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Thread: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

  1. #76
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    You never discredit someone based on titles, but you don't judge them on the titles either.

    Kobe should be seen for exactly who he was throughout his career: An exceptional scorer. An above average defender. And a poor crunch time performer. http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...in-crunch-time

    Kobe's selfish nature, or his desire to be Michael Jordan, (I think he wanted to be him more than beat him), definitely kept from being an even better player. He could have won more, and ended up considered truly one of the top 10 players in NBA history. (and that is by people who know what they're talking about). But he's not. Which is fine.

    He's probably one of the 25 greatest to ever play the game and he has had simply an exceptional career that he should be proud of, and his fans should be proud of.
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    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    It's important to note that when Kobe finally went back to the finals in '10, his team was stacked, and far more talented than any team LBJ has ever been on.

    Gasol: 1st or 2nd best center in the league. He killed.
    Odom: Stud, defensively, offensively and on the boards. Not sure his contributions will ever be properly appreciated because he's really had no real position.
    A season after scoring 17 a game, Artest was still playing great basketball, and one of the best defenders in the game.
    and Fisher was still playing good ball, a spot up shooter and solid defender.

    Off the bench, they had Bynum throwing up 12 and 10 per 36 with 2 1/2 blocks.

    Damn that was a good team. They had 3 guys in addition to Kobe playing at all-star levels as well as a world class defender. They were stacked. You can't just count Kobe's rings and say, "wow look what he did." It's ridiculous. There's a long list of guys that would have won championships in his place. A very long list.
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    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    If you're wondering where this comes from - Basketball nerds have always had the need to put Kobe in perspective. His fanboys are uncommonly dumb, and Kobe's particular bad antics during crunch time have rubbed every basketball nerd the wrong way. (so much that many of us basketball nerds even tend to underrate Kobe because we dont want to admit what a great player he is).

    Even before we had the numbers to prove that Kobe's teams always underformed in late games we knew they did because you couldn't mistake one Kobe horrible jacked up shot after another for good basketball. And it's as if Kobe KNEW his teams played bad in these times but it didn't matter to him - because he knew when he did make the shots, that is what everyone would remember.

    Finally, there is nothing more annoying than this fact: If you swapped Carmelo Anthony and Kobe Bryant the results would be the same. The only possible difference is 'Melo hasn't quite been the scorer Kobe has, but the Lakers probably would have won, one or two more championships. (not saying this is necessarily Kobe's fault either- but 'Melo gets along with people. Kobe being Kobe helped destroy a dynasty)

    But essentially, the results would be the same.

    Only 'Melo would be worshiped and Kobe would be villified. This is ridiculous. We should appreciate players for who they are. Not their fortunate circumstances.
    Last edited by mattie; 02-19-2013 at 04:08 AM.
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    I really don't like that argument.

    Kobe's teams were terrible..including Smush Parker, Walton, and Mihm in rotation minutes (all might have been starters..)

    Lebron had good players around him, and more importantly, players that were a perfect fit with him. He had big guys willing to defend and rebound and shooters that he could kick the ball out to when he drove to the basket.

    Those teams were actually built to be really successful in the regular season. The problem was in the playoffs, good defensive teams could stop it.

    No player wins a championship by himself. So yes, Kobe benefited from playing with Shaq. As Lebron benefited by playing with Wade, and MJ with Pippen, and Duncan with Parker and Ginobili etc. No one wins by himself. But when you are a hall of famer type of player, and you win 5, that's pretty special and imo, silly to discredit. Kobe also transitioned exceptionally well..and became..maybe an even better player when he was past his athletic prime. We'll see if Lebron can do that.

    It's not about discrediting Kobe's 5 rings, but it's about damping the overblown achievement that Kobe has 5 rings that makes him better than other superstars, especially James. There's no argument about needing more than just 1 great player to win a championship. In recent history that hasn't happened. In James' case, he almost did it but of course failed miserably to the Spurs who just own every advantage in every position except SF.

    In his first 3 championships plus the seasons after he was just 2nd tier to Shaq. He just couldn't overcome the shadow of Shaq even after he left for Miami. The only thing that gave shine to his career is when agreat big man came in to the Lakers in the name of Pau Gasol and accepted that he's just #2 in there. He just got into discussion of MVP afterwards when that happened. It's his selfishness as a player that did more harm than good in his career, and in the Lakers as a whole. And you can even see it now with the current Lakers.

