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Thread: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Lebron is one of the realest dudes in the NBA. If you ask him a question, he will answer it. So much better than the LeBron who cared what others thought about him.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by immortality View Post
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    Wouldn't call Marc Gasol a scrub, at this point in their careers, Marc seems to be the more dominant player.
    Okay, not really meant to call Marc Gasol a scrub (it was for Kwame btw), but let me rephrase that to a scrub and an unproven player.

    And Marc is a better big man right now against Pau no doubt, but Pau was a better player at the same time in the league as Marc right now. So I'll still call it a lopsided trade for the Lakers.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by immortality View Post
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    Wouldn't call Marc Gasol a scrub, at this point in their careers, Marc seems to be the more dominant player.
    He was a scrub during the trade. If I remember correctly, when they traded him he was simply a 2nd round pick that had never played in the NBA.
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    The best thing is that sports are performed in a bubble where each player is totally isolated from each other. No team ever won anything due to who they played, or matchups, or teammates, or travel, or injury, or coaching. Pretty much if you are better than another player of "equal" talent then you'll always beat them. That's how it works. This is why Vegas went out of the Sports Book business.

    Also there is this great "switch on" moment where s****y players like Lebron instantly get a lot better just as the final minute of a title series clinching game tick off. You can see it, like a bolt of lightening where they instantly become a lot better. Prior to that they were dogs***, but then the hand of God reaches down, changes their actual physical structure, and denotes this by placing a ring on their finger. Magic.



    See, no player ever made a teammate better. No defender ever hurt or helped an opponent. No scheme ever had any impact on a game. It's just not that complex. Sports is probably the most black and white, obvious, merit based system ever invented.






    Having said that (sarcastically), Lebron is still an overprivileged, flopping douche. I don't fault him on rings, I fault him on on-court attitude and behavior in some prior tough moments (like giving up).

  5. #30

    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Before I use to have a strong opinion on who the greatest ever is but as time goes on I just think its impossible to say. Yet so many people believe MJ is the greatest ever and I think that is unfair to Bird, Kareem. Magic, Wilt, Russel, and even guys like Oscar Robertson, Elgin Baylor, and Jerry West. Almost all the people who say MJ is the greatest ever can't even remember watching guys before MJ play if they were even born then. I have always found it crazy when people just forget about all of these great players who came before MJ.

    I think MJ has brought up a good point in saying the competition was tougher in his era. Less teams = better teams and you have to remember it use to be that you could be a physical defender, not so much the case anymore. However I think that Lebron makes valid points about MJ. I don't know if there was any coach besides Phil who could have got through to MJ in order to win and Scott Pippen was the PERFECT star to pair with MJ.

    When it comes to Lebron vs Kobe its really hard to say. One thing about Lebron is there has NEVER been a player like him before. He is a once in a lifetime type of talent. He has his faults and all but even I can appreciate what he brings to basketball.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    The single factor IMO that puts Jordan above all of the other wings (I refuse to compare him to centers of long ago era's because it is impossible to do) of the current age is that Michael had to suffer through legal hand checking on the perimeter. That practice is and has been illegal for years now in the NBA. I'm not saying that Bryant or James or Durrant couldn't overcome this obstacle but the simple matter of the fact is they haven't had to.

    Hand checking may not sound like much but let me assure you certain players (Derek Harper comes to mind right away) could knock you off of your dribble and change your path to the basket.

    Great players are great players & I'm not trying to take any of them down but I'm just saying that Michael did all of his damage (even as much as I hated it) with defenses allowed to be far more physical than they are today.


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    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    Damn you really don't like MJ do you? I get the whole Pacers/Bulls rivalry, but LeBron has a ton of work to do to even think about being at MJ's level let alone surpassing it. Even this streak that LBJ is on now, its nothing compared to what MJ did back in 89' with the ten triple doubles in eleven games.

    I think people forget about how good Jordan actually was. Dude averaged 30ppg for his career even with his last two seasons on the Wizards. He left two rings on the table when he went to play baseball as well.

