View Poll Results: Who do you want?

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  • Paul George

    50 41.32%
  • Kyrie Irving

    71 58.68%
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Thread: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

  1. #151
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    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    Why did you make the jump from just "wing," to now the two wing positions are separated? Which one is Paul George?
    Regardless, you're not getting into the Gee/Butler class even if you do make a relatively arbitrary separation like that.

    Wade, Kobe, Harden, Joe Johnson, DeRozan, Mayo, Crawford, Klay Thompson, J.R. Smith, Redick, Afflalo, Kevin Martin, Beal, Gordon, Terry, Tony Allen, Ray Allen, Dudley

    That's 18 SG's off the top of my head who are clearly better than either guy. I'm sure there are more.

    LeBron, Durant, Melo, Pierce, George, Gay, Josh Smith, Deng, Batum, Galinari, Igoudala, Turner, Parsons, Marion, Metta, Dunleavy, Beasley, Brewer, Tayshaun

    There's 19 SF's. I'm probably forgetting some of them as well.

    But yes, the 15th best point guard is better than the 15th best SG or SF if you're going to make that separation. If you lump wings together, as you should, they're not even close.

    In respect to Kyrie vs. PG, I also don't understand at all why it matters what position they play in regards to their ability to get their team to a title. Yes, historically, there have been more wings and bigs win titles as a teams best player than point guards. Because there have been more of them that are the best players in the league. The amount of point guards who could be considered a top 3 player at any point in their career is miniscule compared to the amount of wings and bigs who could be considered at that level. If Kyrie is good enough to get into the conversation as a top-3 type player, he's good enough to be the best player on a title winning team. The same applies to PG. The position they play is irrelevant.

    So basically, Kyrie doesn't need a Duncan. He needs a Parker and a Ginobli. Kyrie can be the Duncan.

    Of course, they have the misfortune of playing at the same time as LeBron and KD so both guys probably won't ever be top-3 players at the same time.
    Last edited by BRushWithDeath; 02-20-2013 at 09:19 AM.
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  3. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    Regardless, you're not getting into the Gee/Butler class even if you do make a relatively arbitrary separation like that.

    Wade, Kobe, Harden, Joe Johnson, DeRozan, Mayo, Crawford, Klay Thompson, J.R. Smith, Redick, Afflalo, Kevin Martin, Beal, Gordon, Terry, Tony Allen, Ray Allen, Dudley

    That's 18 SG's off the top of my head who are clearly better than either guy. I'm sure there are more.

    LeBron, Durant, Melo, Pierce, George, Gay, Josh Smith, Deng, Batum, Galinari, Igoudala, Turner, Parsons, Marion, Metta, Dunleavy, Beasley, Brewer, Tayshaun

    There's 19 SF's. I'm probably forgetting some of them as well.

    But yes, the 15th best point guard is better than the 15th best SG or SF if you're going to make that separation. If you lump wings together, as you should, they're not even close.

    In respect to Kyrie vs. PG, I also don't understand at all why it matters what position they play in regards to their ability to get their team to a title. Yes, historically, there have been more wings and bigs win titles as a teams best player than point guards. Because there have been more of them that are the best players in the league. The amount of point guards who could be considered a top 3 player at any point in their career is miniscule compared to the amount of wings and bigs who could be considered at that level. If Kyrie is good enough to get into the conversation as a top-3 type player, he's good enough to be the best player on a title winning team. The same applies to PG. The position they play is irrelevant.

    So basically, Kyrie doesn't need a Duncan. He needs a Parker and a Ginobli. Kyrie can be the Duncan.

    Of course, they have the misfortune of playing at the same time as LeBron and KD so both guys probably won't ever be top-3 players at the same time.
    You can't simply lump them together. Some play both but many 3's are to slow or lack the lateral mobility to guard 2 guards, and many 2's are to short to play 3. P.G. has neither of these weaknesses.

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    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    Regardless, you're not getting into the Gee/Butler class even if you do make a relatively arbitrary separation like that.

    Wade, Kobe, Harden, Joe Johnson, DeRozan, Mayo, Crawford, Klay Thompson, J.R. Smith, Redick, Afflalo, Kevin Martin, Beal, Gordon, Terry, Tony Allen, Ray Allen, Dudley

    That's 18 SG's off the top of my head who are clearly better than either guy. I'm sure there are more.

