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The Rules of Pacers Digest

Hello everyone,

Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.

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Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.

Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
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Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

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  • Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

    Originally posted by graphic-er View Post
    WTF? I didn't say anything about your daughter. I said you. Your original post said "I took my daughter to a game, had a so so time. I took my daughter to a Colts game, had a great time." Meaning you had a great time or a so so time. You said you didn't care for the team anymore. But you obviously like the NFL. If you state prior that you don't care for the team or league anymore, but went to a game and had so so experience. Its pretty easy to conclude that you are preconditioned to not have a great time at an NBA game. LOL! You must be drunk or really tired, because I didn't say anything regarding what your daughter thinks or says. You already said she dont' know anything about sports anyways, just which crowd is more fun. Why i would I focus on that? I focused on what you said about the team.
    I said I took my daughter to both venues. I said my daughter felt the colts game was more fun because of the crowd interaction. I said she had no allegiance to either team. I said id be more likely to take her to a colts game because she enjoyed it more. I said the crowd was a chicken / egg situation that would get better and that I would likely take her back to try again when a consistant crowd builds. The whole damn paragraph is about me taking my daughter and her experience. Why the hell would I mention all of that about my daughter if it's not important to my point. There is maybe one sentence in that paragraph that talks about something other than my daughter and her experience. I'm going to assume you have no kids. Is that accurate? I took my daughter to bond with her. I took her to try to expose her to the product. She didn't really enjoy it - not like the colts game. My enjoyment was completely tied to hers. I've enjoyed being at chuckey cheese on occasion when my kids have loved it. Otherwise I hate the place. But you only continued to tell me how it was because i don't like the NBA. The fact is you don't give a **** about my opinion. You certainly don't care enough to try to understand. You only want to criticize. Which is your right. I just don't understand why you keep responding to me when you obviously don't want to understand where I'm coming from. I guess the real question is why I keep responding to you. It's a damn good questions that I don't have an answer to. I'm done.

    Comment


    • Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

      rm1369, the only thing that I guess that I ( and many fans here ) can suggest/ask...is that you just try to catch a game on TV every now and then...just to see that they aren't the same Team as before.

      Although I am sure that the NBA Product ( as a whole ) seems skewed towards the "Super Teams", IMHO....it's more about the game itself when a Local Team plays. I can understand that it would be hard to root for a really bad Team ( much less spend $$$ and time on them )...but we as ( obviously ) biased fans...can tell you that this Team isn't that bad and worth rooting for....cuz they play really hard-nosed basketball.

      If you watch it and it still sucks...then that is fine....the product just doesn't fit your time and needs anymore. Ignore the "glitz and glamour" from the NBA "Super Teams" and just go watch a Pacers game on TV....if anything...it's good TV and IMHO good basketball.
      Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

      Comment


      • Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

        I don't fault anyone for not going to a Pacers game. Not everyone has to like the NBA. I don't really follow the NFL after I saw Anthony Gonzalez nearly get decapitated in Philly a few years ago. I'd rather not support a sport where I'm watching people slowly commit suicide, but I get why other people do.

        I've just accepted that Indiana is not a state that cares about pro basketball. I'm at the point where I'd almost prefer the Pacers move to a city that would support them in a way they deserve. This has been one of the best run small market franchises in league history and no one cares. Indiana frankly doesn't deserve a pro team when a city like Sacramento doesn't have one.

        Comment


        • Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

          Originally posted by King Tuts Tomb View Post
          I don't fault anyone for not going to a Pacers game. Not everyone has to like the NBA. I don't really follow the NFL after I saw Anthony Gonzalez nearly get decapitated in Philly a few years ago. I'd rather not support a sport where I'm watching people slowly commit suicide, but I get why other people do.

          I've just accepted that Indiana is not a state that cares about pro basketball. I'm at the point where I'd almost prefer the Pacers move to a city that would support them in a way they deserve. This has been one of the best run small market franchises in league history and no one cares. Indiana frankly doesn't deserve a pro team when a city like Sacramento doesn't have one.
          I guess the irony is lost in the fact that you are saying this on a web site dedicated to the Indiana Pacers and yes several of us live around here.

          Also the irony may also be lost in the fact that you are saying this on a night in which BLF was nearly sold out vs a team that is poor with no superstars or even name brand players to draw a casual fan.


          Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

          Comment


          • Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

            This Pacers squad is clearly one of the best teams out there and intent on going deep
            into the playoffs.

            Whoever this "fan" is who is "just not that into" the Pacers is like an osterich with its
            head stuck in the sand.