    I think LeBron is a ridiculously good basketball player. And will go down as one of the best ever. But damn man, he's no MJ. No one is.
    No, I have no problem with MJ at all!

    I just don't believe in the, "there will be no one better than - insert great player- " LBJ is already a superior athlete and superior to many aspects to MJ's game. After his career is over, and LBJ has surpassed all his numbers I know many may consider him better. Maybe even myself. I'm not saying it is true. But it will be a very interesting discussion that any basketball fan should take seriously.

    We are watching true greatness in LBJ. I've just learned to accept that is all.
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    HAHA beautiful.

    James just killed MJ. Everything he said is true. And I'll say the same thing I told my cousin last night when he repeated MJ's comments. Of course MJ would say Kobe is better. Because at the end of the day, no rational person could EVER say Kobe is the player MJ was. It's a stupid debate. MJ is flat out better than Kobe in every possible aspect of the game.

    The problem with admitting LBJ's greatness? LBJ is quicker, stronger, more athletic, a better defender, a better passer than MJ ever was. At the end of his career we'll probably all say LBJ was the greatest to play the game.

    MJ is imtimidated by LBJ. And he should be. LBJ already has a ring at a younger age than MJ, so he could possibly end up with as many rings as well. (which would just be nuts if he was able to pull that off as well)

    About the only thing I could agree with you on this is that Lebron is stronger.
    He's not nearly the scorer, shooter, or defender that MJ was and he's not nearly as quick.
    I do agree with Lebron that titles alone don't make a player great but he isn't on the level of Jordan. He'll end up playing a lot longer then Jordan and still won't be considered as great.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by shags View Post
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    Here's the point. It's not ridiculous to say, right now, that Kobe's had a better career than LeBron. I agree with MJ on that, and that's how I took it when I saw the clip. I also don't have a problem with LeBron's response either.
    I think this is where the contention is coming from. It is certainly fair to say that Kobe has had a better career than LeBron, but it is borderline crazy to say Kobe is a better player than LeBron. Knowing what you know now, if an 18 year old LeBron and an 18 year old Kobe both entered the draft, I would question the sanity of anyone that would even consider drafting Kobe over LeBron.
    Last edited by Wage; 02-16-2013 at 04:03 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    No, I have no problem with MJ at all!

    I just don't believe in the, "there will be no one better than - insert great player- " LBJ is already a superior athlete and superior to many aspects to MJ's game. After his career is over, and LBJ has surpassed all his numbers I know many may consider him better. Maybe even myself. I'm not saying it is true. But it will be a very interesting discussion that any basketball fan should take seriously.

    We are watching true greatness in LBJ. I've just learned to accept that is all.
    I've been a fan of LeBron since he entered the league because there is no one else like him in the NBA. The man is a true freak of nature. I love watching him play any team not name the Pacers because he is a joy to watch. And honestly a lot of that comes down to his freakish athleticism. Seeing a man his size to those things at those speeds is special.

    But when we talk about raw skill, MJ has LBJ beat. The only thing LBJ really has over Michael is the athleticism, but not even by that much because Michael was a phenomenal athlete himself. And Michael had the mental game down better than anyone. And that has been a huge struggle for LeBron. Michael was just such a pure basketball player in every facet of the game. Its why at age 49 he still beat Michael Kidd-Gilchrist in 1 on 1.
    http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/ey...him-one-on-one

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    The single factor IMO that puts Jordan above all of the other wings (I refuse to compare him to centers of long ago era's because it is impossible to do) of the current age is that Michael had to suffer through legal hand checking on the perimeter. That practice is and has been illegal for years now in the NBA. I'm not saying that Bryant or James or Durrant couldn't overcome this obstacle but the simple matter of the fact is they haven't had to.

    Hand checking may not sound like much but let me assure you certain players (Derek Harper comes to mind right away) could knock you off of your dribble and change your path to the basket.

    Great players are great players & I'm not trying to take any of them down but I'm just saying that Michael did all of his damage (even as much as I hated it) with defenses allowed to be far more physical than they are today.
    This is true, though zones weren't really played as much back then were they? A zone performed well can stymie a star player as we saw when Dallas won their championship a few years back.