    LeBron, Durant, Melo, Pierce, George, Gay, Josh Smith, Deng, Batum, Galinari, Igoudala, Turner, Parsons, Marion, Metta, Dunleavy, Beasley, Brewer, Tayshaun

    There's 19 SF's. I'm probably forgetting some of them as well.

    But yes, the 15th best point guard is better than the 15th best SG or SF if you're going to make that separation. If you lump wings together, as you should, they're not even close.

    In respect to Kyrie vs. PG, I also don't understand at all why it matters what position they play in regards to their ability to get their team to a title. Yes, historically, there have been more wings and bigs win titles as a teams best player than point guards. Because there have been more of them that are the best players in the league. The amount of point guards who could be considered a top 3 player at any point in their career is miniscule compared to the amount of wings and bigs who could be considered at that level. If Kyrie is good enough to get into the conversation as a top-3 type player, he's good enough to be the best player on a title winning team. The same applies to PG. The position they play is irrelevant.

    So basically, Kyrie doesn't need a Duncan. He needs a Parker and a Ginobli. Kyrie can be the Duncan.

    Of course, they have the misfortune of playing at the same time as LeBron and KD so both guys probably won't ever be top-3 players at the same time.
    I completely agree that the position doesn't define ones ability to get a ring. People love to point to wings as the ring-getters of late. Well ten years ago it was bigs. Before that it was wings again. Before that it was little guys. It just goes through cycles, and changes every 5-6 years or so. Point being, don't look at stuff like that and determine "well, a PG hasn't won a ring in 6 years, while wings have dominated; therefore PGs are unable of carrying their team to a title." It's a false theory. And like I said earlier in this thread, lil guys suffer from pure probability, because at almost any given time in league history there is a relatively low percentage of dominant PGs compared to wings. Right now we're at a low point of PGs and bigs... wings are the big constituent these days. We don't know who's going to dominate the league 5 years from now. I could see LeBron still being a factor... maybe Durant is hauling in ring after ring? Maybe PG ascends to heights none of us can predict? Maybe Kyrie is hauling in his second ring in two years? We don't know. I'm not even trying to predict that. I'm just saying right now and for the foreseeable future, Kyrie Irving is the Andrew Luck of the NBA --- the clear and obvious best player to enter the league in a number of years. He was the top choice in college... in the draft... in his rookie season, and people can look at him and say "Yea, that guy is special." And saying that is no slight to PG, that's like saying "Russell Wilson sucks"... well no, that's not true, in fact Russell Wilson is a beast and a stud and I could completely see him winning a ring before Luck. But Luck, to me is still the blue-chip, high pedigree talent. Russell Wilson is still a very, very, very, very, very good young player, with a chance to be something special, and who like PG was also under-rated and under-appreciated early on and grew into something special.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 02-20-2013 at 01:14 PM.
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    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    Why did you make the jump from just "wing," to now the two wing positions are separated? Which one is Paul George?
    Good point. I made this point because there are some players that are pretty clearly SGs (Bryant, Wade), some that are pretty clearly SFs (Gay, Granger, Pierce) and some players that tend to blur the lines (Paul George, Iguodala).
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    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    Wade, Kobe, Harden, Joe Johnson, DeRozan, Mayo, Crawford, Klay Thompson, J.R. Smith, Redick, Afflalo, Kevin Martin, Beal, Gordon, Terry, Tony Allen, Ray Allen, Dudley

    That's 18 SG's off the top of my head who are clearly better than either guy. I'm sure there are more.

    LeBron, Durant, Melo, Pierce, George, Gay, Josh Smith, Deng, Batum, Galinari, Igoudala, Turner, Parsons, Marion, Metta, Dunleavy, Beasley, Brewer, Tayshaun

    There's 19 SF's. I'm probably forgetting some of them as well.
    I see. Even if we were to lump them all together as wings.

    Would you take Redick, Afflalo, Beal, Gordon (not prime Gordon, this Gordon), Terry, Tony Allen, Ray Allen (again, this season's Ray Allen), Dudley, Metta, Dunleavy, Brewer, Beasley and Tayshaun (again, this year's Tayshaun) over Conley and Hill?
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    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    An interesting point of contention might be Irving VS. PG on the court. I don't see Irving being tasked to guard PG simply on size... but I could see PG being tasked to guard Irving, because he's shown capable of guarding smaller, quicker guards. PGs ability to defend almost any wing player is astounding. His length, speed, height, ability to stay in front, predict passing lanes, etc, might not be matched in the league right now.

