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Thread: Maybe Granger should go to the bench when healthy

  1. #126
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    Default Re: Maybe Granger should go to the bench when healthy

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Defense. You can run whatever system you want on offense, though they are not at all suited to play together that end, either.
    Ok. I'll talk defense with you in a moment, but for now let's stick with offense. And lets assume for the sake of discussion that Danny's reasonably healthy. If he's not capable of playing more than 20mpg, then this entire discussion is moot.

    What about Danny's game would detract from Paul George, or vice versa? I see Paul/Granger/Lance getting pretty much all of the minutes, which means we'll see Danny/PG, Danny/Lance, and PG/Lance. I think all three of those will be effective pairings. But even if you bring Danny off the bench, you've still got to play him with PG some of the time.
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  3. #127
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    Default Re: Maybe Granger should go to the bench when healthy

    How to use Granger is a tough decision IMO. I would probably keep our starting unit because it really is working out well...and fit Danny in as a backup instead of players like Sam Young and OJ.

    If he takes Lance's spot in the starting unit, the matchups are not to our advantage. He would need to guard LeBron and LeBron would be able to operate. Wade would run Paul around screens and LeBron would dish to him for an and-one.

    A better plan is to have Paul disrupt LeBron and give help on Wade. We'll have to do that anyway, btw, when Wade gets hot.

    It's good that it's a tough decision though. It just shows how well we match up with the Heat. Hibbert, as weak as his game is on offense, he remains critical to the D. You cannot take DWest or Paul off the floor. Granger is probably going to be a step slow, so I'm not sure he replaces our guards. But he can be a great addition to the bench.

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  5. #128
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    Cool Re: Maybe Granger should go to the bench when healthy

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    Granger will start at the 3 and PG will start at the 2, it's the best thing for the team. I still expect Danny to be the best offensive player we have once he adjust and I think he'll most likely lead the team in points per game by the end of the year. Danny is a very good defender and I think he guards the 3 better the PG does, I don't think he gets due credit in that area. PG is a better perimeter defender but Danny isn't bad their either. Of the 2 PG is better suited to guard the 2 then Danny is, nothing else makes sense for this team. Not starting your best scorer would be just plain stupid.
    Granger should not even be mentioned in the same sentence with PG defensively. PG has already passed him as our best offensive player. If bringing Granger back alters that, the Pacers will play about .500 for the rest of the season and lose positions in the east. Granger can't guard a 2 at all, he doesn't have the footspeed or the desire to defend. I don't know where this crap about Danny being a good defender comes from, he has never been a good defender and he never will be...... ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Ok. I'll talk defense with you in a moment, but for now let's stick with offense. And lets assume for the sake of discussion that Danny's reasonably healthy. If he's not capable of playing more than 20mpg, then this entire discussion is moot.

    What about Danny's game would detract from Paul George, or vice versa? I see Paul/Granger/Lance getting pretty much all of the minutes, which means we'll see Danny/PG, Danny/Lance, and PG/Lance. I think all three of those will be effective pairings. But even if you bring Danny off the bench, you've still got to play him with PG some of the time.
    Neither of them are primary ball handlers. George has improved his ability to shoot off 2-3 dribbles, but he does not provide what lance does, which is another guy that can handle the ball and feed both west and hibbert with accurate passes. George loses his effectiveness when he's forced to handle the ball too long.

    They're both guys that catch and either shoot or take 2-3 dribbles and then shoot, albeit from different spots on the floor. Fine if you have Chris Paul dominating the ball on offense. Not so much if you have George Hill.

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  8. #130
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    Default Re: Maybe Granger should go to the bench when healthy

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    Granger should not even be mentioned in the same sentence with PG defensively. PG has already passed him as our best offensive player. If bringing Granger back alters that, the Pacers will play about .500 for the rest of the season and lose positions in the east. Granger can't guard a 2 at all, he doesn't have the footspeed or the desire to defend. I don't know where this crap about Danny being a good defender comes from, he has never been a good defender and he never will be...... ...
    Danny started his career being a pretty good defender. He got really bad and now he's about an average defender. Yes, that is a far cry from Paul George. So, I agree. Just ask LeBron what he thinks...

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  10. #131
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    Default Re: Maybe Granger should go to the bench when healthy

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Neither of them are primary ball handlers. George has improved his ability to shoot off 2-3 dribbles, but he does not provide what lance does, which is another guy that can handle the ball and feed both west and hibbert with accurate passes. George loses his effectiveness when he's forced to handle the ball too long.

    They're both guys that catch and either shoot or take 2-3 dribbles and then shoot, albeit from different spots on the floor. Fine if you have Chris Paul dominating the ball on offense. Not so much if you have George Hill.
    I'll grant that Lance is a better ballhandler than Danny Granger, and Lance frequently makes incredible heads-up passes to our bigs (and everybody else, actually). But I don't concede that Danny can't feed the post. I've always thought he did that pretty well, actually.