    And the only time Lebron got great talent around him was when he was in Miami, so it's misleading to say he got great talent around him in Cleveland. Who was Gasol-level talent or even Manu-level talent who played with Lebron in Cleveland? The next best player he ever got there was Mo Williams, and that was even before they reached the finals. Kobe had Lamar Odom, who was basically a double-double guy ever since he got the title of the face of the Lakers franchise. The closest equivalent Lebron got was Carlos Boozer, who opt out of the Cavs before even the Cavs' rise to the playoffs.

    There's no doubt that Kobe is a great player, up there in the elites. And there's no question that Lebron needs to further prove himself to be considered the best player ever. It's still early, but Lebron is already a better player now than Kobe was ever been up to now. In Lebron's case, he still has more time to get into the GOAT discussion. Kobe will leave the NBA with pride with all his achievements as a player, but there's just no way he'll be in the GOAT discussion.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by SMosley21 View Post
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    Funny how hardly anyone has said a word about the quote in the thread title. People are so hung up on this argument that they're ignoring Lebron giving major props to Reggie.
    Yeah, it's really great when players like Lebron and Kobe (he said one time Reggie was the hardest player to guard) praise and recognize Reggie as an elite player. Reggie's shooting is just at an elite level that his scoring percentage is as good or better than many of the post players who play an inside game. And his ability to free himself up is so great that he practically tires his man down on every game.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by 15th parallel View Post
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    Yeah, it's really great when players like Lebron and Kobe (he said one time Reggie was the hardest player to guard) praise and recognize Reggie as an elite player. Reggie's shooting is just at an elite level that his scoring percentage is as good or better than many of the post players who play an inside game. And his ability to free himself up is so great that he practically tires his man down on every game.
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ct_career.html

    6. Reggie Miller* .6139

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    If you're wondering where this comes from - Basketball nerds have always had the need to put Kobe in perspective. His fanboys are uncommonly dumb, and Kobe's particular bad antics during crunch time have rubbed every basketball nerd the wrong way. (so much that many of us basketball nerds even tend to underrate Kobe because we dont want to admit what a great player he is).

    Even before we had the numbers to prove that Kobe's teams always underformed in late games we knew they did because you couldn't mistake one Kobe horrible jacked up shot after another for good basketball. And it's as if Kobe KNEW his teams played bad in these times but it didn't matter to him - because he knew when he did make the shots, that is what everyone would remember.

    Finally, there is nothing more annoying than this fact: If you swapped Carmelo Anthony and Kobe Bryant the results would be the same. The only possible difference is 'Melo hasn't quite been the scorer Kobe has, but the Lakers probably would have won, one or two more championships. (not saying this is necessarily Kobe's fault either- but 'Melo gets along with people. Kobe being Kobe helped destroy a dynasty)

    But essentially, the results would be the same.

    Only 'Melo would be worshiped and Kobe would be villified. This is ridiculous. We should appreciate players for who they are. Not their fortunate circumstances.

    .....yeah, I don't agree with that at all.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Reggie is one of the greatest players all time because he was able to produce in the clutch and he stayed with one franchise for his whole career. Lebron will always be criticized
    "We want Miami"

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    He's probably one of the 25 greatest to ever play the game and he has had simply an exceptional career that he should be proud of, and his fans should be proud of.
    I really don't like Kobe at all, but come on top 25. Where does that put Lebron, top 60?

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    I really don't like Kobe at all, but come on top 25. Where does that put Lebron, top 60?
    Yea, that's ridiculous. He's top 5 easy.

    I don't think he'll be appreciated until he retires.

    And yes, it is discrediting Kobe's 5 championships. It is an incredible achievement. People even like to try and discredit the other two because he had Pau. Every champion has great players on his team, otherwise, they don't win. To say that an elite player is easily replaceable by a semi-elite player, silly. Facts are facts, Kobe won 5 championships. Regardless of how many "it doesn't count because..." arguments there are, he has 5. Does Lebron not really have 1 because he played with Wade? Does MJ not have 6 because he played with Scottie and Rodman? Duncan not really have 3 because he played with Parker and Ginobili.

