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Thread: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

  1. #101

    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    I don't think anyone would argue that Kobe is better than or equal to MJ.

    But I wouldn't argue that any player was. What I am arguing though, is that you are over rating 20 or so players you are ranking above him.

  2. #102
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    I don't think anyone would argue that Kobe is better than or equal to MJ.

    But I wouldn't argue that any player was. What I am arguing though, is that you are over rating 20 or so players you are ranking above him.
    Ok fine. Maybe I am. I think if you were to take the time and remember how great each of those players were you'd understand why I'm saying that. Or more importantly, when I say Kobe Bryant is one of the 25 greatest to ever play the game, that is not a knock in any way. That is high praise. That is an exceptional compliment.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    No it's stupid to individually value one player over another because he had the good fortune to play on a great team.
    Okay, so it's stupid to individually value one player over the other based on rings, but it's not stupid to individually value one position over another based on rings?


    I would imagine you think "good fortune to play on a great team" comes into the debate, but doesn't LeBron fit that exact same category? That's the whole reason why he chose Miami, to play along side two other All-Stars, and why they bring in HOF talent like Ray Allen to help round it out.

    You have to be on a great team to win a championship. That's also why LeBron also left Cleveland, because he was out there by himself. He wanted that great team around him.

    Any player that gets any ring has that "good fortune to play on a great team" knock on them.
    Last edited by Since86; 02-20-2013 at 09:44 AM.

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  5. #104
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Side note: As far as individual playoff performances go, I think that Nowitzki's 2011 playoff run is the most impressive individual performance since Shaq in 00-02. Nowitzki outplayed Kobe, Durant, Westbrook, Wade, and Lebron.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    He said they don't define who a player is. That's why we don't refer to Sam Jones as the greatest guard ever.
    Haven't read the entire thread or article, so some of this may have already been covered and I apologize if it has been, but Sam Jones' election to the Hall of Fame was an absolute joke.

    I also don't think Russell was the better basketball player than Wilt just because the loaded Celtics won more rings than Wilt's one-man teams did. But it is clearly evident that the Celtics were such a dominant team that (IMO, which most of you won't agree with) the best player ever could only muster a couple of championships, and one of them (two? - didn't look it up to confirm) came via the even-more-stacked early 1970's era Lakers teams.

    Winning rings is a team accomplishment, and as a fan of a basketball team I think its pretty important for my team to chase the rings. That's more important to me than having an MVP candidate on the roster.

    But "number of rings" is a ****-poor measure of any individual player's worth or accomplishments.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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  8. #106
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Dammit it is so ****ing frustrating talking to someone who would rather pick a part my argument rather than understand it.

    Im losing my patience because in all of my posts ive gone out of my way to Explain myself. If your goal is simply to prove me wrong, fine, A I am wrong. Everything ive said is stupid. I dont really give a ****.

    But if you want to understand I will tey to repeat it once more.

    I am not knocking anyone, especially not Kobe for winning rings. Im not sayong LBJ doesnt need help. Everyone does.

    Im saying couning rings is stupid. Talk about consistency? Well if you want to evaluate a player by number of rings YOU HAVE TO SAY SAM JONES IS BETTER THAN KOBE. I dont know how to make it more clear why ring counting is stupid.

    As far as evaluating positions, yes I believe acquiring a dynamic scorer is a necessary component of a championship team. Acquiring a scoring wing like Kobe is probably more necessary than acquiring a great point guard like Chris Paul. You still need a shitload of talent but once you have that scorer? I hink it is easier to fill out the rest of the roster. This how I think the best way of going about building a contender. That doesn't suddenly mean im contradicting myself.

    Now hopefully I can move onto something else. This **** is frustrating as ****.
    Find me on the internets @mattiecolin

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  9. #107
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Ive been told im stupid my whole life so if you want to just tell me that, do it. Doesnt bother me. Id like to move onto discussing the Pacers now.

    Thank you.

    Find me on the internets @mattiecolin

    Read it and weep:

    When George Hill is above 15% usage we won 73.5% of games. Below 15% usage we won 61.9%

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    But "number of rings" is a ****-poor measure of any individual player's worth or accomplishments.
    It's not the be-all and end-all measurement of greatness, but it matters a lot. Rings in basketball are especially important when judging individual greatness. In baseball, you can only bat 4-5 times a game. In football, you can only play one end of the field. But in basketball, you can take as many shots as you want and make game altering plays on the defensive end. So it matters when a player rises to the occasion on both ends of the court by making plays that will their team to a championship. That's what the likes of Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, etc did, and that's why they are the cream of the crop.

    The Jazz were probably a more complete team than Chicago in 1998, particularly since Pippen had been banged up that year. But a 35 year old Jordan literally refused to lose. He made game altering plays on both ends of the court that literally won the Bulls the title in Game 6. I think something like that is pretty important when judging individual greatness. Jordan dominated the playoffs six times in two separate three-peats. The latter of those three peats was when he was in his mid 30's. What he did is more impressive than what anyone else has done.

