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Thread: Jay's unpopular "midseason" (close enough) opinions

  1. #26
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jay's unpopular "midseason" (close enough) opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by MTM View Post
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    By trying too hard to be diplomatic, you ended up re-stating what most of us already agree with. Not enough spice or sizzle to be labeled as an unpopular opinion post. Now, if you had gone a step further and suggested we start Tyler to move West to the 2nd unit to help boost 2nd unit scoring and get more out of Tyler in long stretches... now THAT would have been cool.

    Well, fine, I'll step it up. Unfortunately, the original post sat in draft form for most of the weekend and I just decided to post it instead of fix it.

    So I started on this point last night in the IU thread on Market Square, but I'll finish it here:

    While I'm happy with Paul George's progress, I'm still not convinced that a lot of it was the result of the "system" - somebody is going to be our top wing player and with a solid 1, 4, and 5 around them, which the Pacers already have, the #1 wing is generally going to look good. So I think his level of play "returns to earth" with Danny's return just because the same "system" benefits now will be allocated among both of them. And I still believe a "healthy" Danny Granger is a better player than Paul George.

    So if the Pacers have the opportunity to move either Paul George or a healthy Granger (who even if healthy doesn't strike me as the type of player -- at this stage of his career -- that a team with a top-5 pick would be interested in) for the right to draft Olidipo, I'm in favor of that trade.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jay's unpopular "midseason" (close enough) opinions

    If you traded George for Olidipo, the trade would basically be a failure if Olidipo wasn't an all star by his third season.

    But I'm sure the Pacers view George as virtually being completely untouchable. You don't trade a 22 year old who made the AS game in his third season for the draft rights to someone who hasn't touched an NBA court. George is already what you hope that Olidipo could one day become. Why trade away a sure thing?

  3. #28
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    Default Re: Jay's unpopular "midseason" (close enough) opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    If you traded George for Olidipo, the trade would basically be a failure if Olidipo wasn't an all star by his third season.

    But I'm sure the Pacers view George as virtually being completely untouchable. You don't trade a 22 year old who made the AS game in his third season for the draft rights to someone who hasn't touched an NBA court. George is already what you hope that Olidipo could one day become. Why trade away a sure thing?
    That's the safe approach. And none of us know what the future holds for either of them. Nor do any of us know what Paul George is looking for in free agency.

    But what if Olidipo has a higher ceiling than George? (I think he does because I still see Paul George primarily as a catch-and-shoot guy on offense. I still think his ballhandling is a problem.)

    And from a team structure perspective, I still think the Pacers ultimately have to trade one of their SFs away and while I used to think that player would be Granger, when Paul George was ready to be the #1 wing, Granger's current injury status combined with his age really shrinks his trade value. So they may be locked in to Granger.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Jay's unpopular "midseason" (close enough) opinions

    If you trade PG you better get more than a player who will be an all star in 3 years. If you're keeping the 29 and 32 year old players in our starting line up then we need a player who is good now.
    "Danny Granger is one of the top players in the league. To move Danny, you better get a lot back." - Larry Bird

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    Default Re: Jay's unpopular "midseason" (close enough) opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    A midseason report from Jay? It feels like I stepped back to 2005.
    Jay, that single set of footprints in the sand from 2005 until this week is when a few of us diehards on the forum carried you through the storm.
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Jay's unpopular "midseason" (close enough) opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    That's the safe approach. And none of us know what the future holds for either of them. Nor do any of us know what Paul George is looking for in free agency.

    But what if Olidipo has a higher ceiling than George? (I think he does because I still see Paul George primarily as a catch-and-shoot guy on offense. I still think his ballhandling is a problem.)

    And from a team structure perspective, I still think the Pacers ultimately have to trade one of their SFs away and while I used to think that player would be Granger, when Paul George was ready to be the #1 wing, Granger's current injury status combined with his age really shrinks his trade value. So they may be locked in to Granger.
    I think it's safe to say that PG will be commanding max money if he keeps playing like this.

    I don't think we are completely locked into Granger. We are certainly locked into him for the remainder of the season because he hasn't touched the court, but next year he will be an expensive expiring contract. He will have the same appeal that Murphy had when we traded him for Collison. If he comes back and shows that he can stay healthy, then I have a feeling that quite a few teams would be willing to trade us something halfway decent for him next year.

    Paul George defends, get steals, rebounds, passes, shoots, and drives. He does all of this in a combination that earned him an all star position as a 22 year old in just his third year of play. That is what you hope that Olidipo could become one day. If he has a higher ceiling than George, then that's basically saying that he would be one of the elite players in the game. The odds of that happening aren't high. We have a team that can compete against the best right now, and trading an all-star for a rookie would set us back a couple of years.