            If you want to come up with excuses to not enjoy the ride then sorry 'bout your luck
            dude. The rest of us fans are loving it right now.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by graphic-er View Post
              I enjoyed watching the 4 years of JOB era. It wasn't wasting time. I got see Danny Granger develop into a legit all-star. I go to see the team grow into what it is today. The basketball may not have been what it is today, but there is more to being a fan than watching the basketball.
              This puts you in a minority even among the die-hard fans. I supported the team but I can't say I "enjoyed watching" - enjoyed complaining (and arguing about what complaints were and were not valid with PD members), maybe.

              A thought crosses my mind, though - and while triggered somewhat by the discussion with rm1369 I want to be clear I know his point had nothing whatsoever to do with what I'm bringing up - regarding superstars. If the only way to get one is in the daft, and the only way to do that is to have multiple top 3 picks over a few years, then the fact of the matter is you HAVE to be playing some pretty bad basketball at some point. Sure, young players being developed helps the attitude, but if they aren't playing badly during that period then they won't have a bad enough record to be that high in the lottery. How can those (again not pointing any fingers in this conversation) who don't come because the team is losing AND don't come because the team has no superstar expect there to BE a team when the opportunity for a superstar comes around? Someone has to support the losing team to make that possible.

              Sent from my cm_tenderloin using Tapatalk 2
              BillS

              A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
              Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

              Comment


              • Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

                Originally posted by King Tuts Tomb View Post
                I don't fault anyone for not going to a Pacers game. Not everyone has to like the NBA. I don't really follow the NFL after I saw Anthony Gonzalez nearly get decapitated in Philly a few years ago. I'd rather not support a sport where I'm watching people slowly commit suicide, but I get why other people do.

                I've just accepted that Indiana is not a state that cares about pro basketball. I'm at the point where I'd almost prefer the Pacers move to a city that would support them in a way they deserve. This has been one of the best run small market franchises in league history and no one cares. Indiana frankly doesn't deserve a pro team when a city like Sacramento doesn't have one.
                Aside from that pesky 2004-2010 stretch where he had a brawl, unlikable players, numerous off the court incidents that embarrassed the franchise, and then a few years of bad players being coached by Jim O'Brien. Those six years honestly couldn't have gone much worse. You don't erase six years of ill-will in just two years. Yes we made the playoffs in 2011, but we only won 37 games that year and got beat 4-1 in the first round. Plus Jim O'Brien coached half of the season. Last year was great, but the lockout certainly hurt us as far as capitalizing off of the Bulls series. This year is the first full regular NBA season in which we are putting together a great record.

                Yesterday is perfect evidence that people are getting interested again. I was there and it was a great crowd. A couple of years ago, a Friday night game against a crappy team like Detroit wouldn't have had a good crowd. The fans are coming back.
                Last edited by Sollozzo; 02-23-2013, 10:49 AM.

                Comment


                • Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

                  Originally posted by King Tuts Tomb View Post
                  I've just accepted that Indiana is not a state that cares about pro basketball. I'm at the point where I'd almost prefer the Pacers move to a city that would support them in a way they deserve. This has been one of the best run small market franchises in league history and no one cares. Indiana frankly doesn't deserve a pro team when a city like Sacramento doesn't have one.
                  So do you have a specific list of cities that don't deserve an NBA team or is it just Indy?
                  You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

                  Comment


                  • Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

                    I am still reading page 10, but yet again we get another "non die hard" fan offering his opinion and it seems we would rather bash him and his opinions (not a real fan, never should have left, too stupid to know now is the time to come back) than to welcome him back.

                    I hope no one here even tries to welcome back casual fans IRL the same way they have in this and similar threads.

                    We may not like them, but we NEEDcasual fans. However, reading this site the past week, if you are not a die hard you are a loser who has no business even offering up your opinions.

                    Damn shame.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

                      He made some good points (other basketball options, corporate sponsorships alienating the casual fan, revenue sharing, tv contracts, etc.), but he also made some bad points (lack of Top 5 draft pick, being LeBron's B****, etc.). It doesn't hurt to hear a difference in opinion and prespective from time to time.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

                        This state cares about basketball and if you think it doesn't then your a step out of reality. There are many, many, many reasons that people doesn't go to ball games and especially losing clubs in any sport. We can set here and hash out all the reasons valid or not in whoever's eyes. But at the end of the day those reasons are more valid then some realize or want to admit.

