View Poll Results: Who do you want?

Voters
121. You may not vote on this poll
  • Paul George

    50 41.32%
  • Kyrie Irving

    71 58.68%
Page 6 of 8 FirstFirst ... 2345678 LastLast
Results 126 to 150 of 194

Thread: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

  1. #126
    DIET COKE! Trader Joe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Troll Hunting
    Age
    26
    Posts
    31,690

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I find it curious how many people are willing to attribute many of these recent championships to the fact that the best player on the team was an all-important wing, and ignore the fact that those wings are, without exception, the greatest players of their generation. Since Jordan retired, none of those wings who won titles (except Lebron last year, who had another generational level great wing player beside him) did so without the help of an all-time great big man as well. Jordan had a great run, but like Lebron, he also had a great wing player with him as well, but more importantly he was the greatest player of all time.

    It seems to me that what position the best player plays, is mostly irrelevant. It's more about how great that player is, and what kind of team he has around him.

    Saying point guards can't effect the game as much as a wing is just crazy, in my opinion. This question shouldn't be about which position is the most important, point guard or wing. It should be about which player has a chance to turn into the better individual player, Paul George or Kyrie Irving.
    I think point guards do affect the game, but at some point it starts to become diminishing returns into the total impact of the game, I don't know it's a tough question. I'm a sucker for point guards because my favorite thing to do when playing ball is setting people up to score, so I lean towards liking them more. Like I've said since page 1, Paul's evolution as a creator over the last 15-20 games is what has moved him in front of Kyrie for me, in just my humblest of opinions, and by a slight margin. Heck in February, they are averaging the same amount of assists. Kyrie is the better scorer. Paul is the much better defender. Paul is the better rebounder, but Kyrie is not bad on the boards for a point.

    Like has been said multiple times, it's just amazing we're able to actually discuss Paul alongside Kyrie right now. Never would have guessed that four months ago. Kyrie is still my favorite young player in the league that is not on the P's and it's amazing to have a guy that can stand in the same breath as him.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
    momentarygodsblog.com https://twitter.com/momentarygods

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Trader Joe For This Useful Post:


  3. #127
    All Hail CJ Watson! Nuntius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Somewhere in Southern Europe
    Posts
    19,922

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I think point guards do affect the game, but at some point it starts to become diminishing returns into the total impact of the game, I don't know it's a tough question.
    Point guard of course affect the game. They affect the game because they implement the coach's system. They are the ones that control the pace of the game and they must be able to make good decisions. But a player does not have to be a top 10 player to do those things. A good but not great PG is more than capable of contributing a lot in his team's title chances.

    Good points that know how to dictate the game but don't dominate the ball. That's what wins championships. A Chauncey Billups type of point.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

    -------------

    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Nuntius For This Useful Post:


  5. #128
    Droppin' knowledge, yo. Mackey_Rose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    The Dragon's Lair
    Posts
    4,124

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Finals MVP's by Position in the post-Jordan era:

    2012 - SF (Lebron James)
    2011 - PF (Dirk Nowitzki)
    2010 - SG (Kobe Bryant)
    2009 - SG (Kobe Bryant)
    2008 - SF (Paul Pierce)
    2007 - PG (Tony Parker)
    2006 - SG (Dwyane Wade)
    2005 - PF/C (Tim Duncan)
    2004 - PG (Chauncey Billups)
    2003 - PF/C (Tim Duncan)
    2002 - C (Shaquille O'Neal)
    2001 - C (Shaquille O'Neal)
    2000 - C (Shaquille O'Neal)
    1999 - PF/C (Tim Duncan)

    There have been 14 NBA Finals since Jordan retired. The MVP of those Finals has been won by 9 different players. 2 PG's, 2 SG's, 2 SF's, 1 PF, 1 C, and 1 PF/C.

    So what is more important? Position, or the pure greatness of the player, regardless of position?

  6. #129
    Indiana Pacers Forever Pacer Fan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    ya
    Posts
    3,871
    Mood

    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    When in doubt, be a Homer!
    .

    Frank Vogel says "Killer instinct, start strong, build a lead and then step on their throats."

  7. #130
    Droppin' knowledge, yo. Mackey_Rose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    The Dragon's Lair
    Posts
    4,124

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer Fan View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    When in doubt, be a Homer!
    I really don't think picking Paul George in this debate makes you a homer. I think there is a very legitimate argument that can be made for both of them.