  8. #32
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    Default Re: Jay's unpopular "midseason" (close enough) opinions

    You all know that I'm usually the one poo-poo'ing the projected impact of draft picks, and I typically don't say much in the pre-draft hype threads around here.

    But what if Olidipo's trajectory looks more like Irving's? But on a better team with better quality teammates instead of being a one-man show?

    Believe me, I'd rather trade Gerald Green for a high enough pick but that just isn't going to get the job done. I don't think Granger would get the job done either (and would be pretty difficult to trade on draft day from a salary perspective, too.)
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  9. #33
    Member Since86's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jay's unpopular "midseason" (close enough) opinions

    I don't think you trade the guy that's 3/4ths of the way there to draft a guy that might get there. I think a known commidity is more valuable than an unknown one.

    I don't think Vic's upside is higher than Paul's. His best strength out of the gate is his defense, which is also PG's best strength. It's much more likely for Vic to turn into a super athletic Bruce Bowen, with the ability to go to the rim, than a Dwayne Wade.
    Last edited by Since86; 02-20-2013 at 11:33 AM.

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  11. #34
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    Default Re: Jay's unpopular "midseason" (close enough) opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    IIf he has a higher ceiling than George, then that's basically saying that he would be one of the elite players in the game.
    That's what I'm saying.

    The odds of that happening aren't high.
    True.

    We have a team that can compete against the best right now, and trading an all-star for a rookie would set us back a couple of years.
    Well, I believe we can compete with Miami because of matchups, but I don't think we match up well with NYK, SAS, or OKC right now. Not sure about the Clippers but I'm not sure I believe in the Clippers as a contender either.

    So while I'm pretty happy with a core of Hill - West - Hibbert over the next, say, three seasons, I think there is still a lot of flexibility on wing. But I don't think George-Granger, basically two SFs, is the best solution. And I don't know that Granger will ever have the trade value that he used to have so he might be the one who is worth more to us as a player than as a bargaining chip. And that's okay, some players are worth more as players than as commodities.

    When George goes back to playing primarily against SGs, well, time will tell. I think part of his rapid progression was because he was playing more against SFs, where he's better suited.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  12. #35
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    Default Re: Jay's unpopular "midseason" (close enough) opinions

    Why do you think that we don't match up well against the Knicks?
    "Danny Granger is one of the top players in the league. To move Danny, you better get a lot back." - Larry Bird

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    Default Re: Jay's unpopular "midseason" (close enough) opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by cgg View Post
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    Oh and Carmelo "greatest scorer of all time" Anthony is shooting 56.4 TS%

    Danny Granger's career TS% is 56.4%
    I nominate this the "Come'on Man!" post of the day.


    Comparing Carmelo and Danny offensively is useless. Melo wins that argument all day long, any day. Melo's year this year beats Danny's best season if we're comparing offense.

    Where Danny has a slight edge is on the defensive side of the ball.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    GOOD GOD THAT'S LARRY BIRD'S MUSIC!

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    Default Re: Jay's unpopular "midseason" (close enough) opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    I nominate this the "Come'on Man!" post of the day.


    Comparing Carmelo and Danny offensively is useless. Melo wins that argument all day long, any day. Melo's year this year beats Danny's best season if we're comparing offense.

    Where Danny has a slight edge is on the defensive side of the ball.
    I'm not trying to compare them. My point is that he's not going to beat us by himself very often with Paul George guarding him.

    Everything they do on offense is everything the Pacers are good at defending.
    "Danny Granger is one of the top players in the league. To move Danny, you better get a lot back." - Larry Bird

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    Default Re: Jay's unpopular "midseason" (close enough) opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Jay, that single set of footprints in the sand with the parallel deep trenches from 2005 until this week is when a few of us diehards on the forum dragged you kicking and screaming you through the storm.
    fixed
    BillS

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    Default Re: Jay's unpopular "midseason" (close enough) opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by cgg View Post
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    Why do you think that we don't match up well against the Knicks?
    Size and athleticism on the interior, with the ability to push Roy off the block at will.

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    Default Re: Jay's unpopular "midseason" (close enough) opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    Size and athleticism on the interior, with the ability to push Roy off the block at will.
    I agree that they can push Roy around, but we also have a lot of size in our frontcourt. Ian gives some of the athleticism, though it's true they have a lot more of the latter than we do. I thought West struggled against them, but that seems to me like a matchup where he could ultimately come out on top in the long run (7 game series). Maybe not.

    But once you look from the SF spot up to PG, I'll easily take my chances with that team.