    Ultimately, we'll just have to see. If Danny and Paul George don't work well together, I'll be totally fine with Danny coming off the bench. I just don't see that as likely. So... time to talk about defense?
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  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    ...you mean pretty much every team you're competing with in the east?
    But none of those teams have a guy thats going to kill Danny. How many teams are going to go away from their best player to try and take advantage of Danny?

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  14. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goyle View Post
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    But none of those teams have a guy thats going to kill Danny. How many teams are going to go away from their best player to try and take advantage of Danny?
    ...how many times did the pacers go to hibbert in the postseason to take advantage of Miami's centers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    ...how many times did the pacers go to hibbert in the postseason to take advantage of Miami's centers?
    Probably as much as we did against any other team. Roy was our best player last season.

  16. #135
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    Default Re: Maybe Granger should go to the bench when healthy

    Eastern Wing Combos:

    1. Miami - Wade / LeBron
    2. New York - Shumpert / Anthony
    3. Indiana ---
    4. Chicago - Deng / Rip
    5. Brooklyn - J.Johnson / G.Wallace
    6. Atlanta - D.Harris / J.Smith
    7. Milwaukee - Ellis / Mbah a Moute
    8. Boston - Lee / Pierce

    In most cases, I think a PG/Danny combo, a PG/Lance combo, or a Danny/Lance combo could be effective at guarding these guys. I expect us to send multiple looks at every offensive player. I could see Danny and Paul switching back and forth a lot, to keep the defense off-balance. I'm not trying to have a ton of bravado, but I think we could do a good job against every one of those combos.
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  18. #136
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    Default Re: Maybe Granger should go to the bench when healthy

    He's probably counting JR "I shoot 40%" Smith for NY.

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    Default Re: Maybe Granger should go to the bench when healthy

    Quote Originally Posted by cgg View Post
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    He's probably counting JR "I shoot 40%" Smith for NY.
    .416% for Danny last year and .438% for his career........

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    Default Re: Maybe Granger should go to the bench when healthy

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    .416% for Danny last year and .438% for his career........
    .542 TS% .564 career.
    .494 for JR Smith.

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  22. #139
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    Default Re: Maybe Granger should go to the bench when healthy

    Quote Originally Posted by cgg View Post
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    .542 TS% .564 career.
    .494 for JR Smith.
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...grangda01.html


    I'm pretty sure you are looking at Lebron james or Tyler Chandler shooting percentage.

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    Default Re: Maybe Granger should go to the bench when healthy

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...grangda01.html


    I'm pretty sure you are looking at Lebron james or Tyler Chandler shooting percentage.
    True shooting percentage is weighted for FT and the value of 3 pointers.

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    Default Re: Maybe Granger should go to the bench when healthy

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    It affects who's guarding who on defense.
    You keep saying that, but man you've got to get past that point. Does it not occur to you that George will defend the opponents best wing player, regardless of whether that player is a SG or a SF? This is especially true if one of the opposing players is a prolific scorer.

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  27. #142

    Default Re: Maybe Granger should go to the bench when healthy

    I feel Frank should do what he said he was gonna do...Bring Danny off the bench at first, then put him in the starting lineup....

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    Default Re: Maybe Granger should go to the bench when healthy

    At the end of the day you need to ask yourself, who is going to be closing games? I'd like to think at this point most people (with the exception of Pacergeek) would think that Danny will close the games out--especially in the playoffs. If you're comfortable with Danny closing games, why aren't you comfortable with him starting?

    You wanna say you don't want to mess up the chemistry of the current starters, well I say that our team last year was lauded for it's team chemistry WITH Danny being a part of that.

    You wanna say that you don't want PG guarding SG's, but he's going to be guarding the opposing teams best perimeter threats no matter what. So that means when we play the Brooklyn Nets, he's going to be guarding Joe Johnson, in spite of the fact that Joe is going to be playing the 2. It also means that he's going to be guarding Lebron and Carmelo as well. So it doesn't really matter WHO is starting with him.

    You wanna say we're going to miss Lance's creativity and ability to push the ball in transition, well I say we're going to be gaining another spot up shooter/versatile scorer who can help take pressure off of West and Paul. We're also going to be adding a player that is going to get about 5 plus FT/ATT a game.

    I can see similarities between Manu/Kevin Martin/Jamal Crawford type of scorer off the bench. But those types of players are NORMALLY dynamic, ball handling, change of pace perimeter players. Danny is NOT one of those types. With him in the second unit, yes he's going to get all the shots he wants, but he's not going to help guys like Tyler or Ian. Lance however is one of those dynamic ball handlers that I described and his presence in the second unit will help the guys within the second unit much more than the presence of a scorer like Danny would.