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    I've been a fan of LeBron since he entered the league because there is no one else like him in the NBA. The man is a true freak of nature. I love watching him play any team not name the Pacers because he is a joy to watch. And honestly a lot of that comes down to his freakish athleticism. Seeing a man his size to those things at those speeds is special.

    But when we talk about raw skill, MJ has LBJ beat. The only thing LBJ really has over Michael is the athleticism, but not even by that Michael was mentally stronger, but i'm not so sure about raw skill. I've watched both, LeBron is the better and more willing passer, and a better rebounder due to his size. LeBron doesn't even use his athleticism to score half the time anymore, though he could every time he goes down the court.
    much because Michael was a phenomenal athlete himself. And Michael had the mental game down better than anyone. And that has been a huge struggle for LeBron. Michael was just such a pure basketball player in every facet of the game. Its why at age 49 he still beat Michael Kidd-Gilchrist in 1 on 1.
    http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/ey...him-one-on-one
    Not sure I buy the skill argument, LeBron is a better and more willing passer, he sees plays develop in a way Michael didn't.
    Last edited by daschysta; 02-16-2013 at 04:06 PM.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    No, I have no problem with MJ at all!

    I just don't believe in the, "there will be no one better than - insert great player- " LBJ is already a superior athlete and superior to many aspects to MJ's game. After his career is over, and LBJ has surpassed all his numbers I know many may consider him better. Maybe even myself. I'm not saying it is true. But it will be a very interesting discussion that any basketball fan should take seriously.

    We are watching true greatness in LBJ. I've just learned to accept that is all.
    That's fine, but he hasn't done it yet. And that's all MJ was saying, really. You got very excited about comments that weren't dismissive of Lebron at all.

    Also, a previous poster mentioned the hand checking rules. That is a big deal. But also, Lebron's points and percentages come largely from the paint/foul line, as a result of the referees NOT calling his signature shove (the one Jordan made famous vs the Cavs...Lebron does it on every single drive) and as a result of defenders being afraid of being called for a foul if he A.) flops or B.) gets breathed on. Every superstar gets superstar calls, but Lebron still flops as much as anyone in the NBA, and gets away with it.

    Also, Lebron's defensive intensity hasn't been there this year. He gets the chase down blocks every so often, but he's still not in Jordan's league as far as man-to-man. Is he good? Yes. Is he more versatile than Jordan, owing largely to his size? Yes. Is it probably because he's spending so much energy on offense? Yes.

    Nobody is saying Lebron sucks, but to act like he's already better than Jordan, please. No point until there's some sort of statistical evidence, which would be years from now.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    LeBron is the first player to approach the level of greatness that is Jordan. I've seen a ton of Bird and Magic, and while they were very entertaining and great players...players with far more personality than Jordan & James, those guys are a notch below. I do think Wilt is in that region. But LeBron is in that region of greatness as well. Kobe, I think falls a hair short of that.

    I say all of this even though I can't stand LeBron. Note that he said in the article above that he inspires himself. Wow!

    Anyway, I will not deny the truth. He is right there with the very best who ever played the game.

    We can stress LeBron's physical strength as an advantage to him. We can stress Jordan's creativity and craftiness. But the reason I think Jordan is better is that he had supreme confidence and an insane level of competitiveness. You never ever saw fear in the eyes of Michael Jordan. You do see it in LeBron's eyes on occasion...and I think this is a big reason why "de Bulls" would beat the tar out of the Miami Heat.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdStrike View Post
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    That's fine, but he hasn't done it yet. And that's all MJ was saying, really.

    No. MJ said Kobe was better than LBJ. I noted how ridiculous that statement is as well as laughing at MJ's motives for saying so. I think it is funny, because there is no way MJ actually believes Kobe is a better player than LBJ. That or he just doesn't watch basketball anymore.
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    You guys really ought to watch the video of Jordan's quotes about this. It comes across a lot differently in print than it did on camera. He almost didn't want to pick one over the other.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Peck is right. Glad to see some old timers post considering they witnessed it. The fouls were much harder and the hand checking made it harder to score. It was just about football on hardwood against the Knicks and Pistons. I cannot imagine how good MJ would be in today's league of touch fouls. It's really made for him.