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    Default Re: Jay's unpopular "midseason" (close enough) opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    Size and athleticism on the interior, with the ability to push Roy off the block at will.
    If a team can slow down my 5th option but I can slow down their their 1 2 3 4 options, then I feel pretty good about it.
    "Danny Granger is one of the top players in the league. To move Danny, you better get a lot back." - Larry Bird

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    Default Re: Jay's unpopular "midseason" (close enough) opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    While Paul's offense is still primarily as a catch-and-shoot guy, he brought defense and wing rebounding to the second quarter of an NBA all-star game
    I disagree about Paul's offensive game. What has marked his development is his ability now to get to the rim, or create for himself in the mid-range game. Granted, he still does a lot of catch-and-shooting, but that's due to good offensive ball movement and him being open. As far as creating for himself, I believe he's surpassed Granger.

  21. #43
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    Default Re: Jay's unpopular "midseason" (close enough) opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by cgg View Post
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    If a team can slow down my 5th option but I can slow down their their 1 2 3 4 options, then I feel pretty good about it.


    I don't feel good about our ability to slow down Anthony. Sure would like to see it tonight, though!

    Hicks makes a good point that David West would improve over the course of a seven game series.

    Matchups and adjustments...

    I just think that the adjustments we can possibly force Miami to make actually play into our hands. And I think the opposite happens with the Knicks. But hey, that's why they play the games.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  22. #44
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    Default Re: Jay's unpopular "midseason" (close enough) opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I don't feel good about our ability to slow down Anthony. Sure would like to see it tonight, though!

    Hicks makes a good point that David West would improve over the course of a seven game series.

    Matchups and adjustments...

    I just think that the adjustments we can possibly force Miami to make actually play into our hands. And I think the opposite happens with the Knicks. But hey, that's why they play the games.
    The Knicks don't make adjustments. They iso and kick out for threes.
    "Danny Granger is one of the top players in the league. To move Danny, you better get a lot back." - Larry Bird

  23. #45
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    Default Re: Jay's unpopular "midseason" (close enough) opinions

    Taking these in the opposite order:

    Quote Originally Posted by adamscb View Post
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    As far as creating for himself, I believe he's surpassed Granger.
    That's not saying much. I don't think Granger is particuarly creative with the ball. That's been the source of his ceiling.

    I disagree about Paul's offensive game. What has marked his development is his ability now to get to the rim, or create for himself in the mid-range game. Granted, he still does a lot of catch-and-shooting, but that's due to good offensive ball movement and him being open.
    I think his passing is good. But I don't have much confidence when he puts the ball on the floor. I think he's ideally suited to benefit -- and benefit quite nicely -- from off the ball movement.

    So I don't want the masses to think I'm saying he's just going to park someplace, wait for the ball, and shoot it quickly. I think his off the ball movement is good. I just don't like to see him put the ball on the court. Maybe that will change, but I don't see it getting much better "during" the course of a season. That's an offseason focus item for him, and like Reggie, like Danny, that's always going to be true for him. He's a shooter (and a very good one), not a scorer.

    None of that should disparage his defense and rebounding. Those are outstanding. I'm just saying on offense I don't see him as being particuarly versatile. At least not yet.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  24. #46
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    Default Re: Jay's unpopular "midseason" (close enough) opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by cgg View Post
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    The Knicks don't make adjustments. They iso and kick out for threes.

    Sorry - referring to adjustments over the course of a playoff series. Although, if you're saying Mike Woodson isn't going to make any adjustments in a seven-game series, then .
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  25. #47
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    Default Re: Jay's unpopular "midseason" (close enough) opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Sorry - referring to adjustments over the course of a playoff series. Although, if you're saying Mike Woodson isn't going to make any adjustments in a seven-game series, then .
    Look at their team. What are they going to adjust? They start Jason Kidd at the 2 and Shumpert at the 3 and they have fans complaining that James White doesn't start.
    "Danny Granger is one of the top players in the league. To move Danny, you better get a lot back." - Larry Bird

  26. #48

    Default Re: Jay's unpopular "midseason" (close enough) opinions

    I too worry about the Knicks. In theory we match up well against them, but it feels like when we match up they win the majority of the time. hopefully the Pacers put an end to this doubts of mine tonight

    But onto your point about Lance, I totally agree. While I'm pleased with how far Lance has come as a player and he has definitely cut down on his dumb plays, I have noticed he some times really interferes with the ball movement. Several times the ball is swinging and Lance stops and takes a few seconds off the shot clock to see if he can beat his man off the dribble. Not necessarily penetration, but size up dribbles on the perimeter that never really accomplish much. More often than not he's forced to pass it out after the shot clock is dwindled down, which typically forces a poor shot from our offense.

  27. #49
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    Default Re: Jay's unpopular "midseason" (close enough) opinions

    How 'bout them Knicks?
    "Danny Granger is one of the top players in the league. To move Danny, you better get a lot back." - Larry Bird

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    Default Re: Jay's unpopular "midseason" (close enough) opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Pace Maker View Post
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    I too worry about the Knicks. In theory we match up well against them, but it feels like when we match up they win the majority of the time. hopefully the Pacers put an end to this doubts of mine tonight
    ah, good times, good times.

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