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Thread: OJ may solve some problems for us

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    Default Re: OJ may solve some problems for us

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    That opinion has merit as well, obviously. But here's another way to look at it: during the playoffs, with a scaled down rotation, does giving Tyler 10 minutes or OJ 10 minutes help us more? I think Danny at the 4 with OJ on the wing helps us more.

    Tyler just is appearing more and more like a liability to me with his defense, rebounding, and low fg percentage. Granted, he's improving somewhat and he's getting to the line a lot. He also has that crazy, psycho intangible that is probably good for playoff ball. Hmmm . . . maybe I'm talking myself out of this.
    I think you're letting last season's performance affect your opinion of him this year. His post defense has been excellent this year, and his team defense is improving. He's actually our fourth strongest rebounder, and he's only behind Hibbert in terms of rebounding per minute. So interms of production, he's a very good rebounder for us.

    His FG %, while still low for his position, is offset by the fact that he DOES get to the line a lot. But even then, he's basically shooting the team average so even though he's helping the FG% problem our team has had much of the year, what he's been doing hasn't really hurt us either.


    Quote Originally Posted by SMosley21 View Post
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    Some team will offer a whole lot more than 4 mil per for Lance, assuming he continues to flourish (which we have no reason to believe he won't). If Steve Blake can get 4 mil per, at the age of 32, Lance can easily expect $6 mil per when/if he hits the open market.
    6 would be a reasonable guess, but keep in mind players do not always get paid their market value. Blake is on the high end, probably because he's a point guard, while guys like Jamal Crawford (5 mil per) are getting the low end recently because of the CBA.

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    Default Re: OJ may solve some problems for us

    Assuming that Vogel will continue to give GH/PG/Lance/West/Hibbert/Mahinmi their current # of minutes, we are likely looking at the rotation as follows ( where Lance continues to get 28 mpg....which Vogel said he will continue to do ):

    PG - GH ( 32 mpg ) / DJ ( 16 mpg )
    SG - PG ( 18 mpg ) / Lance ( 28 mpg ) / GH ( 2 mpg )
    SF - Granger ( 32 mpg ) / PG ( 16 mpg )
    PF - West ( 33 mpg ) / Hansbrough ( 15 mpg )
    C - Hibbert ( 28 mpg ) / Mahinmi ( 20 mpg )

    The way I look at it....the rotations will likely tighten up come Playoff time to a 9 man rotation. The reality is that Players like OJ/Green/Young won't likely get any minutes when it's Playoff/Crunch Time. I like what OJ has done...but his improvement will likely cost Young and Green minutes...not Granger or Hansbrough.

    IMHO....I think that Hansbrough in HUGE doses on a regular basis isn't always beneficial ( based off of the matchup ). But in 15-16 mpg....that's a different story. His skill to get to the FT line while getting Players in Foul Trouble...is really underrated, forgotten and very important come Playoff time. He's able to do a lot of damage during the minimal amount of time he plays....while his aggressive defense is able to get under the skins of a lot of Teams ( which I like ). In other words, he's very effective..in small doses.

    I agree...my overall preference is to reduce the # of minutes that West play to roughly 30 mpg ( cuz the Playoffs is a marathon...not a race )....instead of the 33 mpg that he currently plays....while giving those spot 3 backup PF minutes to Granger.....but I am guessing that the key Starters ( GH / PG / Granger / West ) will be pushing 33 to 35 mpg in the Playoffs...with Lance getting up to 30 mpg.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: OJ may solve some problems for us

    Quote Originally Posted by SMosley21 View Post
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    Some team will offer a whole lot more than 4 mil per for Lance, assuming he continues to flourish (which we have no reason to believe he won't). If Steve Blake can get 4 mil per, at the age of 32, Lance can easily expect $6 mil per when/if he hits the open market.
    I assume that because Lance is a 2nd round pick....that some Team will be d*cks about it and will try to Jeremy Lin / Omar Asik the Pacers....by offering a huge poison pill contract offer that is heavily skewed in the last year of his contract offer. it will be something like some $4 mil / $4 mil / $10 mil contract offer.

    IMHO....the Pacers should engage Lance in an extension in the upcoming summer....just to avoid having him hit the FA Market in 2014-2015....cuz some Team will do to the Pacers what the Rockets did to the Knicks.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: OJ may solve some problems for us

    OJ has already surpassed my expectations as a basketball player. He's making his shots of course, but it goes beyond that. I thought he was a Stephen Graham level player but he's beyond that. He makes very good decisions on offense and shoots within the flow. He's strong and has great balance. He also has a quick release. But what I didn't expect is that he's quick and strong enough to guard the big, physical point guards. I think he gives us the flexibility to move Lance to PG on offense.

    I'm impressed.

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    Default Re: OJ may solve some problems for us

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    I assume that because Lance is a 2nd round pick....that some Team will be d*cks about it and will try to Jeremy Lin / Omar Asik the Pacers....by offering a huge poison pill contract offer that is heavily skewed in the last year of his contract offer. it will be something like some $4 mil / $4 mil / $10 mil contract offer.

