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Thread: Knicks and Pacers: What we've learned. (ESPN)

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    Default Knicks and Pacers: What we've learned. (ESPN)

    I got to agree about the turnover thing. Even about the Danny Granger part a bit. Decent read.

    It's amazing how much clarity the playoffs bring.

    You can play an entire 82-game schedule over a six-month span and not learn nearly as much about a team as you do by simply playing the same opponent over and over again in a two-week span.

    In this Knicks-Pacers series, with the Pacers leading 3-1 entering Thursday's game in New York, it's the Knicks who have exposed their ugliest side, leaving them open to thorough scrutiny. But it's not only the Knicks' warts that have been exposed so far.

    Here's what we've learned:


    Mike Woodson deserves credit/blame
    Here we thought the Knicks had finally settled on an identity. The team that averaged 103.9 points over its last 18 games in the regular season and went 16-2 was the true version of the Knicks. It was, after all, similar to the Knicks team that started the season, knocking down 3s at a remarkable pace, sharing the ball enough that both Carmelo Anthony and J.R. Smith could get their numbers without bogging down the offense and taking advantage of a smallish lineup that featured Melo at the power forward spot and a pair, any pair, of point guards on the floor at once.

    And for developing that, Woodson deserves plenty of praise. We weren't exactly sure how the oldest team in NBA history would be molded, but to be that regularly explosive was a genuine surprise.

    But then came the postseason, and suddenly the Woodson Knicks were as unreliable as the Woodson Hawks were. Despite the success in the regular season, the Knicks weren't trusting enough in their own offense to rely on it, instead going to their default mode that includes a lot more isolation of Anthony and Smith.

    And Woodson hasn't helped matters in this series. He has enabled the instability by making desperate and questionable lineup changes.

    He went big to match the Pacers in Game 4, putting Kenyon Martin in the starting lienup and tossing the idea of starting two point guards, which worked so well for the Knicks all season. And in choosing his point guards, he stuck with the player who hasn't made a shot since April 23 (Jason Kidd) for 16 minutes ahead of more stable Pablo Prigioni.

    When Woodson does go small, he doesn't fully commit to it, leaving shooters such as Chris Copeland and Steve Novak on the bench regularly. Isn't the idea of going small to make offense a priority? Well, apparently not for Woodson.

    The Pacers could use Danny Granger but don't miss him much
    The Pacers are one of those rare groups not defined by their leading scorer. Technically, Paul George would appear to be their best player, leading the team in scoring (18.3) and assists (5.0) in these playoffs. But the Pacers, unlike the Knicks, have remained true to their system, which includes plenty of post-ups for David West and Roy Hibbert, therefore limiting the pressure on George. That means he can have poor shooting nights -- and he has had plenty this postseason, shooting at just a 38.6 percent clip -- and Indy can still be effective.

    The primary reason for that is George's all-around game. In his worst shooting night of this series (4-of-17, including 2-of-12 from 3), George still offered up 8 rebounds, 8 assists and 5 steals. He followed that up in Game 4 with just six makes in 19 attempts, but added 14 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 steals and 2 blocks.

    You didn't get that kind of all-around production when Granger was the leading offensive presence last season and George was, as his own coach called him, an "afterthought offensively."

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    It was Granger's absence for most of this season that allowed George to mature into the player who can carry his team to three wins against the Knicks. And Lance Stephenson has essentially filled the role George played last playoffs: a defensive-minded player whose offensive production is a pleasant bonus.

    That doesn't mean the Pacers are better without Granger, though. Frank Vogel mixes and matches at times with players off his bench, and one thing that's missing is a consistent scoring threat on that second unit. Sam Young, D.J. Augustin or Gerald Green can be that person at times, but it would make life for Indiana a lot easier if it were Granger offering that consistent offensive relief.

    It's Amar'e or bust for the Knicks
    You see the look on the face of Anthony after he's forced into one difficult shot-clock-beating jumper after another? It's similar to the look Kevin Durant had throughout the fourth quarters of his second-round experience against the Grizzlies. For that matter, it was the same look we saw from LeBron James so often, before he tore off that Cleveland Cavaliers jersey for the final time.

