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Thread: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

  1. #76
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    Default Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

    I remember Pacers fans calling Bill Laimbeer a thug all the time. Didn't realize we were calling him something bad about his race.
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    Default Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    It's absolutely become much more common place to call black athletes a "thug" disproportionately to white athletes. Not guys that get in legal trouble or anything, just guys that commit hard fouls and stuff like that. I wouldn't necessarily call it a slur, but it absolutely has gained racial connotations in the last decade or so.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_an...ity_in_the_NBA

    There aren't as many white guys in the NBA to call a thug to begin with. But one of the NBA's most famous on court thugs is Bill Laimbeer.

    I hear white hockey players get called thugs all the time.

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    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    So what word CAN be used for a person who chooses a violent lifestyle that isn't considered racist?

    When I grew up, a thug was more likely to refer to the guy selling protection for the Mafia - I have no idea when the decision was made that it was racist, who I should be checking my vocabulary with to have it approved, and what word I'm allowed to use instead.

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    Calling a professional african american athlete a "thug" absolutely has racial connotations. For the very reason you stated.

    A thug is a criminal. Period.

    " a brutal ruffian or assassin"

    From Websters...
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    Default Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    just guys that commit hard fouls and stuff like that.
    So you mean when people are properly using the word by it's defintion?

    Quote Originally Posted by thug
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    a brutal ruffian or assassin : gangster, tough
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/thug
    Quote Originally Posted by ruffian
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    a brutal person : bully
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ruffianhttp://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ruffian

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    Default Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Calling a professional african american athlete a "thug" absolutely has racial connotations. For the very reason you stated.

    A thug is a criminal. Period.

    " a brutal ruffian or assassin"

    From Websters...
    Wait....what?

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    Default Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Calling a professional african american athlete a "thug" absolutely has racial connotations. For the very reason you stated.

    A thug is a criminal. Period.

    " a brutal ruffian or assassin"

    From Websters...
    When your quoted defintion doesn't meet your paraphrased definition.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Calling a professional african american athlete a "thug" absolutely has racial connotations. For the very reason you stated.

    A thug is a criminal. Period.

    " a brutal ruffian or assassin"

    From Websters...
    So it can be applied to anyone BUT a professional African American athlete?

    Meaning Bill Laimbeer is a thug, Pat Riley is a thug, but Charles Oakley is a ... what?

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    Default Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

    So when I call Todd Bertuzzi a white, canadian hockey player a thug....am I a racist?

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    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

    Eh. If you can't see why that's offensive, then. well. Ok.
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    Default Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Eh. If you can't see why that's offensive, then. well. Ok.

    Being called a thug is probably offensive, but it's not because of race.

    EDIT: If I call Chris Birdman Anderson a drug addled burn out is that racist? He's EARNED that nickname.
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 02-22-2013 at 03:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Eh. If you can't see why that's offensive, then. well. Ok.
    So what would be a term you think is appropriate to describe a group of guys who get in fights/shoot a gun at a strip club, get in a high speed chase through downtown while firing shots out the window, and who go into stands and beat up a fan? (Not only that, but think they did nothing wrong in the process)

    You say thug means criminal. All those are crimes. They got charged for them. So calling them thugs is calling them criminals, they got charged and convicted of crimes, but calling them criminals is racist.

    And around and around we go.

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    Default Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

    Whatever you do, don't call any White American athletes miscreants.

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    Default Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

    I don't even understand why we are so focused on the word thug. Because a few dopes on the IndyStar comment section of Pacers articles calls them thugs? Who ****ing cares? Those people weren't going to games anyway. And they are a tiny *** minority.
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 02-22-2013 at 03:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I don't even understand why we are so focused on the word thug. Because a few dopes on the IndyStar comment section of Pacers articles calls them thugs? Who ****ing cares? Those people weren't going to games anyway. And they are a tiny *** minority.

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  18. #90

    Default Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

    I think racism plays a part in why the NBA isn't as popular as other major sports. (and yet, I believe ranks the highest in popularity among young African American men) Yes, I know that most major sports have plenty of minorities, but the NBA is the only sport that focuses on individual players, and that I think allows for prejudices to come out. And sometimes the reality of who those players are doesn't really come out.

    This isn't blatant racism, this is subtle, subconscious or systemic.

    I think a great example, is how people cite that they don't like the NBA because of the hiphop culture. First of all, I'd argue the NBA doesn't really have that culture anymore. All the players dress like Steve Urkel or Blaine Anderson (glee..yea..glee.) We constantly see things focusing on Lebron reading the Hunger Games, or Kobe talking about how he loves Harry Potter and Lady Gaga. That's not hip hop.

    And second, all of the reasons people cite for disliking hiphop have to do with race. There's not difference between hiphop and rock..or pop...or country. So by "hiphop culture"..the meaning is clearly "black culture." And that makes people uncomfortable. Totally a form of subtle racism.

    So yes, I think racism contributes to the NBA being less popular than other major sports. But I don't think it contributes to attendance specifically. I think winning determines whether a team has high attendance or not. Consistent winning. The Pacers had low attendance with Troy and Dunleavy. If the Pacers win, the fans will come back.

  19. #91
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    Default Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

    Here's where I am on the 'thug' word:
    Some people see it as code for something else. Personally, I don't use it as code for anything and I'm sure many others don't either. OTOH, I wouldn't be surprised if some (read:a few) were using it as code (or a more accepted way of saying something else). Since some (read: several) see it as offensive then I just don't use the word in normal conversation if I can avoid it.
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    Default Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

    rough hockey players are called goons, at least that's the term I have always heard rather than thug.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

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    Default Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Thug has no racial connotations. If anyone thinks it does that is their own issue.
    Denial is not just a river in Egypt, and projection is not just a way to show movies on a screen...

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    Default Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

    Quote Originally Posted by dal9 View Post
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    Denial is not just a river in Egypt, and projection is not just a way to show movies on a screen...
    Do you have something to actually say? I think I could probably take offense to what you are accusing me of in this sentence, but it's not worth my time. And frankly as someone who comes from a family that is mixed racially I don't see any reason to have to defend anything I've said in here. I know better than most of you how some of the sleeze balls in Indiana and in other states act, but no it does not really impact the NBA or its attendance.

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    Last edited by Trader Joe; 02-23-2013 at 12:29 AM.

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  23. #95

    Default Re: Kravitz: Pacers attendance woes not tied to racism

    These are my reasons for the low attendance (sorry if I'm repeating anything):

    1. I agree with Kravitz, one season of high level basketball is not long enough to convince the casual bandwagon fans, and those are the fans who
    are missing at the moment. I'm talking about the fans that need to be associating themselves with a winning sports team, not necessarily the Pacers,
    the fans that are willing to invest in season tickets, but only if the team is very competitive i.e contending for a championship.

    2. I feel the character of the league has changed drastically since the 90s. There are no longer any real rivalries in the game. No real passion. Only stars.
    I think that change of culture is a bad fit with a blue collar state like Indiana. (I've never been to Indiana but that's my guess )

    3. What I've always thought, the NBA regular season is way too long, and the regular season games are relatively meaningless. if the season was half as long,
    each game's significance would multiply and it would also prevent a lot of injuries to the players. Win-win in my book.

    4. The bad economy obviously has its effects.

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