    The difference with Irving, though... is that he's not like LeBron --- brute strength, power, speed. He's not like Derrick Rose --- speed, strength, shiftiness.

    Irving possesses little of that. His game is completely based on him breaking you down off the dribble using angles, leverage, momentum --- in other words... his mind, and his body control and quickness, good decision-making, good shooter. I could honestly see Irving being able to have success against PG. I could see him breaking PG down off the dribble. Now, that said, I could also see PG giving Kyrie fits here and there. But of all the wing players in the league, I think Kyrie might have more success than most people against PG. That's how strong his 1-on-1 game is. Kyrie isn't just 1-on-1 though... he often breaks down his defender, only to find a cutter or an open man... once he breaks you down, he goes in so many different directions. I am very excited and interested to see what kind of team they put around him. Right now I don't feel like he has any team around him, tbo. And that's one of my concerns with Kyrie is that he landed with such an inept organization, historically speaking. He may never reach the heights he's capable of as long as he's in Cleveland.

    Kyrie to me has the highest pure raw skillset of any PG in the league, and that's including CP3 and Deron Williams and Rondo. Right now I'd place those three guys above him, but I don't think that's going to be the case for long. In two years, I think we'll be referring to Kyrie as the best PG in the world.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 02-20-2013 at 01:47 PM.
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    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    I would have said Rose is more skilled than Kyrie, but with the knee now who knows. Kyrie might have the best raw tool kit. BUt you could also make the case that outside of Lebron, PG has the best raw toolkit of any wing.

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    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Yea, PG does have a very complete skillset, but the only skill of his that I consider "elite" is his defense. His offense is still coming and while effective, far from "elite". He can be shut down or thrown off his game on occasion, and he's not yet at a point where he can score at will at any time.
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  11. #159
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    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I see. Even if we were to lump them all together as wings.

    Would you take Redick, Afflalo, Beal, Gordon (not prime Gordon, this Gordon), Terry, Tony Allen, Ray Allen (again, this season's Ray Allen), Dudley, Metta, Dunleavy, Brewer, Beasley and Tayshaun (again, this year's Tayshaun) over Conley and Hill?
    A couple of them possibly but now you are comparing a 12-15ish PG to a 25-35ish wing. What is the point?
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    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    A couple of them possibly but now you are comparing a 12-15ish PG to a 25-35ish wing. What is the point?
    Here are the players you mentioned that I consider clearly better than Hill and Conley:

    Wade, Kobe, Harden, Joe Johnson, LeBron, Durant, Melo, Pierce, George, Gay, Josh Smith, Deng, Batum, Galinari, Iguodala.

    I consider it a wash with everyone else that I didn't mention the previous post. If you count those players, they are 15th.

    So, we're essentialy comparing the 15th PG with the 15th wing (combined SGs and SFs).
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    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Here are the players you mentioned that I consider clearly better than Hill and Conley:

    Wade, Kobe, Harden, Joe Johnson, LeBron, Durant, Melo, Pierce, George, Gay, Josh Smith, Deng, Batum, Galinari, Iguodala.

    I consider it a wash with everyone else that I didn't mention the previous post. If you count those players, they are 15th.

    So, we're essentialy comparing the 15th PG with the 15th wing (combined SGs and SFs).
    I cannot grasp what point you're trying to make. Doesn't saying that the 15th best wing is about the same as the 15th best point guard validate that position is irrelevant to the discussion?
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    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    I cannot grasp what point you're trying to make. Doesn't saying that the 15th best wing is about the same as the 15th best point guard validate that position is irrelevant to the discussion?
    If you're lumping together SGs and SFs as wings then it is irrelevant. If you don't, then it isn't.
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    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Kyrie Irving and Paul George are both amazing young basketball players. We should consider ourselves extremely lucky to have one of them on our team.
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    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by SMosley21 View Post
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    Kyrie Irving and Paul George are both amazing young basketball players. We should consider ourselves extremely lucky to have one of them on our team.
    Agreed
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    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    If you're lumping together SGs and SFs as wings then it is irrelevant. If you don't, then it isn't.
    Do you even know which side of the argument you are on anymore? You should run for President of whatever country you live in. If your European politics are anything like American politics, your flip flopping would be perfect.

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    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    How many point guards did we have to run through between Mark Jackson and George Hill? It was a neverending carousel.