    IF Danny were to come off the bench, I wouldn't be too disappointed as I'd expect him to be the player that CLOSES the games. But there are just as many counter arguments for him to start as there is for him to come off the bench.
    Last edited by Ace E.Anderson; 02-07-2013 at 07:57 AM.

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  30. #144

    Default Re: Maybe Granger should go to the bench when healthy

    This is not last years' team. The chemistry they had last year is way different than the chemistry they are showing now. They were practically Cinderella last year whereas this season they seem like strong winners.

    Suggesting Granger to the bench is no knock on Granger-- its the opposite. The reserves will benefit greatly from a veteran presence. People will say the reserves need a dynamic presence like Lance. I aboslutely love Lance, but I think Granger is definitely a better influence on the bench than Lance is. The dynamic between Lance and the other starters is difficult to quantify, but its there. Lance and Paul have become men together on the court this year. They are a tandem. Vogel should not break that up. It will be regretted if he does.

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    Default Re: Maybe Granger should go to the bench when healthy

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    Having Danny and Paul together means our offense regresses to last year.
    Which was significantly more efficient than the offense we run this season.
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  33. #146
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    Default Re: Maybe Granger should go to the bench when healthy

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    ...how many times did the pacers go to hibbert in the postseason to take advantage of Miami's centers?
    Teams with a balanced starting 5 can exploit the miss match and take advantage of the opponent's weakness.

    Teams with superstars will keep feeding the superstar.
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  35. #147
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    Default Re: Maybe Granger should go to the bench when healthy

    It's not like we are gonna see the entire 2nd unit in the game at the same time. There is usually a mix in there depending who is hot and who is in foul trouble. I'd start Danny when he is ready to go those minutes and if he is not ready have him come off of the bench for a few games to get the rust off and get his feet wet. With Danny and Paul on the floor at the same time it intrigues me to see how a further along Paul and a healthy Danny would play together. Most teams would have difficulty with our length and as long as Danny plays defense on an average level we will exploit mismatches. I would like to see more of Lance getting a few minutes at the 1 spot in addition to being a scoring threat with intensity that our second unit needs. He has won me over as a good facilitator of the offense. Lance is a lot stronger than I first thought and has improved his defense a lot.

  36. #148

    Default Re: Maybe Granger should go to the bench when healthy

    Why are people assuming that PG made a huge leap this year solely because he is guarding SFs now, and Lance made a huge leap only because he is starting? If both were thrust into the large roles that they have now a season ago, IMO they would not have been ready for it. Both have matured and gained confidence. It doesn't mean they have stumbled upon the one and only niche they can be used effectively. If the 3 players are splitting 96 minutes of playing time for SG & SF, all combinations will be used.
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  38. #149
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    Default Re: Maybe Granger should go to the bench when healthy

    Time to post some stats, people:

    From the Indiana vs Miami game per ESPN:

    Paul George was the primary defender on 14 of LeBron James' 25 plays Friday, and James had success on those plays. He was 7-for-10 when guarded by George, with five of those seven field goals coming inside 10 feet.
    Here's the recap link -> http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?id=400278405

    Also, let's look at some shooting splits:

    Paul George at home: 47.1 FG%, 47.9 3p%

    Paul George on the road: 38.6 FG%, 29.6 3p%

    Lance Stephenson at home: 51.7 FG%, 43.9 3p%

    Lanc Stephenson on the road: 44.7 FG%, 29.4 3p%

    Danny Granger at home (last season): 42.1 FG%, 37.4 3p%

    Danny Granger on the road (same): 40.3 FG%, 37.8 3p%

    Here are the links of the shooting splits -> http://www.basketball-reference.com/...shooting/2013/ (Paul George), http://www.basketball-reference.com/...shooting/2013/ (Lance Stephenson), http://www.basketball-reference.com/...shooting/2012/ (Danny Granger),

    Simply put, young players get a tremendous psychological boost at home. That's why we're amazing at home.

    On the flip side, young players are not that good away from home. That's why we're not that great on the road. But I'm not worried. PG and Lance are still so young. I have no doubt in my mind that both players will become consistently good both at home and on the road.

    But for the time being. We need a consistent 3 point threat. It frees up space and gives more scoring opportunities to our bigs.

    It's that simple. I don't care about who starts, to be honest. I just want the players to be run the way they should be run
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  40. #150
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    Default Re: Maybe Granger should go to the bench when healthy

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    Why are people assuming that PG made a huge leap this year solely because he is guarding SFs now
    Because it fits the "Granger is holding back PG so he should be traded" argument.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
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