    Elite players not only need great players on their team, but they need them to fit their needs. Lebron needs shooters, rebounders..and one other player who doesn't depend on him to create a shot for them. Kobe needs a great big man and a point guard he respects (so he can be told to pass the f'ing ball, and Kobe might consider it.).

    Basketball fans don't like Kobe because he proves everyone wrong. His style of basketball isn't what typically wins games or what "old school" basketball fans think should win games. (Bryant "fanboys" tend to come off as less intelligent, because they tend to be teenage boys. Who tend to think that Allen Iverson style of play is how the game should be played.). It bothered me for while, until I had to admit that the guy was actually the best player I had ever seen (I didn't watch MJ)..simply because he plays his way, and he wins. It's like if we all watched JOB ball, hating how contrary it was to our opinions of what wins basketball games...and then he won 5 championships. At some point, you have to give a little respect. Bryant is the exception that proves the rule. But the simple fact that he's the exception makes him great.

    This idea that Kobe under performs in the clutch is ludicrous. Yes, I know what the statistics say. I also know, that the way Bryant is defended in clutch situations, is way different than the way any other player currently playing, even Lebron gets open threes, is defended. Should he not take the shot every time, like Lebron? Maybe, but if he didn't, he'd get criticized for it as well. (And every other star ever takes clutch shots..) His team under performs? Really? Once again, he's won a championship five times, and been to 7 (or is it 8?) finals. That isn't under performing.

    I could easily discredit a lot of Lebron's achievements as well. But I don't, because bottom line..getting to the finals for the first time was certainly a job well done. Winning a championship is a job well done. Anyone who say Lebron's game against Detroit, would have come away impressed. But then again, don't make them bigger than what they are either. Boobie Gibson sucks? He didn't when he played with Lebron (because he's a shooter..) and without him, they don't go to the finals..because he had (at least one) career game.

    I don't like the way Lebron plays, (in fact, I think he's just as selfish as Kobe, but in a completely different way..) but there's no denying the man is efficient, has talent, and is an athletic beast. He just has not had as good of a career as Kobe has had. And if both retired today, Kobe retires with the better career. And it's not close. (That said, it's not fair..lets wait to see how Lebron's career finishes) and yes, Kobe Bryant retries as having been the better basketball player, Lebron just isn't as skilled (yet).
    Last edited by Sookie; 02-19-2013 at 01:02 PM.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    It's important to note that when Kobe finally went back to the finals in '10, his team was stacked, and far more talented than any team LBJ has ever been on.

    Gasol: 1st or 2nd best center in the league. He killed.
    Odom: Stud, defensively, offensively and on the boards. Not sure his contributions will ever be properly appreciated because he's really had no real position.
    A season after scoring 17 a game, Artest was still playing great basketball, and one of the best defenders in the game.
    and Fisher was still playing good ball, a spot up shooter and solid defender.

    Off the bench, they had Bynum throwing up 12 and 10 per 36 with 2 1/2 blocks.

    Damn that was a good team. They had 3 guys in addition to Kobe playing at all-star levels as well as a world class defender. They were stacked. You can't just count Kobe's rings and say, "wow look what he did." It's ridiculous. There's a long list of guys that would have won championships in his place. A very long list.
    If playing like this in game 6 of the WCF's to propel your team into the Finals isn't clutch, then I don't know what is:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfYGBHi7ya0

    Kobe owned game 6 of that 2010 WCF against Phoenix. 37 points on 12-25 shooting.

    Kobe averaged 30 and 29 in the 09 and 10 playoffs while shooting 45% from the field, which is basically identical to what Jordan averaged in the post season during the second three-peat.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...bryanko01.html

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...jordami01.html

    You rattle off Gasol, Odom, and Bynum (who was often banged up), as if Kobe is the first champion to ever have solid talent around him. No one knocks Magic for getting lucky and being drafted onto a Laker team that had Kareem and would eventually add Worthy. No one knocks Bird for having two of the best front court mates ever in Parrish and McHale. Guys like Dennis Johnson weren't slouches either. 45 had Pippen and Rodman, who not only was a great rebounder, but also played great D and got under The Mailman's skin. Lebron had Wade and Bosh, which is more than Kobe had on his 2009 and 2010 teams. Yet people act like Kobe had better talent than all of the other greats who won rings. Sure he was fortunate to play with Shaq, but Shaq was also fortunate to play with Kobe. Kobe basically won the 2000 Finals in the OT of Game 4 when Shaq was fouled off on the bench. Kobe was a monster on those first three championship teams.

