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Thread: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

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    Default LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    HOUSTON — It shouldn’t, but the sound bite virtually always trumps the fuller narrative.That’s a modern media fact of life and it’s especially true at a saturated carnival like All-Star weekend and during a free-for-all availability in which questions sometimes sound like pick-up lines and shout-outs are requested in three or four languages simultaneously. LeBron James has been in front of enough cameras and dealt with immense fame for long enough that he was ready to deliver his lines with ease when the inevitable topic was raised on Friday.

    “That’s his own opinion,” James said of Michael Jordan’s recent statement that he would pick Kobe Bryant over James on the basis of the Lakers guard’s five championships. “At the end of the day, rings [don't] always define someone’s career.

    “If that was the case, then I would sit up here and say I would take [Bill] Russell over Jordan. I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t take Russell over Jordan. Russell has 11 rings, Jordan has six. Take, I don’t know, Robert Horry over Kobe. I wouldn’t do that. It’s your own personal opinion. Rings [do] not define a person’s career.”

    This was a clever, almost senatorial maneuver: James answered the question, shifted the discussion and briefly distracted a five-deep pack of reporters that surrounded him.

    “You look at a guy like [former Bulls reserve] Jud Buechler, he has multiple rings, Charles Barkley does not have one ring,” James continued. “He’s not better than Charles Barkley. Patrick Ewing is one of the greatest of all time, Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time. Sometimes it’s about the situation you’re in, the team you’re in and it’s about timing as well.”

    That sound bite was followed by another, in which he tried to play off Jordan’s comments.

    “I don’t play the game and try to define who I am over what guys say or how they feel about me,” he said. “It doesn’t matter to me. I play for my family, I play for my teammates, I play for our coaching staff and I play for our fans, that’s it.”


    LeBron’s sound bites, politically crafted and politically correct, served their specific purpose, providing a rebuttal to Jordan’s widely circulated comments. The fuller context — in this case, still only 30 minutes of questions and answers — rendered the sound bites wholly unconvincing. The extended conversation gave the impression that James not only cares about the comparisons but that he cares deeply, and implied that he particularly cares about Jordan’s opinion. What other impression could be reached after listening to James rattle off his favorite Jordan moments, in honor of MJ’s upcoming 50th birthday, in rapid-fire succession?


    “I’ve got 50 of them, s— I’ve got 100 of them,” James said. “I’ve got so many memories of MJ. You name it. From the shoes, to him flying through the air, to him hitting the threes against the Blazers, to him being on the TV screen with Bugs Bunny. From him jumping over the buildings in a suit in the commercials. To him hitting the golf ball, swinging the baseball bat, so many memories. Him having the [ProStars] cartoon, you guys remember that? … I’ve got so many memories. MJ was an inspiration to me growing up.”


    Not only an inspiration but, he admitted, but a full-fledged hero.


    “You always tried to look for someone that was a superhero or someone who was beyond life,” James said. “Mine was Batman, mine was Transformers and Michael Jordan. Growing up those were the ones. I was like, I wish I could transform into this, I wish I could fly like Michael Jordan, or propel like Batman does.”


    Does James, who so openly idolizes Jordan as an adult and who wore No. 23 in high school and in Cleveland, really expect anyone to believe that Jordan’s assessment of his progress doesn’t matter to him? As James’ friend Jay-Z would say, “We don’t believe you, you need more people.”

    But this has morphed past simply validation-seeking now that James has claimed his first title and could very well add a second in a few months. Because just as easily as he made his respect for Jordan known, James didn’t blink in putting a target on his back.

    “I want to be the greatest of all time,” James declared, adding later: “As my talent continued to grow, as I continued to know about the game, appreciate the game, continued to get better, I felt like I had the drive, first of all, the passion, the commitment to the game to place myself as the greatest of all time, the best of all time, however you want to categorize it. I don’t do it to say I’m better than this guy or that guy. I do it for my own inspiration. I inspire myself. When I go out on the floor, I want to be the best of all time. That’s how I help myself each and every night.”


    The logical next question, then: How will he ultimately decide that he’s achieved his goal? Surely championships — rings — would be among the criteria, right? Does James have a checklist, a la a young Tiger Woods, who methodically tracked his progress alongside golf’s greats? What are the mileposts he is striving to hit?


    “Nope, nope, nope, nope,” James said, unwilling to reveal any details. “If I go out and play at a high level, those things will take care of themselves.”

    The fuller narrative, of course, reminds us that James values winning above everything. “It’s about damn time,” he declared after securing his first title last June. The previous year, after losing to the Mavericks in the Finals, he told reporters that he barely left his house for more than a week, such was his despair. How are we to reasonably believe the spirit of his sound bite — that rings aren’t critically important in judging greatness — when we have clear and convincing evidence of how much he personally values them?

    Moreover, the fuller narrative between James and Jordan, even in just this half-hour window, grew so complicated and intertwined that it became difficult to keep up. To summarize: James disputed Jordan’s standard for comparing him to Bryant; claimed he doesn’t seek Jordan’s validation; ranked Jordan over Russell; spoke openly about how he idolized Jordan as a child; and stated clearly that he wants to be the best player ever, which would push Jordan, Bryant and everyone else to the side.

    Eventually James conceded — not dejectedly but not eagerly, either — that these comparisons, for as long as they have already raged, are only just beginning.

    “That’s the life,” he said. “I understand it. That’s the life I live in. The comparisons are going to come. I’d rather be compared to Michael Jordan than somebody who wasn’t in the league very long. It’s very humbling. I’m grateful for the opportunity I’ve been given. Mike is in his own lane and I try to create my own.”


    What happens if and when James gets his second title? His fifth? His sixth? What happens if and when he passes Jordan — and Bryant — on the all-time scoring chart? What happens if and when he hits statistical peaks for career points, rebounds and assists that have never been achieved by the same player? What happens when he’s 50, like Jordan will be on Sunday, looking back on his career with the next generation of stars going after his records?

    “How do I want to be remembered when I’m 50?” James asked rhetorically. “I’m 28 years old, I ain’t thinking about that.”
    There it was, one last unconvincing sound bite. He wants to be the greatest and, like any man, he wants his due. Jordan won’t yet give it to him, but James is savvy enough not to whine about it and smart enough to make his case on the court. The fuller narrative suggests that the comparisons will be even more difficult and more complicated five years from now. Friday’s full narrative suggested that James knows that better than anyone.
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    I mean LBJ is a pretty good dude, I don't mind him as a player and respect the game he plays. The reason I don't like the Heat is because of the "fans" and Dwayne Wade, my oh my how I would love to just punch that guy in the face

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    If he thinks rings are so unimportant, why did he join 2 "budding" stars?
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    HAHA beautiful.

    James just killed MJ. Everything he said is true. And I'll say the same thing I told my cousin last night when he repeated MJ's comments. Of course MJ would say Kobe is better. Because at the end of the day, no rational person could EVER say Kobe is the player MJ was. It's a stupid debate. MJ is flat out better than Kobe in every possible aspect of the game.

    The problem with admitting LBJ's greatness? LBJ is quicker, stronger, more athletic, a better defender, a better passer than MJ ever was. At the end of his career we'll probably all say LBJ was the greatest to play the game.

    MJ is imtimidated by LBJ. And he should be. LBJ already has a ring at a younger age than MJ, so he could possibly end up with as many rings as well. (which would just be nuts if he was able to pull that off as well)
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by yoadknux View Post
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    If he thinks rings are so unimportant, why did he join 2 "budding" stars?
    He said they don't define who a player is. That's why we don't refer to Sam Jones as the greatest guard ever.
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Nothing more ridiculous than preaching about the greatness of Kobe because of his ridiculously fortunate career, while destroying 'Melo because he's extremely unfortunate. Championships are not how you define players' greatness.
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    To me, rings are for tie-breaking debates between players that belong in the same class/tier with one another.

    Derek Fisher was not a better player than Reggie Miller because he had all of those rings and Reggie never had any, but if you want to break a tie between a comparison or debate of two top-tier guys (like Kobe and LeBron), I think that's a fair way to pick somebody, even if it's flawed. I mean give 2007-2009 Lebron a 2000-2002 Shaq teammate and he probably wins three rings then, you know?

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Put LBJ in Kobe's shoes and he wins maybe 10, maybe 15 rings.
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Nothing more ridiculous than preaching about the greatness of Kobe because of his ridiculously fortunate career, while destroying 'Melo because he's extremely unfortunate. Championships are not how you define players' greatness.
    I Would not say that up until this year, Melo has ever been considered having "greatness" He was a very selfish player in Denver who didn't play defense and called his own number way too much. He hits tough shots, but he doesn't always make the correct basketball play. Everyone can agree that LBJ is making the correct basketball play to win games and not just chucking up tough shots.

    I do agree that Kobe has had an unbelievably fortunate career. With out Shaq on board, there is no way Kobe gets this level of hype or respect.
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    I Would not say that up until this year, Melo has ever been considered having "greatness" He was a very selfish player in Denver who didn't play defense and called his own number way too much. He hits tough shots, but he doesn't always make the correct basketball play. Everyone can agree that LBJ is making the correct basketball play to win games and not just chucking up tough shots.

    I do agree that Kobe has had an unbelievably fortunate career. With out Shaq on board, there is no way Kobe gets this level of hype or respect.
    The point, is had 'melo been as fortunate as Kobe, then we would talk completely different about him.

    If Kobe has been in 'Melo shoes, he'd be criticized for his defensive effort and selfishness for his entire career.
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    To me, rings are for tie-breaking debates between players that belong in the same class/tier with one another.

    Derek Fisher was not a better player than Reggie Miller because he had all of those rings and Reggie never had any, but if you want to break a tie between a comparison or debate of two top-tier guys (like Kobe and LeBron), I think that's a fair way to pick somebody, even if it's flawed. I mean give 2007-2009 Lebron a 2000-2002 Shaq teammate and he probably wins three rings then, you know?
    That's exactly how I see it too.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Put LBJ in Kobe's shoes and he wins maybe 10, maybe 15 rings.
    This is only LeBron's 10th year. How could he have 15 rings?
    Last edited by shags; 02-16-2013 at 11:40 AM.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    The point, is had 'melo been as fortunate as Kobe, then we would talk completely different about him.

    If Kobe has been in 'Melo shoes, he'd be criticized for his defensive effort and selfishness for his entire career.
    I don't think so, i've never seen Kobe as a player who doesn't bring it defensively. Kobe is far more of a tactician than a Player like Melo.
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by shags View Post
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    This is only LeBron 10th year. How could he have 15 rings?
    Put LBJ in Kobe's shoes...
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Put LBJ in Kobe's shoes...
    Oh I see. While I'm at it, can I put Chris Paul in Derek Fisher's shoes, or is that just ridiculous?

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    If Reggie Miller had a Scottie Pippen by his side (And I think there is a growing opinion that Reggie was much better than Scottie) then how many championships would have Reggie Miller won? I believe that championships are not the ultimate measure. On some level, you are the product of your circumstances. Barkley, Miller, and Ewing never played on the caliber of teams that Jordan did. Ergo, while Jordan is the greatest, there may be some who could have ascended to a higher level if they had been able to play on better teams.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Here's the point. It's not ridiculous to say, right now, that Kobe's had a better career than LeBron. I agree with MJ on that, and that's how I took it when I saw the clip. I also don't have a problem with LeBron's response either.

    But LeBron has more years to play than Kobe does. If LeBron gets 4 titles at relatively the same production, than I think you go with LeBron over Kobe. But if LeBron only wins one more, or none, than you probably go with Kobe. You don't know yet though.

    It is ridiculous to say, right now, that Kobe is better than LeBron. That's not what I took from Jordan's comments though.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    In my opinion, the measure of Kobe Bryant is not limited by his contribution to championship teams and record books, but the drama he has been a part of for two decades. Kobe Bryant is not a team player. I think the question that should be asked about Kobe Bryant is not, "How many did he win?" but "How many more could he have won?" if he had been a better teammate. Furthermore, Kobe Bryant was not the best player on multiple championship teams. We forget that Kobe Bryant played with Shaquille O'Neal who was one of the most dominant players of all time.

    Michael Jordan has always been a renowned jerk, his comments should be taken with great moderation.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by 1984 View Post
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    If Reggie Miller had a Scottie Pippen by his side (And I think there is a growing opinion that Reggie was much better than Scottie) then how many championships would have Reggie Miller won? I believe that championships are not the ultimate measure. On some level, you are the product of your circumstances. Barkley, Miller, and Ewing never played on the caliber of teams that Jordan did. Ergo, while Jordan is the greatest, there may be some who could have ascended to a higher level if they had been able to play on better teams.
    In what world outside of Pacerville is there a growing opinion that Reggie Miller was greater than Scottie Pippen?

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    I won't compare careers because obviously at this point point Kobe's>LBJ's, BUT just going off skill level and the player themselves, I would take current Lebron over prime Kobe.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Some of you if not most may know Haralabob. I think his tweet sums it up perfectly, "Why does anyone care that MJ would take Kobe over Lebron? You guys are aware of MJ's draft and trading record right?"

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by shags View Post
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    This is only LeBron's 10th year. How could he have 15 rings?
    Because he's LeBron Freaking James /green
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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    HAHA beautiful.

    James just killed MJ. Everything he said is true. And I'll say the same thing I told my cousin last night when he repeated MJ's comments. Of course MJ would say Kobe is better. Because at the end of the day, no rational person could EVER say Kobe is the player MJ was. It's a stupid debate. MJ is flat out better than Kobe in every possible aspect of the game.

    The problem with admitting LBJ's greatness? LBJ is quicker, stronger, more athletic, a better defender, a better passer than MJ ever was. At the end of his career we'll probably all say LBJ was the greatest to play the game.

    MJ is imtimidated by LBJ. And he should be. LBJ already has a ring at a younger age than MJ, so he could possibly end up with as many rings as well. (which would just be nuts if he was able to pull that off as well)
    Damn you really don't like MJ do you? I get the whole Pacers/Bulls rivalry, but LeBron has a ton of work to do to even think about being at MJ's level let alone surpassing it. Even this streak that LBJ is on now, its nothing compared to what MJ did back in 89' with the ten triple doubles in eleven games.

    I think people forget about how good Jordan actually was. Dude averaged 30ppg for his career even with his last two seasons on the Wizards. He left two rings on the table when he went to play baseball as well.

    I think LeBron is a ridiculously good basketball player. And will go down as one of the best ever. But damn man, he's no MJ. No one is.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Michael Jordan saying that he'll choose Kobe against James is really a compliment to James. You know how well MJ evaluates talent you know...

    Seriously, I think it affected LeBron somehow because MJ's picking is really flawed (looking at the number of rings), and LeBron no doubt admires Jordan more than any other former greats. And what James said is true in that rings do not define greatness or who's better than, but of course it is still every great player's goal at the end of the day. Basketball is a game of 5 vs. 5 on the court, so championships need more than just one great player to achieve that, even as great as Jordan is he'll basically admit that.

    As for Kobe, he's a great player but I will not even put him in the top 10 (maybe he'll crack top 20 but that's a maybe). His 1st 3 rings he was 2nd fiddle next to a dominant Shaq, and he also had great teammates as well that saved them in critical situations (Robert Horry vs. the Kings for example). And his antics against Shaq contributed in a way for the Lakers to fall apart. Then made threats to leave or be traded when he just can't win without Shaw. Then he just got lucky that in exchange for scrubs he got a great teammate in Pau Gasol to bow down to him to salvage his career as a future GOAT candidate next to Jordan. And he almost didn't get his 5th ring because he was laying eggs in game 7 (and he attempted so much to almost bury his team to ground). I just can't consider a guy like that better than James.

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    Default Re: LeBron James Scrutiny | "Reggie Miller is one of the greatest of all time."

    Quote Originally Posted by 15th parallel View Post
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    Then he just got lucky that in exchange for scrubs he got a great teammate in Pau Gasol to bow down to him to salvage his career as a future GOAT candidate next to Jordan. And he almost didn't get his 5th ring because he was laying eggs in game 7 (and he attempted so much to almost bury his team to ground). I just can't consider a guy like that better than James.
    Wouldn't call Marc Gasol a scrub, at this point in their careers, Marc seems to be the more dominant player.

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