    Against a regularly dominant defense such as that of the Pacers -- a team that can zero in on a scorer like Melo without opening up many opportunities for others -- Anthony's going to need the type of superstar help LeBron enlisted in Miami. Problem is, that's nearly impossible to accomplish given New York's payroll status and the practically immovable contract of Amar'e Stoudemire.

    For most of this season, and even in the series against Boston, we tended to ignore the future of the Knicks because their present success was so refreshing for the franchise. But one truism has been brought to light in this series: Any team that has J.R. Smith as its second-best player is going to have consistency issues.

    With the contracts of Anthony, Stoudemire and Tyson Chandler weighing them down, the Knicks have limited options when it comes to improving for next season. Even keeping Smith, who very likely will become a free agent this offseason, is no certainty.

    That leaves Stoudemire, once again, as the player the Knicks must rely on to take that next step into true contender status. It's not his talent that's the question. It's always his health. And that will leave Knicks fans with an uneasy feeling despite a second-round appearance for the first time in 13 years.

    Pacers' offense/turnovers eventually will be problematic
    For all the success the Pacers are experiencing in this series, there is one particularly troubling element that could come back to bite them, assuming their postseason continues against Miami.

    Indiana's turnovers, with George as the primary playmaker, can pile up in a hurry.

    In the first four games against the Knicks, the Pacers turned the ball over 16, 21, 17 and 12 times. The 21-turnover game was New York's only win, which included a 30-2 Knicks run.

    George is the primary culprit here, turning the ball over 21 times in the first four games, one more than his 20 assists for the series. He had his turnover problems early in the season, mostly because he tried to split defenders on pick-and-rolls too often. He had settled some, but, in this Knicks series, turnovers have become an issue again.

    Although New York hasn't capitalized that much, the next team George would face thrives off such mistakes. The Heat would turn more of those turnovers into fast-break opportunities. And even the dead-ball turnovers would be problematic because the Heat's offense is far more efficient than New York's right now.

    The Pacers might play differently against Miami, relying even more on post-ups of West and Hibbert against the smaller Heat. But George will be required to create against a swarming Heat defense. And a 0.95 assist-to-turnover to ratio isn't going to cut it.

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    Default Re: Knicks and Pacers: What we've learned. (ESPN)

    Quote Originally Posted by DJVendetta View Post
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    I got to agree about the turnover thing. Even about the Danny Granger part a bit. Decent read.
    I've been saying this all season long.....turnovers against Teams on our level ( say the Knicks or the Hawks ) can be overcome by our Defense and talent....but against Elite Level Teams that gobbles up those mistakes and capitalizes on them....it will kill us in the end.
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    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Knicks and Pacers: What we've learned. (ESPN)

    I learned all of that before the playoffs.
    "Danny Granger is one of the top players in the league. To move Danny, you better get a lot back." - Larry Bird

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    Default Re: Knicks and Pacers: What we've learned. (ESPN)

    Quote Originally Posted by cgg View Post
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    I learned all of that before the playoffs.
    Agreed, but at least someone from ESPN notices the obvious. It just seems the obvious is ignored by the media when it comes to us

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    Default Re: Knicks and Pacers: What we've learned. (ESPN)

    I disagree about not needing (as much) Granger part. With a healthy Granger, I think Indiana would absolutely bulldoze the Knicks and would either beat the Heat, or the the Heat would need 7 games and the last 20 seconds to beat the Pacers.

    The Pacers defense would be even more devastating with Granger, plus they'd have one more scorer, a scorer that doesn't turn the ball over ever. With a healthy Granger Indiana would be a juggernaut.
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    Default Re: Knicks and Pacers: What we've learned. (ESPN)

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    I disagree about not needing (as much) Granger part. With a healthy Granger, I think Indiana would absolutely bulldoze the Knicks and would either beat the Heat, or the the Heat would need 7 games and the last 20 seconds to beat the Pacers.

    The Pacers defense would be even more devastating with Granger, plus they'd have one more scorer, a scorer that doesn't turn the ball over ever. With a healthy Granger Indiana would be a juggernaut.
    Granger is yesterday. His replacement is already in place. Yes, he would be good coming off of the bench but would he be willing to do that? I think Danny Granger is done with the Pacers. If he every plays again, I think he will traded or just released.... PG is just a much better player at his position. Hasn't this playoff run proven that to you yet?

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    Default Re: Knicks and Pacers: What we've learned. (ESPN)

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue&Gold View Post
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    Granger is yesterday. His replacement is already in place. Yes, he would be good coming off of the bench but would he be willing to do that? I think Danny Granger is done with the Pacers. If he every plays again, I think he will traded or just released.... PG is just a much better player at his position. Hasn't this playoff run proven that to you yet?
    I'd feel like we ought to at least give Danny a chance to show what's left before we write him off. The chances are that if every other team feels the same way as you do about him, he'll actually be affordable. Why wouldn't you keep him? I don't think he's going to pout and screw up locker room chemistry if he has to come off the bench.
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    Default Re: Knicks and Pacers: What we've learned. (ESPN)

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue&Gold View Post
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    Granger is yesterday. His replacement is already in place. Yes, he would be good coming off of the bench but would he be willing to do that? I think Danny Granger is done with the Pacers. If he every plays again, I think he will traded or just released.... PG is just a much better player at his position. Hasn't this playoff run proven that to you yet?
    Granger said he is willing to do whatever it takes to help his team. If Vogel asks him to contribute off the Bench I think Granger has proven he is mature enough to handle such a situation.

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    Default Re: Knicks and Pacers: What we've learned. (ESPN)

    Only the Wizards, Cavs, Bobcats and Bucks have a lower FG% than our Pacers and some of you don't want Granger back? ? ? ?

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    Default Re: Knicks and Pacers: What we've learned. (ESPN)

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue&Gold View Post
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    Granger is yesterday. His replacement is already in place. Yes, he would be good coming off of the bench but would he be willing to do that? I think Danny Granger is done with the Pacers. If he every plays again, I think he will traded or just released.... PG is just a much better player at his position. Hasn't this playoff run proven that to you yet?
    SMFH, and we give lebron so much crap for leaving cleveland. Granger gave us his best years, he couldve ran off to a contender, abd after one injury we're ready to cast him aside. Loyalty is a 2 way street. These kinda comments make me sick to my stomach. I hope granger is a pacer for the rest of his career
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    Default Re: Knicks and Pacers: What we've learned. (ESPN)

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue&Gold View Post
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    Granger is yesterday. His replacement is already in place. Yes, he would be good coming off of the bench but would he be willing to do that? I think Danny Granger is done with the Pacers. If he every plays again, I think he will traded or just released.... PG is just a much better player at his position. Hasn't this playoff run proven that to you yet?
    PG isn't Granger's replacement. PG is the Pacers best wing. If Granger is healthy again, he'll be known as the Pacers second best wing, or he'll be known as their other starting wing.

    Granger could also come off the bench too, which would be nice. Though that wouldn't make a lot of sense, because if Granger is healthy he'll be a much better player than Lance.

    Speaking of "replacements." Lance is the guy that replaced Granger. Not PG.

    Edit - One more thing - **** the Broncos and the Yankees. =)
    Last edited by mattie; 05-18-2013 at 05:02 AM.
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    Default Re: Knicks and Pacers: What we've learned. (ESPN)

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue&Gold View Post
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    Granger is yesterday. His replacement is already in place. Yes, he would be good coming off of the bench but would he be willing to do that? I think Danny Granger is done with the Pacers. If he every plays again, I think he will traded or just released.... PG is just a much better player at his position. Hasn't this playoff run proven that to you yet?
    All this playoff run has shown me is that we need Danny's consistent scoring from the perimeter now more than ever. It's the one thing Paul struggles with, and Danny excels at. Perfect compliment to the team and to the jack of all trades all star in Paul.

    The thought of Danny at even 80% with this team equates to a more balanced, versatile and potent team both offensively and defensively.

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    Default Re: Knicks and Pacers: What we've learned. (ESPN)

    I know I shouldn't be upset by this, but I hate the premise that: ''Anthony's going to need the type of superstar help LeBron enlisted in Miami.''
    yay, we're going back to the play-offs!

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    Default Re: Knicks and Pacers: What we've learned. (ESPN)

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue&Gold View Post
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    Granger is yesterday. His replacement is already in place. Yes, he would be good coming off of the bench but would he be willing to do that? I think Danny Granger is done with the Pacers. If he every plays again, I think he will traded or just released.... PG is just a much better player at his position. Hasn't this playoff run proven that to you yet?
    Heaven forbid we have 2 really good wings. Would it mean the end of PG as we know him if Granger ever came back full strength and leads the team in scoring again? A lot of players have came back to full strength from worse. I can't even relate to your thought process.

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    Default Re: Knicks and Pacers: What we've learned. (ESPN)

    This was copy-pasted to insidehoops.com - LINK: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=300351

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    Default Re: Knicks and Pacers: What we've learned. (ESPN)

    I really hope we don't get rid of Granger next season, I say have Granger come back and lets make a run at the title, bring Granger off the bench, but still play him his 30-35 mpg, Lance starts but plays about 25 mpg, imagine this team with Granger's scoring off the bench

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    Default Re: Knicks and Pacers: What we've learned. (ESPN)

    I'm hoping that if Danny can play next year he starts at 3 but spends a good chunk of time backing up David West. That way we still get a lot of Lance/Paul at the 2/3 and theoretically make our backup PF spot much more dynamic.

    Hill/TBD
    George/Lance
    Granger/George/TBD
    West/Granger
    Hibbert/Mahinmi

    Get a better backup PG and a Korver/Reddick-esque wing in there, and we could be pretty well set.

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    Default Re: Knicks and Pacers: What we've learned. (ESPN)

    I, of course, agree with Hicks. The idea of Danny as the 6th man, covering both the 3 and 4 position, is the drum I've been beating since PG showed his growth. If Danny comes back at 85-90%, he can cover nearly every 3 and 4 in the league. Few of them can stop DG if we use him as a stretch 4 and at the 3.

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    Default Re: Knicks and Pacers: What we've learned. (ESPN)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I'm hoping that if Danny can play next year he starts at 3 but spends a good chunk of time backing up David West. That way we still get a lot of Lance/Paul at the 2/3 and theoretically make our backup PF spot much more dynamic.

    Hill/TBD
    George/Lance
    Granger/George/TBD
    West/Granger
    Hibbert/Mahinmi

    Get a better backup PG and a Korver/Reddick-esque wing in there, and we could be pretty well set.
    If Danny comes back healthy, next year might be amazing. Imagine this group with another year under their belt and a lot better depth. We will roll into the ECF if this happens.

    BTW, I agree that Danny at the backup 4 would be amazing. With Paul at the 3 we would have the boards covered adn Danny is strong enough to guard non-Center type of PF's. He would be guarding Mello and he could also guard Copeland. He could guard any PF on Miami and he can even guard Garnett. Then he would kill them at the other end stretching the floor to the limit. I have not given up hope on a Granger return next year.

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    Default Re: Knicks and Pacers: What we've learned. (ESPN)

    I really think we should play pendy or sam young when at the 4 when copeland is in the game
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    Default Re: Knicks and Pacers: What we've learned. (ESPN)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I'm hoping that if Danny can play next year he starts at 3 but spends a good chunk of time backing up David West. That way we still get a lot of Lance/Paul at the 2/3 and theoretically make our backup PF spot much more dynamic.

    Hill/TBD
    George/Lance
    Granger/George/TBD
    West/Granger
    Hibbert/Mahinmi

    Get a better backup PG and a Korver/Reddick-esque wing in there, and we could be pretty well set.
    Let's cross our fingers, I think Orlando might be that guy.
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    Default Re: Knicks and Pacers: What we've learned. (ESPN)

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Let's cross our fingers, I think Orlando might be that guy.
    Couldn't agree more. He has a sweet stroke. I would like to see him get some minutes now. Couldn't be worse than Young and Green.
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