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Thread: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Maybe we are overrating michael jordan too much.

    I remember in the 80s and 90s jordan was guarded by players shorter than him or players less physically gifted than him. 1980s never won. Fast forward 90s against the lakers i forgot who guarded him. Against the knicks john starks? Seattle gary payton? Utah against byron russell, howard eisley, shannon anderson....even jeff hornacek.

    The only player who played great defense against jordan was derrick mckey. I remember the 98 series and wow i thought we won that.

    So if jordan plays today we will never know if he can score 40 points with the emergence of more physically gifted, quicker and taller players.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by shags View Post
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    Read the first paragraph and the fantastic quote by Shane Battier on LeBron James.

    http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...-vs-simmons-iv

    Jordan, Magic, and Bird. None of them had to play during the information age and live through the 24/7/365 scrutiny LeBron does. Who knows how that would have affected them, especially Jordan. Deadspin, TMZ, etc. would have had a field day with him.
    LeBron brought scrutiny on himself by staging "the Decision" on national TV. Prior to that, he was viewed FAR more positively.

    Also, Jordan had his share of scrutiny. 24/7/365 news and ESPN existed before he laced them up in Chicago. Perhaps Battier needs to read "The Jordan Rules" which was published in 1991. Talk about scrutiny.

    Just because twitter didn't exist at the time does not mean there wasn't a high degree of scrutiny. Some of you probably think Wilt Chamberlain came to the arena in a horse and buggy. BTW, Wilt would completely dominate this league right now and he'd be better than LeBron. He's like a 7'1" LeBron James folks. Talk about an athlete.

    Edit: Wilt was like a bigger version of Dwight Howard with LeBron's skill level. Maybe a better description is that Wilt is the center version LeBron James. He led the league in assists...when he decided to do it.
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 02-17-2013 at 10:08 AM.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    I don't think I've read a comment from anyone old enough to really remember Jordon in his prime think Lebron stands a chance to surpass him. Lebron is the best player in the game right now, but I still don't think he's better then Kobe in his prime and well below Jordon. For the record I never liked Jordon but he was the greatest that I've ever seen play the game. And btw today's game does not contain overall better athletes and that's a shame. Centers and power forwards are overall smaller and not as physical and the sg position has taken a step down talent wise. I will say that there are more high quality point guards and small forwards in the league today overall. There is some great talent in the league right now and Lebron is playing at an elite level however I think the competition Jordon faced was at a time when nba talent levels were at their greatest. Put Jordon in today's nba with today's defensive rules and he'd at least average in the 40's scoring. Lebron should play a lot more games then Jordon when all is said and done so I expect him to surpass his scoring total but I doubt if he wins as many titles and he won't be considered the greatest ever.

    No offense, but you're going to make a sweeping generalization like that, at least spell Jordan's name correctly.
    Last edited by spreedom; 02-17-2013 at 10:44 AM.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by spreedom View Post
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    No offense, but you're going to make a sweeping generalization like that, at least spell Jordan's name correctly.
    Oh my god a typo. Sorry it doesn't take away from the fact. You can't appreciate how good a player is at 10 years old like you can as an adult.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    Oh my god a typo. Sorry it doesn't take away from the fact. You can't appreciate how good a player is at 10 years old like you can as an adult.
    Fact? What fact? Your post is filled with a bunch of opinions that aren't supported by a single fact. If anything, the fact that I was a kid when he was in his prime would suggest that I'd overrate him, considering he was basically a superhero to me growing up.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    I'm not coming here to say MJ is overrated, but people are so nostalgic about his era they don't even realize their biases.

    People glamorize MJ and Dominique Wilkins dunk contest and wish today's dunk contests could be like, but they ignore the fact that MJ and Dominique did some pretty damn basic dunks. If a player tried those today he wouldn't even last til the 2nd round lol

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by Pace Maker View Post
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    I'm not coming here to say MJ is overrated, but people are so nostalgic about his era they don't even realize their biases.

    People glamorize MJ and Dominique Wilkins dunk contest and wish today's dunk contests could be like, but they ignore the fact that MJ and Dominique did some pretty damn basic dunks. If a player tried those today he wouldn't even last til the 2nd round lol
    I think the dunks are better in recent years, but that's because the league has become more and more like a track meet where high jumpers like Gerald Green and James White are paid big bucks purely due to their athleticism. They have little to bring to the table in a real game even though they can jump out of the gym.