    I don't think what position they play is a determining factor, and I definitely don't think it's a clear cut choice either way.

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to Mackey_Rose For This Useful Post:


  9. #131
    yawn cgg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Delray Beach, FL
    Age
    30
    Posts
    2,956

    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I really don't think picking Paul George in this debate makes you a homer. I think there is a very legitimate argument that can be made for both of them.

    I don't think what position they play is a determining factor, and I definitely don't think it's a clear cut choice either way.
    I think position is a factor when the best 2 players in the league are wings and slowing them down is going to contribute to your success. I don't know how high on the list of factors it is, but it is a factor.

  10. #132
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Downtown baby
    Posts
    12,635

    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    This is tough, I love Kyrie, earlier this season I expressed he may be my favorite young player to watch in the NBA. But historically big time wings win more than big time point guards. Paul has physical gifts that Kyrie will never have.
    That's my view. As we discussed during the game, there was reason Spo (too late) took out Kryie and put Paul back in late in that game - he wanted to win and needed defense and threes.

    Irving is amazing, maybe better handles that Chris Paul. But PG can do everything and that includes guarding Irving at times. Irving is more of a very talented specialist while PG has become the "whatever you need done" guy while somehow being really strong in most of those areas. He doesn't have one thing he does as well as Irving's best thing (handles) but he impacts the game more in total.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Naptown_Seth For This Useful Post:


  12. #133
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Downtown baby
    Posts
    12,635

    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Finals MVP's by Position in the post-Jordan era:

    2012 - SF (Lebron James)
    2011 - PF (Dirk Nowitzki)
    2010 - SG (Kobe Bryant)
    2009 - SG (Kobe Bryant)
    2008 - SF (Paul Pierce)
    2007 - PG (Tony Parker)
    2006 - SG (Dwyane Wade)
    2005 - PF/C (Tim Duncan)
    2004 - PG (Chauncey Billups)
    2003 - PF/C (Tim Duncan)
    2002 - C (Shaquille O'Neal)
    2001 - C (Shaquille O'Neal)
    2000 - C (Shaquille O'Neal)
    1999 - PF/C (Tim Duncan)

    There have been 14 NBA Finals since Jordan retired. The MVP of those Finals has been won by 9 different players. 2 PG's, 2 SG's, 2 SF's, 1 PF, 1 C, and 1 PF/C.

    So what is more important? Position, or the pure greatness of the player, regardless of position?
    But let's be fair. There is ONE PG on the list that wasn't paired with another Finals MVP winner. Parker was great, no doubt, but Duncan was still on that team.

    You are going by number of players who won at each position, but let's look at MVP wins by position regardless of repeats.
    Now there are 2 PG, 3 SG, 2 SF, 1 PF, 6 C (because Duncan was doing as a true center/low post guy). And if you break down the roles it's clear that Dirk as a non-defender, non-power rebounder was really just a glorified go-to shooter SF, not a true PF type.

    So what wins you titles is a guy that can defend the wing or the rim and can attack on offense so bad that you can't do much about it. You could feed Tim and Shaq in the post and they couldn't be stopped. Otherwise you had to have a guy with good length that could hit jumpers or get to the FT line when the defense got tough.

    The NBA had seen A TON of ultra-quick break-you-down PGs that could score (AI, Marbury, etc). I'm not even counting Nash because he was as much a facilitator for others. He scored to keep you honest more than operating as your top 1-2 shooting threat. And none of those guys carried their team to a title.

    Even Billups didn't quite work that way. He was a unique guy on a very balanced team built on defense. He hit the big jumpers partly out of the Detroit system more than a Kobe "now I'll just beat you" way.

    Parker is the only guy that would be close to that Irving "break you down and score" style, and again he had Duncan on the court with him. And the Spurs are the best "system" team in the NBA thanks to Pop.



    Irving is great and will be great. Chris Paul might have a chance at a title with the LAC (though they don't seem like favorites vs Durant or SAS). But bang for buck it has seemed like having your main scorer be a small PG isn't a good path toward a title.