    This is a lot different than using number of rings to judge individual greatness in baseball. Barry Bonds had zero rings, but he only had the opportunity to bat 4-5 times a game.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Dammit it is so ****ing frustrating talking to someone who would rather pick a part my argument rather than understand it.
    No reason to get so worked up. If you're going to put your opinion out there, especially on an internet message board, it's going to get challenged. It fosters discussion.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    The Jazz were probably a more complete team than Chicago in 1998, particularly since Pippen had been banged up that year. But a 35 year old Jordan literally refused to lose. He made game altering plays on both ends of the court that literally won the Bulls the title in Game 6. I think something like that is pretty important when judging individual greatness. Jordan dominated the playoffs six times in two separate three-peats. The latter of those three peats was when he was in his mid 30's. What he did is more impressive than what anyone else has done.

    If Rik Smits doesn't bring the ball down to his waist, and get suckered into a jumpball with that Jordan punk...

    Or if either Davis could locate Toni Kukoc on the court and challenge his jump shot...

    We win Game #7 and then we kick Utah's butt in the Finals.

    And that still doesn't take anything away from Karl Malone, John Stockton, Reggie Miller, Rik Smits, Mark Jackson, or Chris Mullin. Four HoF'ers, and two other guys that may get some minor HoF converation but don't necessarily belong in the HoF. (Of course, neither did Sam Jones.) All of them were oustanding basketball players but happened to spend their careers on the "wrong" - meaning, they didn't have the good fortune to find themselves on the team that ultimately won the championship.

    So what I'm saying is, if you think Jordan is better than Wilt, the arguement can't be "number of rings." Even for the "best player on the team." Because then you're arguing that Russell is better than Jordan and I'm telling you that Russell was not better than Wilt individually. They had great battles, and Russell rose to the occasion against Wilt. Russell was a great competitor. But the Celtics weren't winning titles because Russell was better than Wilt, they were winning titles because they had the best team.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  13. #111
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    No reason to get so worked up. If you're going to put your opinion out there, especially on an internet message board, it's going to get challenged. It fosters discussion.
    Yeah, but I get his point. I've felt the way I think he feels right now.

    Sometimes you just want to be understood versus have someone try to dissect you. The former is a discussion centering around a sharing of ideas, the latter is more of a contest.

  14. #112
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    Yeah, but I get his point. I've felt the way I think he feels right now.

    Sometimes you just want to be understood versus have someone try to dissect you. The former is a discussion centering around a sharing of ideas, the latter is more of a contest.
    On the other hand, sometimes disagreements really do center on shades of meaning, and it is perfectly valid to question seeming inconsistencies.

    But, yes, an Internet discussion without pedantic logic chopping is like a day without sunshine
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  15. #113

    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Dammit it is so ****ing frustrating talking to someone who would rather pick a part my argument rather than understand it.

    Im losing my patience because in all of my posts ive gone out of my way to Explain myself. If your goal is simply to prove me wrong, fine, A I am wrong. Everything ive said is stupid. I dont really give a ****.

    But if you want to understand I will tey to repeat it once more.

    I am not knocking anyone, especially not Kobe for winning rings. Im not sayong LBJ doesnt need help. Everyone does.

    Im saying couning rings is stupid. Talk about consistency? Well if you want to evaluate a player by number of rings YOU HAVE TO SAY SAM JONES IS BETTER THAN KOBE. I dont know how to make it more clear why ring counting is stupid.

    As far as evaluating positions, yes I believe acquiring a dynamic scorer is a necessary component of a championship team. Acquiring a scoring wing like Kobe is probably more necessary than acquiring a great point guard like Chris Paul. You still need a shitload of talent but once you have that scorer? I hink it is easier to fill out the rest of the roster. This how I think the best way of going about building a contender. That doesn't suddenly mean im contradicting myself.

    Now hopefully I can move onto something else. This **** is frustrating as ****.
    I think we all get what you are saying.

    We just disagree with it.

    Rings aren't the ONLY thing that matters when talking about a players career, but they are important. Michael Jordan is not in the conversation for best player ever if he doesn't win at least a couple of championships. But a player also has to be elite to make the conversation.

    At the end of the day, Bryant has been the centerpiece (or one of the centerpieces)...an elite player..on five championship teams. If watched games, where it's obvious..that if you replace Bryant with any other player, the team would have lost. Yes, Lebron for instance, didn't have a team built for the playoffs..but many many great players did, and many of them don't win it all. That says something about Kobe, IMO.

    I've just personally seen too many great players have such a huge influence on a championship team, to disregard that as a criteria for greatness.

    And as for your arguments about Kobe. I think there's just some disagreement about how good he actually is as a player. Championships are validation. In my opinion, and I think other posters, Bryant is a tremendously skilled individual, much more so than you are giving him credit for. And I think your arguments against him tend to be strawman arguments, probably because you don't like the way he plays.

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