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Bull Chips....

    I just remember the days when we were constantly hearing that Bird didn't understand talent, that Lance was a wasted pick, yadda yadda yadda. I would think having egg all over some faces would give reason to pause and say "lets atleast give this two seasons to play out" before you start drawing lines in the sand.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Bull Chips....

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    For the most part, I pretty much agree with this but that's not to say they can't improve. J.J. Redick is a very good, though rare, example of senior college players improving in the NBA. But it's highly unlikely to me that bad college seniors are going to improve enough to be productive NBA players.
    Greivis Vasquez? not that I disagree with you about Plumlee though.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Bull Chips....

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I just remember the days when we were constantly hearing that Bird didn't understand talent, that Lance was a wasted pick, yadda yadda yadda. I would think having egg all over some faces would give reason to pause and say "lets atleast give this two seasons to play out" before you start drawing lines in the sand.
    Again, comparing the development of a 19 year old second round pick and a 24 year old 1st round pick seems awfully silly to me.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Bull Chips....

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    Again, comparing the development of a 19 year old second round pick and a 24 year old 1st round pick seems awfully silly to me.
    I just see basketball players. I don't try and evaluate someone's potential, based soley off their age. While you're comparing apples and oranges, I'm comparing players.

    If you want to bring another point in as to why you don't think he'll improve, other than age, I'm all ears.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Bull Chips....

    I just don't understand why people are so quick to rush to judgement. Not like you get points for getting the answer correct first. Is it really that hard to just hit the pause button?

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Bull Chips....

    By the way I don't think you guys understand the value of drafting players for the Mad Ants, it looks to me like the Pacers are trying to win two championships at the same time, I wonder who are they going to match with Plumlee next year with the pick they didn't want to trade, I'm excited to find that out...

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Bull Chips....

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Greivis Vasquez? not that I disagree with you about Plumlee though.
    Vasquez is another rare example. I didn't say seniors can't improve. I don't think bad seniors can improve enough to be productive NBA players. Of course, the list of bad seniors who get drafted is pretty short. The list of bad seniors, other than Miles Plumlee, who are taken in the first round is basically nonexistent.

    Seriously, has there been a player in the last 25 years who never averaged more than 7 points per game in 4 college seasons that eventually became a productive NBA player? I very, very much doubt it but would love to be proven incorrect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    Vasquez is another rare example. I didn't say seniors can't improve. I don't think bad seniors can improve enough to be productive NBA players. Of course, the list of bad seniors who get drafted is pretty short. The list of bad seniors, other than Miles Plumlee, who are taken in the first round is basically nonexistent.

    Seriously, has there been a player in the last 25 years who never averaged more than 7 points per game in 4 college seasons that eventually became a productive NBA player? I very, very much doubt it but would love to be proven incorrect.
    Not exactly answering your question, but Jeff Foster only averaged 9.8 points per game for his four year career at the lowly Texas State and went on to a productive career.

    If Plumlee had went to a similarly small school and led the nation in rebounding we'd be lauded for our great scouting. Instead he went to a major program and had his game picked apart for four years.

    Lets not forget Foster only appeared in 19 games for a total of 86 minutes his rookie year as well.

    I'm not saying he'll definitely approach Foster's level of production for his career. But as a player who had a similar college career (albeit at a different level of competition) and similar physical attributes, the jury is currently still out and he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Bull Chips....

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor S View Post
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    Not exactly answering your question, but Jeff Foster only averaged 9.8 points per game for his four year career at the lowly Texas State and went on to a productive career.

    If Plumlee had went to a similarly small school and led the nation in rebounding we'd be lauded for our great scouting. Instead he went to a major program and had his game picked apart for four years.

    Lets not forget Foster only appeared in 19 games for a total of 86 minutes his rookie year as well.

    I'm not saying he'll definitely approach Foster's level of production for his career. But as a player who had a similar college career (albeit at a different level of competition) and similar physical attributes, the jury is currently still out and he deserves the benefit of the doubt.
    Jeff Foster scored 12.8 pts and 10.2 rebs as a junior and 14.2 pts and 11.3 rebs as a senior. He nearly doubled Plumlee's collegiate production.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    Jeff Foster scored 12.8 pts and 10.2 rebs as a junior and 14.2 pts and 11.3 rebs as a senior. He nearly doubled Plumlee's collegiate production.
    True, but their per 36 numbers aren't that different. Miles averaged 11.5 points and 11 rebounds per 36 minutes over those two years. Foster averaged 15.9 and 13.5. When you factor in the different levels of competition, I consider it similar if not an advantage for Plumlee. If he were at Texas State, Plumlee probably would've averaged 14 and 11 if not more.

    Who knows how his career will play out? I'm just saying it's too soon to claim bust. Unless you were calling bust after Foster's rookie year too.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Bull Chips....

    Foster also started, played 30 min, and wasn't playing next to the eventual all time rebounding leader of his school.

    Miles was brought in for rebounding and defense, I personally have seen nothing that makes me think he can't do those things at an NBA is level. Any offense is gravy.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Bull Chips....