    You say "you could have switched Melo for Kobe and the Lakers would have won", but that's pure speculation. No way for you to prove it. What we do know is that Kobe has 5 rings and Melo has 0. In fact, Melo has only made it out of the first round one time in nine seasons. The one year he did make it out of the first round, he went to the WCF's and lost to none other than Kobe. Melo had Billups beside him (a former Finals MVP), not to mention guys like KMart, J.R. Smith, and Nene, none of whom were chopped liver.

    Kobe's rings matter a helluva lot. You can't just write them off because of your dislike for The Mamba. Kobe's back to back titles in 09 and 10 are more impressive than anything Lebron has done to date. If Lebron wins another one this year, then you can start to put him in Kobe's class. But until then, Mamba>King.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 02-19-2013 at 02:18 PM.

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  17. #87
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Kobe's peers are Pistol Pete, Dwyane Wade, and Hondo. I'll give you a hint, he is not better than these guys:

    MJ, Big O, Dr J, the Dream, Wilt, Duncan, Shaq, Kareem, Magic, LBJ, Russell, Chuck, Moses, Isaiah, Jerry West, George Gervin, and KD.

    And that's just a list of guys that are CLEARLY much better than him.
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Kobe's peers are Pistol Pete, Dwyane Wade, and Hondo. I'll give you a hint, he is not better than these guys:

    MJ, Big O, Dr J, the Dream, Wilt, Duncan, Shaq, Kareem, Magic, LBJ, Russell, Chuck, Moses, Isaiah, Jerry West, George Gervin, and KD.

    And that's just a list of guys that are CLEARLY much better than him.

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    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    Yea, that's ridiculous. He's top 5 easy.

    I don't think he'll be appreciated until he retires.

    And yes, it is discrediting Kobe's 5 championships. It is an incredible achievement. People even like to try and discredit the other two because he had Pau. Every champion has great players on his team, otherwise, they don't win. To say that an elite player is easily replaceable by a semi-elite player, silly. Facts are facts, Kobe won 5 championships. Regardless of how many "it doesn't count because..." arguments there are, he has 5. Does Lebron not really have 1 because he played with Wade? Does MJ not have 6 because he played with Scottie and Rodman? Duncan not really have 3 because he played with Parker and Ginobili.

    Elite players not only need great players on their team, but they need them to fit their needs. Lebron needs shooters, rebounders..and one other player who doesn't depend on him to create a shot for them. Kobe needs a great big man and a point guard he respects (so he can be told to pass the f'ing ball, and Kobe might consider it.).

    Basketball fans don't like Kobe because he proves everyone wrong. His style of basketball isn't what typically wins games or what "old school" basketball fans think should win games. (Bryant "fanboys" tend to come off as less intelligent, because they tend to be teenage boys. Who tend to think that Allen Iverson style of play is how the game should be played.). It bothered me for while, until I had to admit that the guy was actually the best player I had ever seen (I didn't watch MJ)..simply because he plays his way, and he wins. It's like if we all watched JOB ball, hating how contrary it was to our opinions of what wins basketball games...and then he won 5 championships. At some point, you have to give a little respect. Bryant is the exception that proves the rule. But the simple fact that he's the exception makes him great.

    This idea that Kobe under performs in the clutch is ludicrous. Yes, I know what the statistics say. I also know, that the way Bryant is defended in clutch situations, is way different than the way any other player currently playing, even Lebron gets open threes, is defended. Should he not take the shot every time, like Lebron? Maybe, but if he didn't, he'd get criticized for it as well. (And every other star ever takes clutch shots..) His team under performs? Really? Once again, he's won a championship five times, and been to 7 (or is it 8?) finals. That isn't under performing.

