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Thread: On Gerald Green's value

  1. #51
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    Default Re: On Gerald Green's value

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    I would've stopped right there. We should've aimed higher. Or if not, just sign a Sam Young to a vet minimum deal and get the same/better production.
    Aimed higher with what money?

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  3. #52

    Default Re: On Gerald Green's value

    Quote Originally Posted by Goyle View Post
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    Aimed higher with what money?
    The vet minimum for all I care. Almost everyone on the target is higher than Green or Delfino.

  4. #53
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    Default Re: On Gerald Green's value

    Why is this such an issue? The Pacers made a bad signing but it not nearly as bad of a contract as the ones that Tinsley, Bender and Croshere got. Those were all 5+ years and 6-7mil per season. This is 2 more years and 7 mil total.

    I think the Pacers didn't forecast that Lance would make the leap that he did, so they wanted someone who could potentially lead the offense for the bench. Green looked like he might be capable of that based upon what he put up last season. Delfino would have been a better signing in hindsight as he is a smart player and good spot up shooter, which with Lance eventually leading the 2nd unit would have been a good complement. But its always easier to see in hindsight.

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  6. #54
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    Default Re: On Gerald Green's value

    What is all this love for Delfino. The dude can't do anything but spot shoot, which does little good in playoff intensity. So he gets you a few buckets in 17 minutes, he will give up 3x more.

    Fascinating
    .

    Frank Vogel says "Killer instinct, start strong, build a lead and then step on their throats."

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    Default Re: On Gerald Green's value

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer Fan View Post
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    What is all this love for Delfino. The dude can't do anything but spot shoot, which does little good in playoff intensity. So he gets you a few buckets in 17 minutes, he will give up 3x more.

    Fascinating

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  9. #56

    Default Re: On Gerald Green's value

    I can't believe I'm really going to say this, but I don't think Tyler should be traded. Oh, good Lord above it makes me sigh and shake my head to say that.

    Anyhow, since this thread has been 80% hijacked at this point, let me say something about Ian Mahinmi. Anyone who thinks his acquisition has been a bust isn't really looking. Ian is a very good player and would probably start on many teams and do well at it, too. If he had the opportunity at greater consistent minutes I think he'd be producing at least 12&10. Just look at his per-minute stats. I cited him as a player to target as a Hibbert replacement during free agency.

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    Default Re: On Gerald Green's value

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer Fan View Post
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    What is all this love for Delfino. The dude can't do anything but spot shoot, which does little good in playoff intensity. So he gets you a few buckets in 17 minutes, he will give up 3x more.

    Fascinating
    Interesting. Korver absolutely KILLED us in 2011...and he's only a spot shooter.

    I'm not saying I'm all for Delfino or anything, just that history disagrees with your post.

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  12. #58
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    Default Re: On Gerald Green's value

    Deflino struck me as a guy who could shoot well, generally knew how to play team basketball, and I thought he was considered an okay defender. But those were just my impressions; I don't mean to make any declarations one way or another. But between he and Green, I'd think I would have gone with the guy who stayed in the league longer.

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  14. #59
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    Default Re: On Gerald Green's value

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek2k3 View Post
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    Interesting. Korver absolutely KILLED us in 2011...and he's only a spot shooter.

    I'm not saying I'm all for Delfino or anything, just that history disagrees with your post.
    First, Korver can play some defense unlike Delfino. Korver is taller and has a much better standing reach.
    Secondly, Pacers wasn't good at all and was lucky to be there.
    Third, Korver didn't kill it.
    Forth, Korver done nothing against the much better team and team defense in the Heat. The Heat shut him down and he was worthless.

    Lastly, Allen is a spot up shooter and is terrible on defense, but something tells me he isn't a one trick pony on how he gets his shot, unlike Delfino.

    But hey, let's just name drop to make weak arguments just to do it.
    .

    Frank Vogel says "Killer instinct, start strong, build a lead and then step on their throats."

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    Default Re: On Gerald Green's value

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    Deflino struck me as a guy who could shoot well, generally knew how to play team basketball, and I thought he was considered an okay defender. But those were just my impressions; I don't mean to make any declarations one way or another. But between he and Green, I'd think I would have gone with the guy who stayed in the league longer.
    I understand, and the safe thing is if you can get a trade of Green for Delfino, you have to do it.
    But, I would rather gamble that Green can put it together in time for the playoffs. I'm sure the FO was taking that gamble and I'm willing to give him more time. If he doesnt, then trade him this summer and move on. If we trade Green, let's hope It's for someone that is better then Delfino. Even if Pacers throw more at the deal.
    .

    Frank Vogel says "Killer instinct, start strong, build a lead and then step on their throats."