                        Just put a product on the floor that is worth peoples money and time and they will come.
                        Garbage players get 1st round picks, (WTF)! All of the NBA must hate the Pacers! LOL

                        Comment


                        • Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

                          Originally posted by BillS View Post
                          This puts you in a minority even among the die-hard fans. I supported the team but I can't say I "enjoyed watching" - enjoyed complaining (and arguing about what complaints were and were not valid with PD members), maybe.

                          A thought crosses my mind, though - and while triggered somewhat by the discussion with rm1369 I want to be clear I know his point had nothing whatsoever to do with what I'm bringing up - regarding superstars. If the only way to get one is in the daft, and the only way to do that is to have multiple top 3 picks over a few years, then the fact of the matter is you HAVE to be playing some pretty bad basketball at some point. Sure, young players being developed helps the attitude, but if they aren't playing badly during that period then they won't have a bad enough record to be that high in the lottery. How can those (again not pointing any fingers in this conversation) who don't come because the team is losing AND don't come because the team has no superstar expect there to BE a team when the opportunity for a superstar comes around? Someone has to support the losing team to make that possible.

                          Sent from my cm_tenderloin using Tapatalk 2
                          If you didn't enjoy watching Pacer games then you wouldn't have been a season ticket holder during the JOB years. So you can sit there and say you didn't enjoy watching their miserable product, but really.....you were you captivated by it. Its the journey! How can anyone think the JOB years were a waste of time when we now have seen this monster of a team emerge from that rubble? This team doesnt happen unless we have those teams.

                          You know who wasted their time? People like rm1369, who gave up right in the middle of the turmoil. I think in general these folks feel a bit guilty about their decision to abandon the team. Hence pop in here and tell their sad experience with the team as some sort of validation. Like a cleansing of their basketball heart, before they feel they can hop on board cheer for them again.
                          You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

                            Originally posted by PR07 View Post
                            He made some good points (other basketball options, corporate sponsorships alienating the casual fan, revenue sharing, tv contracts, etc.), but he also made some bad points (lack of Top 5 draft pick, being LeBron's B****, etc.). It doesn't hurt to hear a difference in opinion and prespective from time to time.
                            I agree. Chopping out some of his post, most casual fans feel that way. I agree with him in part. I do not enjoy sitting up high compared to watching it on the big screen with a good commentator. You get to see replays and quite frankly the snacks are a lot cheaper and the seat is free. These are just the facts. You can disagree but by far the vast majority of casual Pacer fans feel that way because otherwise that attendance problem wouldn't be a problem. There are well over a million people in the metro area. It takes 1 in 100 to fill BLF...and that's just counting locals.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

                              I watched the Pacers through most the R. Miller years and after so it was probably 12 years of watching most games. I loved the excitement of the young guys when Miller left such as Bender/Harrington/Oneal/Artest even though it fell apart through injury (Bender) and head cases (Artest) but it was an exciting time to watch the young guys grow. Then Tinsley and Jackson and some others came in and totally made the Pacers unwatchable for me. So many times I heard Bird say that this is the offseason he makes serious changes but never did. Even last year the FO could have made a splash in FA or a trade but just got lesser players. I watch the Pacers very little but come on here and see what's new with the team and I'm glad the Pacers are doing well again but what keeps me away from watching the Pacers like I used to is that there is little star power on the team and I know people will say P.G. is a star in the making but to me it just seems like the FO has let the fans down for years and I just don't get to excited anymore about the Pacers because I just don't believe the FO is willing to do what it takes. I was a die hard Pacer/Colts fan and now I'm just a die hard hard Colts fan - The Colts FO seems to me to be able to try to put a winner on the field and I just think there's not that dedication from the Pacers! This is just my opinion and I like the Pacers but I just wish the Pacers would do more to show they are trying to put a championship team together such as a trade to bring in a quality player wether it be a starter/bench player.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Fan to Pacers: Maybe we're just not that into you.

                                My conclusion from this thread is that Indiana is not an exceptional pro-basketball market that doesn't fit in with the NBA like some people suggest it is. We want to see superstars and we want to see them in HD.

                                I actually love watching Pacer games in the balcony, if you're a basketball nerd and want to see everything develop it is the best place to watch the game. Indiana claims to have a lot of basketball nerds. But it seems like everyone either wants to watch the game in the first 5 rows of the lower bowl for 20 bucks or wants to say at home and watch it in HD. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but don't act like Indy is that exceptional fanbase then. It's like someone who claims to be a music lover but has the new Bieber CD as his go to disk.

                                Comment

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