    I could easily discredit a lot of Lebron's achievements as well. But I don't, because bottom line..getting to the finals for the first time was certainly a job well done. Winning a championship is a job well done. Anyone who say Lebron's game against Detroit, would have come away impressed. But then again, don't make them bigger than what they are either. Boobie Gibson sucks? He didn't when he played with Lebron (because he's a shooter..) and without him, they don't go to the finals..because he had (at least one) career game.

    I don't like the way Lebron plays, (in fact, I think he's just as selfish as Kobe, but in a completely different way..) but there's no denying the man is efficient, has talent, and is an athletic beast. He just has not had as good of a career as Kobe has had. And if both retired today, Kobe retires with the better career. And it's not close. (That said, it's not fair..lets wait to see how Lebron's career finishes) and yes, Kobe Bryant retries as having been the better basketball player, Lebron just isn't as skilled (yet).
    I mean you want to see it that way so it doesn't matter what the numbers say...

    Facts are facts: Kobe didn't win 5 championships. I'm sorry. He was on 5 different teams that won championships. players don't win championships. Teams do. You'll learn that... someday. (unless you're a Kobe defender for the rest of your life, and then you'll never accept it)

    Kobe's hero ball: http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/76...-espn-magazine
    http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...in-crunch-time

    And "Kobe's defended different" is the dumbest thing I've ever heard lol. Every team wants to win, every team plays the same way, only the Lakers have underperformed consistently since they drafted Kobe. And for one reason. Kobe chucks up ****** shots and it's easy to shutdown.
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    The Lakers have under performed consistently since they drafted Kobe? Man I hope we under perform like that some day

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Mattie, you're kinda confusing me here. In this thread, you're arguing that Kobe's rings don't matter all that much. In the PaulG vs. Kyrie thread, you argue that wings are more important than pg's because they win more rings.

    I see you picking and chosing when rings are important in a discussion, and when they aren't.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Kobe's peers are Pistol Pete, Dwyane Wade, and Hondo. I'll give you a hint, he is not better than these guys:

    MJ, Big O, Dr J, the Dream, Wilt, Duncan, Shaq, Kareem, Magic, LBJ, Russell, Chuck, Moses, Isaiah, Jerry West, George Gervin, and KD.

    And that's just a list of guys that are CLEARLY much better than him.

    Pretty sure Kobe clearly had a greater career than all of the highlighted guys. And I'm glad that with all of your huffing and puffing, you failed to mention Larry Bird but somehow feel that Durant is "CLEARLY" better than Kobe.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by spreedom View Post
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    Pretty sure Kobe clearly had a greater career than all of the highlighted guys. And I'm glad that with all of your huffing and puffing, you failed to mention Larry Bird but somehow feel that Durant is "CLEARLY" better than Kobe.
    Jerry West was a GREAT defender who averaged 27 a game for his career and nearly 7 assists. I'm not sure how anyone could argue differently.. but meh.
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Mattie, you're kinda confusing me here. In this thread, you're arguing that Kobe's rings don't matter all that much. In the PaulG vs. Kyrie thread, you argue that wings are more important than pg's because they win more rings.

    I see you picking and chosing when rings are important in a discussion, and when they aren't.
    No it's stupid to individually value one player over another because he had the good fortune to play on a great team. It is.

    But yes, wings will always probably contribute to more championships.

    With that said, at the end of Chris Paul's career he will still be known as one of the greatest players ever. He proved it. I don't think he'll have any rings tho. It seems an extremely important component of a championship team is a dynamic scorer at the 2-5 positions. It's hard to get that player if you spent your cap money on a point.

    Edit - Also like to point out, I am in no way saying Kobe didn't contribute to these championships. Of course he did. Especially in his last two championships, Kobe brought a needed element that almost every championship team needs, the guy that can throw up 30 a game and score when the defense tightens.

    And sure, some guys roles on championship teams could not be replicated. LBJ, MJ. Those are examples of players that probably couldn't be replicated by anyone else. But many championship winners could have their production replicated by other guys, so when we want to call them a winner because they got the championship and someone else didn't it is not accurate.

    When I say, 'melo can do what Kobe did in LA, it's not because Im saying "haha Kobe sucks" I'm accurately portraying what Kobe does. He's a great scorer. Like 'Melo. That's who his peer is (at the end of melos career he will be) though I think we can all probably agree Kobe is a better scorer, 'Melo is right behind him.