    Yes, today's NBA has a lot of young talent at the position, but historically for us, it's been an incredibly difficult position to fill. I think it's a lot easier to find a good wing than it is a good point guard, and yes, that's because SG and SF are largely interchangeable as far as their position go.

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    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by PR07 View Post
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    How many point guards did we have to run through between Mark Jackson and George Hill? It was a neverending carousel.

    Yes, today's NBA has a lot of young talent at the position, but historically for us, it's been an incredibly difficult position to fill. I think it's a lot easier to find a good wing than it is a good point guard, and yes, that's because SG and SF are largely interchangeable as far as their position go.
    The real issue is, it doesn't matter what position any team's best player plays when it comes to winning a championship. It matters how great that best player is.

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    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    Do you even know which side of the argument you are on anymore? You should run for President of whatever country you live in. If your European politics are anything like American politics, your flip flopping would be perfect.
    Well, my main argument is that I wouldn't choose to build my franchise around a PG as I consider that there are more good PGs around than any other position, I guess
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    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    The real issue is, it doesn't matter what position any team's best player plays when it comes to winning a championship. It matters how great that best player is.
    True, but all things being considered equal (and in this case it's too early to tell who has more "greatness" between George and Irving), I'm looking at position.

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    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I would have said Rose is more skilled than Kyrie, but with the knee now who knows. Kyrie might have the best raw tool kit. BUt you could also make the case that outside of Lebron, PG has the best raw toolkit of any wing.
    Kyrie might have the best tool kit. There's some raw things about him. Also a whole lot of developed things about him.

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    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    How is Paul George better than Kyrie if according to some people here Paul George is not even better than Danny Granger? hell some people don't even think Paul George is better than David West.

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    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Chris Paul?

    Also, I'm not talking about the top players in their positions either. I'm not talking about All-Stars only. I'm talking about those players that are not of an All-Star level but are pretty damn good. The Mike Conleys and George Hills of the league. They are significantly better than the Caron Butlers and the Alonzo Gees of the league
    Deron Williams. Jason Kidd.
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    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    How is Paul George better than Kyrie if according to some people here Paul George is not even better than Danny Granger? hell some people don't even think Paul George is better than David West.
    More important to the offense than*
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    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    You have to pick Paul because of potential. No offense to Kyrie but he already is almost as good has he will ever be. Paul has so much room to grow still and he's already averaging almost 18 8 and 4 and is a defensive stopper. That's scary. Kyrie is a 6'3 pg with a lightning quick handle and a deadeye shooter. Paul George is a 6'9 sg with a limited handle who is a streaky shooter and still struggles but has superstar athleticism. If I didn't think Paul could tap into his potential then I'd say Kyrie in a second but from what I've seen this year PG is a man who is finally realizing what he can do on the court. With even limited growth next year PG can be averaging 22 9 and 5. That's crazy

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    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Not sure if this has been posted anywhere but there was some high praise thrown Paul's way from ESPN chats yesterday. One from Wilbon and the other Michael Wallace. Just a couple interesting perspectives from a couple national guys who watch, talk, and write a lot of basketball.

    pj (midlo)

    rank your top 10 players today in NBA. my list starts with Lebron (1),
    Michael Wallace (3:56 PM)

    I know I'm leaving a few guys off, and this is in no particular order after the first two names. Rose and Rondo would be in there somewhere, but I left them out due to injuries. But these were the first 10 to come to my mind. LeBron Durant CP3 Kobe Wade Dwight Parker Duncan P.George Carmelo
    Tom (Gery)

    Mike - do you buy into the Pacer's being a legitimate threat to the Heat in the playoffs? I like Indy's squad, they play tough defense, but didn't the Heat just beat them 4-2 last year - without Bosh!
    mike wilbon (2:01 PM)

    Yeah, but Paul George is better now. If I was handing in my All-NBA ballot today, let's see...LeBron and Durant, Kobe...I could put Paul George in that other slot because Chris Paul has missed some games. Maybe CP3 and George fill out my all-NBA team. I'd put him ahead of Carmelo if the Pacers finish ahead of the Knicks, which I think they will. Nobody on Denver ahead of Paul, nobody on Golden State...Tony Parker deserves serious consideration, for sure...Nobody on the Bulls or Nets...George is a better player, a borderline star...he takes over games now. Granger could give them depth off the bench...I think Indiana is the other conference finalist...They won't beat Miami, but could really challenge them.
    Last edited by bunt; 02-26-2013 at 05:12 PM.

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