    IMHO....the Pacers should engage Lance in an extension in the upcoming summer....just to avoid having him hit the FA Market in 2014-2015....cuz some Team will do to the Pacers what the Rockets did to the Knicks.
    Completely agree. The front office should be trying to lock up PG and Lance THIS SUMMER, not next. If they can't, they can't, but they should at the very least be trying to.
    Grown Man Ball

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    Default Re: OJ may solve some problems for us

    Quote Originally Posted by SMosley21 View Post
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    Some team will offer a whole lot more than 4 mil per for Lance, assuming he continues to flourish (which we have no reason to believe he won't). If Steve Blake can get 4 mil per, at the age of 32, Lance can easily expect $6 mil per when/if he hits the open market.
    I don't think he gets that kind of offer but if you're right he's gone. Bottom line is if we want to keep Granger, West, and PG then our bench needs to fit within a tight budget and since we already have Ian at 4 mil we really won't be able to afford another player at more then 2-3 mil. I hate that but in reality I think both Lance and Tyler will most likely have to go. I'd rather keep Lance then Tyler but it's more important to keep Granger then either player. We might want to move Lance for a pick this summer or package him with Green to get rid of Green's contract. I really hate to see the team make these hard decisions but they'll have to be made.

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    Default Re: OJ may solve some problems for us

    Trading Danny will bring a better return and more cap space than both Lance and Tyler.
    He also overlaps with Paul. If hard choices need to be made I'd give up the luxury of having two starting small forwards.
    Also Lance has great potential and Danny has limited years left to play. Also if OJ can continue to stroke like he's been doing he will fulfill the greatest benefit of having Danny anyway.
    This summer I'd look to move Danny for a draft pick, a good back up, and maybe a retiring player to balance the money.
    If we can move Green at the same time - even better.

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    Default Re: OJ may solve some problems for us

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Green isn't in the rotation any more.
    Because PG has been playin both starter and backup for the most part. Watch the rotations; around the 2:00 mark in the 1st quarter, Vogel starts taking his starters out and PG plays well into the 2nd quarter and when PG goes out they sorta play these weird lineups until the starters all return by the 6-7:00 minute mark of the 2nd quarter..... DJ, OJ, Hansbrough Mahinmi, and they'll bring back GHill or DWest early to round it out.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: OJ may solve some problems for us

    Pulp is the friggin' man.

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    Default Re: OJ may solve some problems for us

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    I assume that because Lance is a 2nd round pick....that some Team will be d*cks about it and will try to Jeremy Lin / Omar Asik the Pacers....by offering a huge poison pill contract offer that is heavily skewed in the last year of his contract offer. it will be something like some $4 mil / $4 mil / $10 mil contract offer.

    IMHO....the Pacers should engage Lance in an extension in the upcoming summer....just to avoid having him hit the FA Market in 2014-2015....cuz some Team will do to the Pacers what the Rockets did to the Knicks.
    They won't do that because the only team it would screw would be their own. Lance will be an unrestricted free agent, so we won't have the power to match him.

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    Default Re: OJ may solve some problems for us

    Playoffs is matchups and adjustments. The player that is needed will play.

    Example: Dahntay didn't play against Orlando because he sucks defending off screens and Barbosa is good at it. Against Miami Dahntay comes back because he's a better on ball defender and Wade doesn't use screens like the Magic do.
    "Danny Granger is one of the top players in the league. To move Danny, you better get a lot back." - Larry Bird

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    Default Re: OJ may solve some problems for us

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    They won't do that because the only team it would screw would be their own. Lance will be an unrestricted free agent, so we won't have the power to match him.

    Aren't 2cd round picks still restricted coming off their rookie deal? I think we have the power to match anything he gets and I honestly love how Lance has developed into a solid rotational player however any team that pays him more then MLE money is just being stupid, he's not worth more then that. It's unfortunate that the Pacers can't even afford him if he goes for that much, not if they plan to keep Granger.

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    Default Re: OJ may solve some problems for us

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    Aren't 2cd round picks still restricted coming off their rookie deal? I think we have the power to match anything he gets and I honestly love how Lance has developed into a solid rotational player however any team that pays him more then MLE money is just being stupid, he's not worth more then that. It's unfortunate that the Pacers can't even afford him if he goes for that much, not if they plan to keep Granger.
    I think 2nd round picks are only restricted if they are coming off of a 3yr contact or less for some reason.
    "Danny Granger is one of the top players in the league. To move Danny, you better get a lot back." - Larry Bird

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    Default Re: OJ may solve some problems for us

    Quote Originally Posted by cgg View Post
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    I think 2nd round picks are only restricted if they are coming off of a 3yr contact or less for some reason.
    Here's the rule:

    For first-round draft picks, restricted free agency is only allowed after a team exercises its option for a fourth year, and the team makes a Qualifying Offer at the Rookie-scale amount after the fourth year is completed. For any other player to be a restricted free agent, he must be at most a three-year NBA veteran, and his team must have made a Qualifying Offer for either 125% of his previous season's salary or the minimum salary plus $200,000, whichever offer is higher.