    Greg Ostertag averaged 7.1 points in his four-year stay at Kansas, before going on to be a reasonably productive NBA center for the next 12 years.

    Anyway, Plumlee was an excellent rebounder in college, has the physical tools to be a great defender (size with off-the-charts athleticism), and, while he's not a big scorer, he at least proved to be efficient, shooting 61% from the floor as a senior. Do I expect him to be a star? Of course not. But I see no reason why he can't be a valuable role player.

    By the way, it's not just Pacers sunshiners who were okay with the Plumlee pick:

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    Adrian Wojnarowski @WojYahooNBA
    Surprised at criticism directed at Indiana for Miles Plumlee at No. 26. Excellent value choice there. He was high on several draft boards.
    The general feeling around draft time was that Plumlee's game would translate well, and that he's one of those players who could likely end up better in the NBA than in college.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Bull Chips....

    How was Miles in his D league games? I am assuming he was badly overmatched there, too, but I could be wrong.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Bull Chips....

    Quote Originally Posted by Goyle View Post
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    1) You're right, getting value out of a second round pick isn't okay, it's pretty damn good.

    2) BTW rotation players picked AFTER Plumlee: Draymond Green and OJ.

    3) I don't particularly like Plumlee, but lets not act like there was a ton of talent to choose from.

    1) I never said that. Juice is a really nice pick. Plumlee was a poor pick.

    2) I guess you must have forgotten GS #30 pick Festus Ezeli team mate of Green. Ezeli has played in 56 games starting 39 of those games while logging 14:48 MPG. Then there is Jeff Taylor drafted at #31 who has played in 58 games starting 26 games while playing 21 MPG. Both were drafted 4 & 5 spots after Plumlee. I'm surprised Taylor wasn't drafted in the 1st round. Plently of other players drafted after Plumlee who are getting rookie minutes unlike Plumlee.

    3) There was enough talent drafted after Plumlee to make the pick of Plumlee a poor pick.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Bull Chips....

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    By the way I don't think you guys understand the value of drafting players for the Mad Ants, it looks to me like the Pacers are trying to win two championships at the same time, I wonder who are they going to match with Plumlee next year with the pick they didn't want to trade, I'm excited to find that out...

    Cough cough choke choke. Nice zinger! One of the 2 best laughs I've had today.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Bull Chips....

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    Miles Plumlee's NBADL stats page

    14 points, 9.5 boards in 28 minutes ain't bad, but he is averaging a Paul George-like 4 TOs per contest. I'm pretty sure you can watch the games on YouTube. I saw the first few, but I'll withhold my judgment because a) small sample size and b) I'm not a great scout for talent.
    I would like to compare those numbers with the all star Magnum Role and the MVP Gerald Green.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Bull Chips....

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    How was Miles in his D league games? I am assuming he was badly overmatched there, too, but I could be wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    Miles Plumlee's NBADL stats page

    14 points, 9.5 boards in 28 minutes ain't bad, but he is averaging a Paul George-like 4 TOs per contest. I'm pretty sure you can watch the games on YouTube. I saw the first few, but I'll withhold my judgment because a) small sample size and b) I'm not a great scout for talent.

    Didn't look to closely at that link. Here is the current profile with more games listed: http://www.nba.com/dleague/playerfil....html?nav=page

    11 points and 10 rebounds now, with 1.9 blocks and 2.5 TOs per.
    Last edited by LoneGranger33; 03-04-2013 at 06:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Bull Chips....

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    1) I never said that. Juice is a really nice pick. Plumlee was a poor pick.

    2) I guess you must have forgotten GS #30 pick Festus Ezeli team mate of Green. Ezeli has played in 56 games starting 39 of those games while logging 14:48 MPG. Then there is Jeff Taylor drafted at #31 who has played in 58 games starting 26 games while playing 21 MPG. Both were drafted 4 & 5 spots after Plumlee. I'm surprised Taylor wasn't drafted in the 1st round. Plently of other players drafted after Plumlee who are getting rookie minutes unlike Plumlee.

    3) There was enough talent drafted after Plumlee to make the pick of Plumlee a poor pick.
    "When your 2nd pick is better than your 1st pick, I don't call that doing ok." I'm saying getting value that late is a damn good job drafting regardless.

    I thought I mentioned something about injuries or teams being inept with Festus and Taylor in mind. I love Taylor and wouldn't have minded him, I'm guessing if we pick Festus the response is either "who?" or "**** yeah we got a guy with a cool name."

    We drafted him with Foster in mind as his upside, and I agree that we should have aimed higher, but why complain about a pick when literally 4 guys after him are doing anything at all?

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Bull Chips....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Why the Pacers drafted Plumlee over Teague is absolutely baffling to me.
    Don't worry, they'll draft his younger brother this summer. One of the Plumlees is bound to be a decent NBA player.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Bull Chips....

    WOW just thought of this, what if we had Jermaine O'neal in his prime right now, man this defense would be the best ever in NBA history

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