    In any event, better dunking clearly doesn't translate to better basketball.

    Edit: I bet some people think Wilt "the stilt" was good because he was tall. Well, that's probably because they never saw him play. Again, don't confuse nostalgia for knowledge and experience.
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 02-17-2013 at 01:33 PM.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    I don't think I've read a comment from anyone old enough to really remember Jordon in his prime think Lebron stands a chance to surpass him. Lebron is the best player in the game right now, but I still don't think he's better then Kobe in his prime and well below Jordon. For the record I never liked Jordon but he was the greatest that I've ever seen play the game. And btw today's game does not contain overall better athletes and that's a shame. Centers and power forwards are overall smaller and not as physical and the sg position has taken a step down talent wise. I will say that there are more high quality point guards and small forwards in the league today overall. There is some great talent in the league right now and Lebron is playing at an elite level however I think the competition Jordon faced was at a time when nba talent levels were at their greatest. Put Jordon in today's nba with today's defensive rules and he'd at least average in the 40's scoring. Lebron should play a lot more games then Jordon when all is said and done so I expect him to surpass his scoring total but I doubt if he wins as many titles and he won't be considered the greatest ever.
    I'm 30 and remember Jordan well...

    Jordan was the better scorer and probably defender (by a slight edge)... But he could not pass and rebound like LeBron... Mentally Jordan was the master... Physically LeBron is...

    We have yet to see how LeBron's game will translate with age... How Jordan transitioned his game was beautiful...

    That will be the most key component and we'll just have to wait and see...

    When judging a players greatness I can't use titles as a factor... Titles are won by teams... Sure the goats are 9/10ths of what it takes to win one... But that other 1/10th is out of their control...
    Nothing in life worth having comes easy.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I think the dunks are better in recent years, but that's because the league has become more and more like a track meet where high jumpers like Gerald Green and James White are paid big bucks purely due to their athleticism. They have little to bring to the table in a real game even though they can jump out of the gym.
    Big bucks? Green has gotten one guaranteed contract after his rookie deal. White has been in and out of the league, and this season, with him playing less than 7 MPG, has been by far the biggest role he's ever played on a team. They're both very low-end role players, but they probably would have been fringe guys in the 80s as well.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Put LBJ in Kobe's shoes and he wins maybe 10, maybe 15 rings.
    Dude, I so agree! LBJ would have been a WAY better team mate to shaq!

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by shags View Post
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    Read the first paragraph and the fantastic quote by Shane Battier on LeBron James.

    http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...-vs-simmons-iv

    Jordan, Magic, and Bird. None of them had to play during the information age and live through the 24/7/365 scrutiny LeBron does. Who knows how that would have affected them, especially Jordan. Deadspin, TMZ, etc. would have had a field day with him.
    Holy hell did Simmons oversell that quote

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    HAHA beautiful.

    James just killed MJ. Everything he said is true. And I'll say the same thing I told my cousin last night when he repeated MJ's comments. Of course MJ would say Kobe is better. Because at the end of the day, no rational person could EVER say Kobe is the player MJ was. It's a stupid debate. MJ is flat out better than Kobe in every possible aspect of the game.

    The problem with admitting LBJ's greatness? LBJ is quicker, stronger, more athletic, a better defender, a better passer than MJ ever was. At the end of his career we'll probably all say LBJ was the greatest to play the game.

    MJ is imtimidated by LBJ. And he should be. LBJ already has a ring at a younger age than MJ, so he could possibly end up with as many rings as well. (which would just be nuts if he was able to pull that off as well)
    All of the above is just total comedy... King James... totally QUIT on his team in Cleveland ..... multiple times. QUIT. Too much pressure for the great one.

    So... he runs of to a stacked team ... and wins one. Finally.

    Bron Bron is just not a mentally tough guy and that is what will separate him and MJ/Kobe the rest of their careers. Bron ran from the challenge... Jordan and Kobe EMBRACED it.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by shags View Post
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    Read the first paragraph and the fantastic quote by Shane Battier on LeBron James.

    http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...-vs-simmons-iv

    Jordan, Magic, and Bird. None of them had to play during the information age and live through the 24/7/365 scrutiny LeBron does. Who knows how that would have affected them, especially Jordan. Deadspin, TMZ, etc. would have had a field day with him.


    Bird, Magic, MJ, and Kobe never QUIT on the court....

    That is the fundamental difference between the GREAT ONES... and the good ones.

    If James was a savy dude and really wanted to get some PR points he would re sign with Cleveland and play with KI and the "soon to be tandem of Ty and Cody Zeller" ... And get Cleveland a pro sports RING.

    and then Bron would be a Legend....

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    ^_^
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by J7F View Post
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    I'm 30 and remember Jordan well...
    Jordan was the better scorer and probably defender (by a slight edge)... But he could not pass and rebound like LeBron... Mentally Jordan was the master... Physically LeBron is...
    We have yet to see how LeBron's game will translate with age... How Jordan transitioned his game was beautiful...
    That will be the most key component and we'll just have to wait and see...
    When judging a players greatness I can't use titles as a factor... Titles are won by teams... Sure the goats are 9/10ths of what it takes to win one... But that other 1/10th is out of their control...
    I basically agree with you. Lebron is a slightly better passer and of course he's bigger and stronger and a better rebounder. Lot's of players can claim that but being stronger doesn't make him more athletic, Jordan was more athletic then Lebron. Jordan was also much faster, had better handles and a motor that seemed to have no limit. At the end of a game in which he'd expend more energy then any other player was capable of and he should've been slowing down, Jordan would just shift into another gear that no one else had the energy to match and he'd take over with no one able to stop him. It was awesome to watch until he'd do it to the Pacers. I don't see that in Lebron and I'm not saying he's not in great shape, he just isn't on that level. I'm also not dogging on younger fans. I'm just saying that someone who was a kid when Jordan was in his prime can't objectively compare Jordan to Lebron. I can't really tell you how good Wilt was even though he played when I was a kid and I'd defer to someone who followed his play in his prime. Your old enough to remember some of Jordan's prime objectively and how he changed his game but I'd think you'd remember him a little better in his last championship run then in his first.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."


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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by shags View Post
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    In what world outside of Pacerville is there a growing opinion that Reggie Miller was greater than Scottie Pippen?
    In what world inside of Pacerville is there a growing opinion that Reggie Miller was greater than Scottie Pippen?
    "I had to take her down like Chris Brown."

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    I never cared for MJ as a kid, let alone "The Decision" really killed any respect for LeBron I had. (Which was very little.) Now he is guilty by association because of Dwayne Wade and all the bandwagoners. I can't stand it.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Funny how hardly anyone has said a word about the quote in the thread title. People are so hung up on this argument that they're ignoring Lebron giving major props to Reggie.
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    LeBron is the first player to approach the level of greatness that is Jordan. I've seen a ton of Bird and Magic, and while they were very entertaining and great players...players with far more personality than Jordan & James, those guys are a notch below. I do think Wilt is in that region. But LeBron is in that region of greatness as well. Kobe, I think falls a hair short of that.

    Let's see Lebron win back to back titles like Kobe did in 2009 and 2010. Then maybe he'll deserve to be in the same class as Mamba and 45. Lebron is a more raw physical specimen than Kobe, but he hasn't had a better career yet. Obviously Kobe had a seven year head start on him, but Lebron still has a little ways to go before his career can be considered better than Kobe's.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by SMosley21 View Post
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    Funny how hardly anyone has said a word about the quote in the thread title. People are so hung up on this argument that they're ignoring Lebron giving major props to Reggie.
    You're right. Not one of the greatest, but I think Reggie is one of the greatest offensive players of all-time. He did not produce big numbers but I always felt if he shot more he would just keep scoring. At the same time, his offensive game was somewhat limited. All jumpshots. No post game at all. Rarely dunked and didn't go for contact or drive the lane that much. With all that said, he was phenomenal. He could literally beat you with his shooting and as a young player I do believe he was better than Ray Allen.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Let's see Lebron win back to back titles like Kobe did in 2009 and 2010. Then maybe he'll deserve to be in the same class as Mamba and 45. Lebron is a more raw physical specimen than Kobe, but he hasn't had a better career yet. Obviously Kobe had a seven year head start on him, but Lebron still has a little ways to go before his career can be considered better than Kobe's.
    Agreed. LeBron still has a lot to prove. The fact he's bigger and stronger than Kobe and Michael means little. I think people get caught up in that. At the same time, LeBron has Magic-esque abilities to get other guys involved. Michael had some of that and Kobe has a little. But LeBron actually has more than either IMO. Also, Kobe benefited greatly from prime Shaq years. Recall Kobe's teams about fell apart when he wasn't surrounded by talent. LeBron could put a team on his back that was pretty so-so and took them pretty far.

    Still, da Bulls would beat the tar out of the Heat. The Bulls would have both Rodman and Pippen to guard LeBron...two of the very best defenders of all-time....while that slacker Jordan would be on Wade. Nobody on the Heat could have possibly stopped Jordan, btw....
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 02-18-2013 at 11:07 PM.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Agreed. LeBron still has a lot to prove. The fact he's bigger and stronger than Kobe and Michael means little. I think people get caught up in that. At the same time, LeBron has Magic-esque abilities to get other guys involved. Michael had some of that and Kobe has a little. But LeBron actually has more than either IMO. Also, Kobe benefited greatly from prime Shaq years. Recall Kobe's teams about fell apart when he wasn't surrounded by talent. LeBron could put a team on his back that was pretty so-so and took them pretty far.

    Still, da Bulls would beat the tar out of the Heat. The Bulls would have both Rodman and Pippen to guard LeBron...two of the very best defenders of all-time....while that slacker Jordan would be on Wade. Nobody on the Heat could have possibly stopped Jordan, btw....
    I really don't like that argument.

    Kobe's teams were terrible..including Smush Parker, Walton, and Mihm in rotation minutes (all might have been starters..)

    Lebron had good players around him, and more importantly, players that were a perfect fit with him. He had big guys willing to defend and rebound and shooters that he could kick the ball out to when he drove to the basket.

    Those teams were actually built to be really successful in the regular season. The problem was in the playoffs, good defensive teams could stop it.

    No player wins a championship by himself. So yes, Kobe benefited from playing with Shaq. As Lebron benefited by playing with Wade, and MJ with Pippen, and Duncan with Parker and Ginobili etc. No one wins by himself. But when you are a hall of famer type of player, and you win 5, that's pretty special and imo, silly to discredit. Kobe also transitioned exceptionally well..and became..maybe an even better player when he was past his athletic prime. We'll see if Lebron can do that.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Agreed. LeBron still has a lot to prove. The fact he's bigger and stronger than Kobe and Michael means little. I think people get caught up in that. At the same time, LeBron has Magic-esque abilities to get other guys involved. Michael had some of that and Kobe has a little. But LeBron actually has more than either IMO. Also, Kobe benefited greatly from prime Shaq years. Recall Kobe's teams about fell apart when he wasn't surrounded by talent. LeBron could put a team on his back that was pretty so-so and took them pretty far.

    Still, da Bulls would beat the tar out of the Heat. The Bulls would have both Rodman and Pippen to guard LeBron...two of the very best defenders of all-time....while that slacker Jordan would be on Wade. Nobody on the Heat could have possibly stopped Jordan, btw....
    Pippen guarding LeBron, I'd kill to watch that, 90's rules of course. That would have been incredible to watch.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    I really don't like that argument.

    Kobe's teams were terrible..including Smush Parker, Walton, and Mihm in rotation minutes (all might have been starters..)

    Lebron had good players around him, and more importantly, players that were a perfect fit with him. He had big guys willing to defend and rebound and shooters that he could kick the ball out to when he drove to the basket.

    Those teams were actually built to be really successful in the regular season. The problem was in the playoffs, good defensive teams could stop it.

    No player wins a championship by himself. So yes, Kobe benefited from playing with Shaq. As Lebron benefited by playing with Wade, and MJ with Pippen, and Duncan with Parker and Ginobili etc. No one wins by himself. But when you are a hall of famer type of player, and you win 5, that's pretty special and imo, silly to discredit. Kobe also transitioned exceptionally well..and became..maybe an even better player when he was past his athletic prime. We'll see if Lebron can do that.
    You say that but compare LBJ's 07 finals team to the Lakers garbage 05/06 Smush Parker team. LBJ would have killed to have someone on Odom's level. And Smush Parker? Yeah LBJ would have taken him over Daniel Gibson any day of the week.

    LBJ's team SUCKED. He took them to the finals.

    Kobe got knocked out of the first round.

    I don't blame Kobe though, and the fact that he got them to the playoffs is impressive. But let's not act like he's ever been in the same ballpark as LBJ. That's a joke.
    Last edited by mattie; 02-19-2013 at 04:26 AM.
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