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    Default Re: On Gerald Green's value

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer Fan View Post
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    First, Korver can play some defense unlike Delfino. Korver is taller and has a much better standing reach.
    Secondly, Pacers wasn't good at all and was lucky to be there.
    Third, Korver didn't kill it.
    Forth, Korver done nothing against the much better team and team defense in the Heat. The Heat shut him down and he was worthless.

    Lastly, Allen is a spot up shooter and is terrible on defense, but something tells me he isn't a one trick pony on how he gets his shot, unlike Delfino.

    But hey, let's just name drop to make weak arguments just to do it.




    I disagree 100% with that statement. Korver is not anything close to a good defender.

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  18. #62
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    Default Re: On Gerald Green's value

    The ankle thing is overstated, and he really wasn't playing especially well before the injury. I think it's mostly in his head, not a physical thing.

    People want to talk about how many terrible decisions he makes and all the "bonehead" mistakes, but his turnover rate is lower than last year, and is pretty respectable for a SG who is told to create for himself on occasion but mostly plays off the ball. His rebound rate is lower which concerns me a bit, and his assist rate is lower (mostly a function of limited handling of the ball), and his steal rate is lower (entire team seems to play at home on defense).

    The point is, most of his rates have reasonable explanations for where they are compared to last season. The one thing that doesn't have a reasonable explanation is his FG%, and despite people wanting to claim it's ****** shot selection or anything of the like, he's missed shots at a rate this year that he simply wasn't missing frequently last year. I'd venture to say about 75% of the problem is him inexplicably forgetting how to shoot the ball, and the last 25% is him being an absolute nightmare fit for this offense. There's no way the Pacers front office, or anyone else really, could have watched Green last year and anticipated him forgetting how to shoot the basketball.

    A Gerald Green fan who now finds himself rooting for the Suns.

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  20. #63
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    Default Re: On Gerald Green's value

    Quote Originally Posted by spreedom View Post
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    I disagree 100% with that statement. Korver is not anything close to a good defender.
    No where did I say he was a good defender. What's your deal, can't read? Like to make stuff up to try and prove a point by using two pictures that mean absolutely nothing, except they are funny.
    .

    Frank Vogel says "Killer instinct, start strong, build a lead and then step on their throats."

  21. #64
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    Default Re: On Gerald Green's value

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek2k3 View Post
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    Interesting. Korver absolutely KILLED us in 2011...and he's only a spot shooter.

    I'm not saying I'm all for Delfino or anything, just that history disagrees with your post.
    An 8th seed with a losing record that had Mike Dunleavy getting significant minutes had defensive lapses?

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  23. #65

    Default Re: On Gerald Green's value

    Quote Originally Posted by repole View Post
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    The ankle thing is overstated, and he really wasn't playing especially well before the injury. I think it's mostly in his head, not a physical thing.

    People want to talk about how many terrible decisions he makes and all the "bonehead" mistakes, but his turnover rate is lower than last year, and is pretty respectable for a SG who is told to create for himself on occasion but mostly plays off the ball. His rebound rate is lower which concerns me a bit, and his assist rate is lower (mostly a function of limited handling of the ball), and his steal rate is lower (entire team seems to play at home on defense).

    The point is, most of his rates have reasonable explanations for where they are compared to last season. The one thing that doesn't have a reasonable explanation is his FG%, and despite people wanting to claim it's ****** shot selection or anything of the like, he's missed shots at a rate this year that he simply wasn't missing frequently last year. I'd venture to say about 75% of the problem is him inexplicably forgetting how to shoot the ball, and the last 25% is him being an absolute nightmare fit for this offense. There's no way the Pacers front office, or anyone else really, could have watched Green last year and anticipated him forgetting how to shoot the basketball.
    It is their job to try to figure out what is going on in his head when they talk with him and want to sign him. Sure, someone could have anticipated that. Some teams exactly did that and let the Pacers sign him.

    I like Green and I still believe he can be useful for the Pacers, but someone needs to get into his head like Bird 1 and Bird 2 do with Stephenson and the psychiatrist does with Hibbert.
    The moment people expected him to show up and deliver, definitely was not easy. Granger out, Lance not ready yet, Paul dealing with his own struggles. Entirely new bench, except for the guy who is known for mostly looking out for himself. Green is new to the team. No point guard on the team like Deron. A (too) slow pace for him.

    I can understand why he struggled, but he needs to get over it and our FO sure is to blame for signing him. He wouldn't be the first Pacer with an overstated injury.

  24. #66

    Default Re: On Gerald Green's value



    Proof Bill Russell was a bad defender.