    As an aside, Derrick Rose wouldn't last one season back in the day. That zip and spin crap would have him in traction in no time.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    I'm not convinced that Lebron would have survived the 90s mentally. If he's complaining about Lance talking trash, Michael, Larry, Gary Payton, and Reggie in their primes would have torn him APART.
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    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    It's probably just as bad to be nostalgic about the greatness of the NBA before as it is to preach about the superior athletes of today.
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    It's probably just as bad to be nostalgic about the greatness of the NBA before as it is to preach about the superior athletes of today.
    Don't confuse nostalgia for experience and knowledge. I watched Bird and Magic play live many, many times. Neither are as good as LeBron James. Still, I would not rank LeBron over Michael.

    The reality is, my opinion is more educated because I actually witnessed all of these players...and lived through the seasons.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    I like people saying that LeBron couldn't have handled the physicality of the 80s and 90s... he's 6'8" and 260 pounds. Get a clue.

    And saying that he isn't mentally tough or couldn't handle trash talk is unmeasurable, lacking in substance, and ignoring the fact that basically every player in the history of the NBA got rattled by on-court happenings. I hate LeBron's personality off the court, but I appreciate his ability and I believe he'll be the greatest single player ever when he retires.

    And the level he's playing at right now is totally unmatched. Jordan had a much better career than LeBron has so far, but at no time did Jordan dominate all aspects of the game like LBJ.

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  30. #46
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Funny how mature, poised, and respectful LeWhine is in front of the press when he's talking to MJ and Kobe. Everyone seems to have forgotten what a complete d-bag he was about Dirk when the poor Heat wer being denied, heaven forbid, in their first attempt at a ring w the big 3 d-bags. And don't say it was all about Wade.

    This is why I'll take a Dirk, Reggie, PG type. Not perfect but so much better on the egotistical front. Jordan, Kobe, LeWhine can have their GOAT debates and stroke their already overinflated egos. Those guys don't even respect guys from older eras in these discussions enough.
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    It really hard to gauge who was better who was not. Many circumstances not in their control like trades, injuries, teammates...type of officiating...

    After they retire try to be a coach or an executive and lets see how their minds work. Jordan sucks, Magic too impatient.

    But Bird.....everywhere he goes he wins.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Read the first paragraph and the fantastic quote by Shane Battier on LeBron James.

    http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...-vs-simmons-iv

    Jordan, Magic, and Bird. None of them had to play during the information age and live through the 24/7/365 scrutiny LeBron does. Who knows how that would have affected them, especially Jordan. Deadspin, TMZ, etc. would have had a field day with him.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    I hate Lebron. But he is the most talented player ever to live. Better court vision than MJ by far. Gets his teammates involved. MJ was much more competitive though. Defense is equal as they bring different things to the table defensively. Lebrons better at rebounding obviously. I take lebron and hope I can get him to have Jordan's mentality. Yes I saw them both play. Lebrons unreal

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    I don't think I've read a comment from anyone old enough to really remember Jordon in his prime think Lebron stands a chance to surpass him. Lebron is the best player in the game right now, but I still don't think he's better then Kobe in his prime and well below Jordon. For the record I never liked Jordon but he was the greatest that I've ever seen play the game. And btw today's game does not contain overall better athletes and that's a shame. Centers and power forwards are overall smaller and not as physical and the sg position has taken a step down talent wise. I will say that there are more high quality point guards and small forwards in the league today overall. There is some great talent in the league right now and Lebron is playing at an elite level however I think the competition Jordon faced was at a time when nba talent levels were at their greatest. Put Jordon in today's nba with today's defensive rules and he'd at least average in the 40's scoring. Lebron should play a lot more games then Jordon when all is said and done so I expect him to surpass his scoring total but I doubt if he wins as many titles and he won't be considered the greatest ever.

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