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to Naptown_Seth For This Useful Post:


  14. #134
    DIET COKE! Trader Joe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Troll Hunting
    Age
    26
    Posts
    31,690

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    To be fair Seth, Irving is not a small PG. He's not the mismatch PG can be, but he's not small either.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
    momentarygodsblog.com https://twitter.com/momentarygods

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to Trader Joe For This Useful Post:


  16. #135
    Droppin' knowledge, yo. Mackey_Rose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    The Dragon's Lair
    Posts
    4,124

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    But let's be fair. There is ONE PG on the list that wasn't paired with another Finals MVP winner. Parker was great, no doubt, but Duncan was still on that team.

    You are going by number of players who won at each position, but let's look at MVP wins by position regardless of repeats.
    Now there are 2 PG, 3 SG, 2 SF, 1 PF, 6 C (because Duncan was doing as a true center/low post guy). And if you break down the roles it's clear that Dirk as a non-defender, non-power rebounder was really just a glorified go-to shooter SF, not a true PF type.

    So what wins you titles is a guy that can defend the wing or the rim and can attack on offense so bad that you can't do much about it. You could feed Tim and Shaq in the post and they couldn't be stopped. Otherwise you had to have a guy with good length that could hit jumpers or get to the FT line when the defense got tough..
    You are right, there is one PG that wasn't paired with another Finals' MVP winner in Chauncey Billups. Beyond him, there are only 3 other players who could qualify under that restriction. Paul Pierce didn't have another Finals' MVP winner with him, but he did have 2 other Hall of Famers. Kobe had another 1st ballot Hall of Famer in Pau Gasol. Dirk is easily the most impressive, because he did so much on his own. That was an absolutely incredible run of shooting he had in the 2011 playoffs, and is something we aren't likely to ever see matched any time soon.

    Why does the fact they most of these guys were matched up with other Finals' MVP caliber players only work against the PG's?

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to Mackey_Rose For This Useful Post:


  18. #136
    All Hail CJ Watson! Nuntius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Somewhere in Southern Europe
    Posts
    19,922

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    So what is more important? Position, or the pure greatness of the player, regardless of position?
    I think that it's relatively important to note that those 2 PGs who won were of the scoring variety and not the true PG one.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

    -------------

    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

  19. The Following User Says Thank You to Nuntius For This Useful Post:


  20. #137
    Droppin' knowledge, yo. Mackey_Rose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    The Dragon's Lair
    Posts
    4,124

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I think that it's relatively important to note that those 2 PGs who won were of the scoring variety and not the true PG one.
    Kyrie Irving certainly fits more into the mold of Tony Parker than he does Chris Paul.

  21. #138
    All Hail CJ Watson! Nuntius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Somewhere in Southern Europe
    Posts
    19,922

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Kyrie Irving certainly fits more into the mold of Tony Parker than he does Chris Paul.
    Agreed. Who will be his Duncan?
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

    -------------

    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

  22. #139
    Droppin' knowledge, yo. Mackey_Rose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    The Dragon's Lair
    Posts
    4,124

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Agreed. Who will be his Duncan?
    That is entirely irrelevant in regards to this thread.

  23. #140
    All Hail CJ Watson! Nuntius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Somewhere in Southern Europe
    Posts
    19,922

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    That is entirely irrelevant in regards to this thread.
    True. But it isn't entirely irrelevant with the possibility of a point guard winning a ring.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

    -------------

    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

  24. #141
    Member PR07's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    4,973

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    If I had no previous allegiances and you told me to pick one, I'd probably pick Irving. I think he plays a position that is harder to fill in point guard, the field general of the court.

    However, the homer in me would pick George.

  25. #142
    All Hail CJ Watson! Nuntius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Somewhere in Southern Europe
    Posts
    19,922

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by PR07 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I think he plays a position that is harder to fill.
    That isn't true in this era, though. This is an amazing generation of point guards. There are several good point guards out there as the last few drafts were quite deep in PG production.

    Wings? I'd say that a quality wing is harder to find at the moment than a quality point guard.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

    -------------

    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

  26. #143
    Member PR07's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    4,973

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    That isn't true in this era, though. This is an amazing generation of point guards. There are several good point guards out there as the last few drafts were quite deep in PG production.

    Wings? I'd say that a quality wing is harder to find at the moment than a quality point guard.
    I'm not sure we can say that, I mean the Pacers have arguably two all-star caliber wings. In the past year, we've seen three all-star caliber wings get moved in Andre Iguodala, James Harden, and Rudy Gay. When's the last time an all-star PG in their prime got moved?