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  26. #67
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    Default Re: On Gerald Green's value

    Quote Originally Posted by MvPlumlee View Post
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    It is their job to try to figure out what is going on in his head when they talk with him and want to sign him. Sure, someone could have anticipated that. Some teams exactly did that and let the Pacers sign him.
    I couldn't disagree more. Anyone who talked to Green last year or this offseason had nothing but great things to say about his attitude and how he seemingly had his head on straight. There was article after article about how the light switch had finally gone on. There was absolutely 0 reason to think he'd turn into THIS bad of a shooter. Regress to the mean some? Sure. Struggle to adapt early on? Sure. But not 48% to 34% struggle. No one could have seen that coming other than a time traveler. It'd be one thing if Green was a classic contract year type guy who got his money and stopped giving a ****, but I assure you that's not the case. Saying someone could anticipate that is like saying the St Louis Cardinals should have anticipated Rick Ankiel forgetting how to throw a strike (no idea if anyone will get that reference). Green had some ups and downs confidence wise in his past, and has always been a streaky shooter, but never like this.

    Again, people can talk about other teams passing on Green all they want, but by all accounts the Nets would have happily signed him to a similar deal if it'd made any sense with their roster composition at the time/they had his bird rights/they weren't busy getting through the Dwightmare. Not to mention, using that type of logic is faulty to begin with. Every team other than the Nets passed on Green last year, and that worked out pretty well for the Nets.

    A Gerald Green fan who now finds himself rooting for the Suns.

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  28. #68

    Default Re: On Gerald Green's value

    What can I say?

    I guess it's a good thing Gerald has his fans, who will always have his back, no matter what.

    Go Green

  29. #69
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    Default Re: On Gerald Green's value

    I mean I root for Green and all, but nothing in my post is "pro Gerald," if anything it's placing the blame on Green and not the Pacers. Expecting the Pacer's front office or anyone else to have somehow anticipated him becoming a terrible jumpshooter seemingly over night is ridiculous.

    A Gerald Green fan who now finds himself rooting for the Suns.

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  31. #70

    Default Re: On Gerald Green's value

    Quote Originally Posted by repole View Post
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    I mean I root for Green and all, but nothing in my post is "pro Gerald," if anything it's placing the blame on Green and not the Pacers. Expecting the Pacer's front office or anyone else to have somehow anticipated him becoming a terrible jumpshooter seemingly over night is ridiculous.
    Nope, you just can't accept the possibility that Gerald Green might always be a terrible jumpshooter when there is pressure on him or when he isn't playing for a lottery team(Nets).

    Saying nobody knew this could happen is just your way of denying reality.

  32. #71
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    Default Re: On Gerald Green's value

    I haven't read all of this thread yet and I'm not sure if this was mentioned but Green shot a WORSE percentage in the DUNK CONTEST than he is shooting in this regular season lol just thought I would throw that out there

  33. #72
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    Default Re: On Gerald Green's value

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulGeorgeHill View Post
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    I haven't read all of this thread yet and I'm not sure if this was mentioned but Green shot a WORSE percentage in the DUNK CONTEST than he is shooting in this regular season lol just thought I would throw that out there
    I don't know how accurate that is. It looked like he was making at least one dunk per attempt...

  34. #73
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    Default Re: On Gerald Green's value

    Quote Originally Posted by MvPlumlee View Post
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    Nope, you just can't accept the possibility that Gerald Green might always be a terrible jumpshooter when there is pressure on him or when he isn't playing for a lottery team(Nets).

    Saying nobody knew this could happen is just your way of denying reality.
    Please, tell me what logical reason there was to believe that a guy who shot 42% for his career and 35% from three would turn into a 35%/28% shooter this year? The Mavs were a playoff team and he shot 44% for them. There were plenty of reasons to think Green might not fit here, but there were absolutely none to think he'd be THIS bad.

    A Gerald Green fan who now finds himself rooting for the Suns.

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  36. #74
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    Default Re: On Gerald Green's value

    Quote Originally Posted by repole View Post
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    Please, tell me what logical reason there was to believe that a guy who shot 42% for his career and 35% from three would turn into a 35%/28% shooter this year? The Mavs were a playoff team and he shot 44% for them. There were plenty of reasons to think Green might not fit here, but there were absolutely none to think he'd be THIS bad.
    I think it's fair to say you couldn't anticipate how truly awful Green has been. Hindsight is 20/20, and it's just a bad break that he's been so useless this season.

    In fact, the kid has already played more games this season (44) than in all but one other season in his career. He just doesn't seem to be an NBA player, unfortunately.

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    Default Re: On Gerald Green's value

    Quote Originally Posted by repole View Post
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    Please, tell me what logical reason there was to believe that a guy who shot 42% for his career and 35% from three would turn into a 35%/28% shooter this year? The Mavs were a playoff team and he shot 44% for them. There were plenty of reasons to think Green might not fit here, but there were absolutely none to think he'd be THIS bad.
    That was 4 years ago, and happened to be the season that he played himself out of the league for over two years. He also played less than 10MPG for Dallas and was completely out of the rotation by the time the playoffs rolled around. He wasn't a contributor on that squad in any meaningful way. I don't think citing that season as an example of productivity makes any sense at all.

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