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    Default Re: OJ may solve some problems for us

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Tyler just is appearing more and more like a liability to me with his defense, rebounding, and low fg percentage. Granted, he's improving somewhat and he's getting to the line a lot. He also has that crazy, psycho intangible that is probably good for playoff ball. Hmmm . . . maybe I'm talking myself out of this.
    Tyler has been pretty good defensively this season.

    I have no problem with his minutes but I agree that OJ should continue to get some minutes.
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    Default Re: OJ may solve some problems for us

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    Here's the rule:

    For first-round draft picks, restricted free agency is only allowed after a team exercises its option for a fourth year, and the team makes a Qualifying Offer at the Rookie-scale amount after the fourth year is completed. For any other player to be a restricted free agent, he must be at most a three-year NBA veteran, and his team must have made a Qualifying Offer for either 125% of his previous season's salary or the minimum salary plus $200,000, whichever offer is higher.
    Lance was drafted in 2010 and the team has a team option for $981,349 for next year. He should be fully restricted with no poison pill option then.
    It really won't matter if we decide to keep West and Granger though since the team will be on a tight budget for the bench. He just doesn't have the right to sign with another team unless the Pacers want to let him walk. As much as he is valued here I still don't think a combo guard that averages 8.5 ppg starting will even get an MLE offer from another team and his numbers are likely to drop once Granger fully recovers.

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    Default Re: OJ may solve some problems for us

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    Lance was drafted in 2010 and the team has a team option for $981,349 for next year. He should be fully restricted with no poison pill option then.
    It really won't matter if we decide to keep West and Granger though since the team will be on a tight budget for the bench. He just doesn't have the right to sign with another team unless the Pacers want to let him walk. As much as he is valued here I still don't think a combo guard that averages 8.5 ppg starting will even get an MLE offer from another team and his numbers are likely to drop once Granger fully recovers.
    Well you are right but are applying the wrong rule. That is the rule for a first round pick. However, 2nd round picks and nondrafted free agents follow the second clause, which is that they have to have only been in the league 3 or fewer years so far. Since Lance signed a 4 year contract, we don't get him as an RFA.

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    Default Re: OJ may solve some problems for us

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    Well you are right but are applying the wrong rule. That is the rule for a first round pick. However, 2nd round picks and nondrafted free agents follow the second clause, which is that they have to have only been in the league 3 or fewer years so far. Since Lance signed a 4 year contract, we don't get him as an RFA.
    This is huge.

    You mean if Lance doesn't agree to a contract extension, we may lose him?
    .

    .

    .

    .


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    Default Re: OJ may solve some problems for us

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    This is huge.

    You mean if Lance doesn't agree to a contract extension, we may lose him?
    Yep. Since we signed him to a guaranteed 4 year deal, when he's up he's free to go.

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    Default Re: OJ may solve some problems for us

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    This is huge.

    You mean if Lance doesn't agree to a contract extension, we may lose him?
    He was a Lakers fan growing up.
    "Danny Granger is one of the top players in the league. To move Danny, you better get a lot back." - Larry Bird

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    Default Re: OJ may solve some problems for us

    Quote Originally Posted by Goyle View Post
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    Sucks, OJ's been playing so well, but I imagine a primarily 3 wing rotation with Young getting what's left over for defensive purposes.
    I agree. OJ will have a couple of games where he gets in and hits a big shot and gets some fame with the locals for it, like James Jones hitting shots for Miami, but overall Young is a bit more of a go-to guy due to not just his defense but his overall outstanding game awareness. He fills tons of holes during the course of a play.

    Green is obviously out and DJ will see very limited minutes. Tyler will be a bit like OJ, as the need arises but totally missing at other points.

    That's the nature of the beast. Good stories on the bench but the rotation tightens for the playoffs. You've got about 20 minute past the big 6 per game, so 10 for Ian (more on Roy fouls) and 10 for Tyler/Young/OJ/DJ. They can have huge moments, but not big "games" overall. Unless something goes really wrong.

    40 - Paul, Hill, West (24 left at those spots)
    30 - Roy, Danny (36 left at those spots)
    30 - Lance (leaves you with 30, not 20)

    So if Danny isn't back up to the 40 minute starters level and you don't like Lance at 35+ minutes, then there will be holes for guys to fit into. Of course "only" 40 for PG, Hill or even West in a close playoff game might also be unlikely. PG could definitely see some 44-46 minute outings.


    Ian = I need another big with size, Roy has fouls
    Tyler = I need an energy boost or rebounds, West or Roy has fouls
    Young = I need a breather for wings without losing defense on James/Wade
    OJ = I need some 3pt makes, PG, Danny, Hill are off
    DJ = I need handles getting up court, some 3s maybe, want to rest Hill or maybe go small

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    Default Re: OJ may solve some problems for us

    Quote Originally Posted by Day-V View Post
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    Pulp is the friggin' man.
    See, I think he picked the wrong nickname because to me he is the no-pulp Pure Premium OJ, the good stuff worth a few more bucks.

    But I've still been yelling Pulp anyway.

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    Default Re: OJ may solve some problems for us

    As someone who has lived in Florida for 20 years, I find your taste in orange juice disturbing.
    "Danny Granger is one of the top players in the league. To move Danny, you better get a lot back." - Larry Bird

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