    I'm not arguing that Kobe sucks. Focus here. I'm arguing that the selfish guy that averaged 25 a game for his career, is not as good as guys like West who averaged 27 a game.

    I'm arguing that Kobe's needed offensive punch, could essentially be replicated by someone like Carmelo, so if you love Kobe and hate 'melo you're a hypocrite.

    Edit 2 - This reminds me of KG's early days. I used to be a HUGE fan. I hated that everyone said Duncan was a winner and KG wasn't. KG was playing outstanding, spectacular ball. Yet people said, "he's can't win." The truth? His team sucked. He needed teammates. Like every champion. Like Bird. Like MJ. Like Kobe.

    So you look at their production. Look at Kobe's production for ****s sake. It's not as good as you think it is...

    Moving on...
    Last edited by mattie; 02-19-2013 at 06:55 PM.
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  27. #95
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    The Lakers have under performed consistently since they drafted Kobe? Man I hope we under perform like that some day
    Maybe it wasn't clear, but from the links posted it should have been. Anyways, the Lakers have underpormed late in close games since they acquired Kobe. This is indisputable.

    That's just the facts.
    Last edited by mattie; 02-19-2013 at 06:57 PM.
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    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Every one of you that is arguing Kobe is better than I'm saying.. Maybe you're arguing he is top 10??? You're arguing that he's better than guys who've scored more than him, were better passers, better defenders, better rebounders and had a more profound effect on the game. THE ONLY way you can say Kobe is better is because of his rings. You see why it is ridiculous to count rings??

    Now, if you want to count rings, go ahead but I want you to come out and say that Sam Jones is superior to Kobe. Say that to avoid the hypocrisy..
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    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Lastly, let me explain this- Usually when you say something unpopular, there is the pile on effect, everyone attempting to poke fun to deligitimize my position.

    I never said points can't win championships.
    I never said Kobe sucks.
    I never said he made the Lakers performed. (or didn't intend to, I meant to say they underperformed in the "clutch"- THEY DO)
    I never said Kobe isn't a GREAT player

    Now I am suggesting Kobe is underrated, or maybe more importantly basketball fans are forgetting the greatness of other players by overvaluing the number of rings a player has acquired.
    I am suggesting that some positions are probably more important Example: QB and MLB in Football. QB is probably more important. That doesn't mean Dick Butkus isn't a legend! Who'd you rather have Sweetness or Peyton Manning? If you're smart you'd take Peyton despite both being extremely great.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    Pippen guarding LeBron, I'd kill to watch that, 90's rules of course. That would have been incredible to watch.
    Pippen would definitely take LeBron out of his game. But the worm might even be better. In any event, we talk about Paul being a great defender. Pippen and Rodman were just as good and more physical.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Every one of you that is arguing Kobe is better than I'm saying.. Maybe you're arguing he is top 10??? You're arguing that he's better than guys who've scored more than him, were better passers, better defenders, better rebounders and had a more profound effect on the game. THE ONLY way you can say Kobe is better is because of his rings. You see why it is ridiculous to count rings??

    Now, if you want to count rings, go ahead but I want you to come out and say that Sam Jones is superior to Kobe. Say that to avoid the hypocrisy..
    That's just inaccurate. I don't think you realize how skilled Bryant actually is. Or you just refuse to acknowledge it because you don't like how he plays.

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    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    That's just inaccurate. I don't think you realize how skilled Bryant actually is. Or you just refuse to acknowledge it because you don't like how he plays.
    No I said he's one of the 25 best that ever played the game. That is an exceptional feet. But all the guys I mentioned were better defenders, equal scorers, and better passers.

    The only one who didn't have as well rounded a game was probably the Iceman, who was a better scorer anyways. If you wanted to say Kobe was better than the Iceman I'd have no problem with that.

    I'm not underrating Kobe. I'm saying he's great.

    You guys are the ones that are trying to say he's better than Jerry West for instance. That's wrong. I'm sorry. It's just wrong.

    You guys are the ones that are trying to say he's in the same league as MJ. That's absurd. It's just not true. And I'm done anyways. I just had to defend myself from people who were trying to pick apart my argument, ignoring the message by pointing a particular poor worded sentence.
    Last edited by mattie; 02-19-2013 at 07:33 PM.
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