  27. #144
    All Hail CJ Watson! Nuntius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Somewhere in Southern Europe
    Posts
    19,922

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by PR07 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    When's the last time an all-star PG in their prime got moved?
    Chris Paul?

    Also, I'm not talking about the top players in their positions either. I'm not talking about All-Stars only. I'm talking about those players that are not of an All-Star level but are pretty damn good. The Mike Conleys and George Hills of the league. They are significantly better than the Caron Butlers and the Alonzo Gees of the league
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

    -------------

    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

  28. The Following User Says Thank You to Nuntius For This Useful Post:


  29. #145
    Member spazzxb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    fort wayne In
    Age
    35
    Posts
    2,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bshall View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    When it comes down to the games elite players it doesn't matter what system you run. You change your system to fit with your stars, not the other way around. This is something the Lakers need to figure out.

    And comparing Kyrie to George Hill is absolutely insane. Irving was better than George Hill the second he was drafted, and that's in any system.
    Dwight Howard needs to realize he isn't as good as he thinks. He is a freak, however I believe he cares more about his own numbers than winning. H e needs to be a dominant rebounder and shot blocker, but is better as a complimentary player on offense. Not sure there is any team that would satisfy him and be successful. Howard wants to be the focus of the offense, however his offensive skills are limited.

    Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk 2

  30. #146
    Droppin' knowledge, yo. Mackey_Rose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    The Dragon's Lair
    Posts
    4,124

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Chris Paul?

    Also, I'm not talking about the top players in their positions either. I'm not talking about All-Stars only. I'm talking about those players that are not of an All-Star level but are pretty damn good. The Mike Conleys and George Hills of the league. They are significantly better than the Caron Butlers and the Alonzo Gees of the league
    You think those guys are on similar tiers of their respective positions?

  31. The Following User Says Thank You to Mackey_Rose For This Useful Post:


  32. #147
    All Hail CJ Watson! Nuntius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Somewhere in Southern Europe
    Posts
    19,922

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    You think those guys are on similar tiers of their respective positions?
    That's the point. They are not. The good but not great PGs are far better than the good but not great SFs. Hill is supposed to be in the 15 range for PGs, right? Which is the 15th best SF? Which is the 15th best SG?

    That's my point. This is a great generation for PGs. The availability is sky high. That's my argument.

    Wings are more rare at the moment and that's why I will prefer a potential elite Wing from a potential elite PG.

    PS: I also believe that you don't need an elite PG to win a ring, though. You need a good, complete, reliable player that will implement the team's system.
    Last edited by Nuntius; 02-19-2013 at 10:55 PM.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

    -------------

    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

  33. #148
    Droppin' knowledge, yo. Mackey_Rose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    The Dragon's Lair
    Posts
    4,124

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    That's the point. They are not. The good but not great PGs are far better than the good but not great SFs. Hill is supposed to be in the 15 range for PGs, right? Which is the 15th best SF? Which is the 15th best SG?

    That's my point. This is a great generation for PGs. The availability is sky high. That's my argument.

    Wings are more rare at the moment and that's why I will prefer a potential elite Wing from a potential elite PG.
    The 15th best wing is not Alonzo Gee or Caron Butler. You're comparing apples to oranges.

  34. The Following User Says Thank You to Mackey_Rose For This Useful Post:


  35. #149
    All Hail CJ Watson! Nuntius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Somewhere in Southern Europe
    Posts
    19,922

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    The 15th best wing is not Alonzo Gee or Caron Butler. You're comparing apples to oranges.
    Feel free to tell me who is the 15th best SF and who is the 15th best SG
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

    -------------

    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

  36. #150
    Droppin' knowledge, yo. Mackey_Rose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    The Dragon's Lair
    Posts
    4,124

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Best Young All-Star: PG or Kyrie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Feel free to tell me who is the 15th best SF and who is the 15th best SG
    Why did you make the jump from just "wing," to now the two wing positions are separated? Which one is Paul George?

Similar Threads

  1. Kyrie Irving fractured hand
    By pacers74 in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 07-16-2012, 07:14 PM
  2. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 06-14-2012, 01:31 AM
  3. Kyrie Irving Video spoof
    By joew8302 in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 06-10-2012, 04:38 PM
  4. Sources: Cavs plan to pick Kyrie Irving
    By 90'sNBARocked in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 06-20-2011, 09:28 PM
  5. Replies: 17
    Last Post: 12-13-2005, 05:16 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •