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Could there be a Pacers way of building...

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  • #61
    Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Especially with the new luxury tax setup, the keys are essentially to have good scouting, making wise draft picks (best talent available plus filtering out things like high injury risks, mental or personality issues you feel you can't deal with, skills that won't translate to the NBA, etc.), don't waste your money without being too cheap, don't be afraid to spend your money without being stupid, tweak the roster based on how the pieces fit not just on pure talent, foster a winning culture from top to bottom in the organization & team, hire a coach who makes sense and keeps the respect of his players, and then basically hope for the best.

    That's just about all you can do, I think.

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

      Originally posted by Trader Joe View Post
      Last team to win a title from directly tanking....maybe the Heat? One team in the past 20 years? And it is the generally accepted way to do it Vnzla? Is that what you are selling?

      I disagree, if anything the flavor of the month right now is to horde cap space or assets for big signings or trades.
      More than one team, some teams have also used tanking as a way to get high draft picks so they can flip them for other pieces and veterans, Boston is one example, they flipped some picks and players that were high draft picks to get KG and Ray, I'm not sure but I think Detroit did the same thing.(2 teams)

      San Antonio tanked for Duncan and once they got their one piece their front office was smart enough to build around him. (3 teams)

      Lakers are the Lakers so they get whoever they want.

      Again just because some teams suck at drafting or they suck at surrounding their number one pick with good players(Cleveland) doesn't mean that tanking is not the better way to go, tanking is not even about only the 1st overall pick either, I wanted the Pacers to tank for EJ few years ago and I knew that he was not going to be the 1st pick overall.
      @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

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      • #63
        Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

        If by tanking for Duncan you mean the Spurs benefited from David Robinson missing pretty much the whole season then I guess that is tanking, but in reality the team that tanked that year for Duncan was famously Boston who lost the lottery.

        Boston was a really bad team those years they were up high for assets that eventually became KG and Ray.

        Detroit never tanked from my knowledge but Kstat can correct me if he disagrees.


        Comment


        • #64
          Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

          If you guys are going to go in circles on this, you might as well start by laying out your individual definitions of the verb "tank" to see how much you are or are not on the same page in the first place.

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

            Originally posted by MAStamper View Post
            If you guys are going to go in circles on this, you might as well start by laying out your individual definitions of the verb "tank" to see how much you are or are not on the same page in the first place.
            Intentionally losing games? I don't know. My one issue is I just don't think there's any hard evidence that proves tanking is the way to go. For every positive "tanking" story, Vnzla has produced, even if we accept them as tanking, there are about 5 stories of tanking never ever working.

            I think Vnzla would argue the Clippers tanked for Gordon, so ok tanking got them Chris Paul, of course let's ignore the fact it only took them 20 years of sucking to get someone like him.


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            • #66
              Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

              Originally posted by Trader Joe View Post
              Intentionally losing games? I don't know. My one issue is I just don't think there's any hard evidence that proves tanking is the way to go. For every positive "tanking" story, Vnzla has produced, even if we accept them as tanking, there are about 5 stories of tanking never ever working.

              I think Vnzla would argue the Clippers tanked for Gordon, so ok tanking got them Chris Paul, of course let's ignore the fact it only took them 20 years of sucking to get someone like him.
              You believe that "tanking" is getting the 1st overall pick I don't, that is the difference.

              edit: The Clippers have a clown as an owner and the Clippers are good right now because they got Blake and other pieces that they were able to trade for CP3 because ...... they were tanking.
              Last edited by vnzla81; 02-06-2013, 02:21 PM.
              @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

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              • #67
                Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

                Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                You believe that "tanking" is getting the 1st overall pick I don't, that is the difference.
                No I don't believe that at all. The Clippers, Wizards, Grizzlies, Bulls from 98-2008, Warriors, etc. have made plenty of terrible picks in the top 10 as well. It's not as simple as just getting in the top 10, you must scout. You can get talent late in the draft. The Spurs are proof of this.

                Ok so you pick in the top 10 for 15 straight years, you might hit pay dirt once on a guy who can lead you to a title. IMO that is not the most efficient way to create a winning team. You can be a middle of the road team and make the jump to a contender a lot easier IMO.


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                • #68
                  Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

                  Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                  You believe that "tanking" is getting the 1st overall pick I don't, that is the difference.

                  edit: The Clippers have a clown as an owner and the Clippers are good right now because they got Blake and other pieces that they were able to trade for CP3 because ...... they were tanking.
                  Great the Clippers built one competitive team in a 30 year period of tanking. Congratulations.


                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

                    Originally posted by Trader Joe View Post
                    No I don't believe that at all. The Clippers, Wizards, Grizzlies, Bulls from 98-2008, Warriors, etc. have made plenty of terrible picks in the top 10 as well. It's not as simple as just getting in the top 10, you must scout. You can get talent late in the draft. The Spurs are proof of this.

                    Ok so you pick in the top 10 for 15 straight years, you might hit pay dirt once on a guy who can lead you to a title. IMO that is not the most efficient way to create a winning team. You can be a middle of the road team and make the jump to a contender a lot easier IMO.
                    If the Spurs don't tank and get somebody else instead of Duncan because "they are proud and they rather be mediocre" they don't win a championship, and yes the Spurs have done a good job in the draft by getting Manu and Parker but if you look at their draft history after that they have done a decent job but nothing amazing.

                    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...SAS/draft.html


                    By the way, if the Spurs go into rebuilding mode I expect them to tank once again.
                    @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

                      Originally posted by Trader Joe View Post
                      If by tanking for Duncan you mean the Spurs benefited from David Robinson missing pretty much the whole season then I guess that is tanking, but in reality the team that tanked that year for Duncan was famously Boston who lost the lottery.

                      Boston was a really bad team those years they were up high for assets that eventually became KG and Ray.

                      Detroit never tanked from my knowledge but Kstat can correct me if he disagrees.
                      We tanked once(1994) to get Grant Hill. It was a textbook tanking job, too.

                      It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

                      Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
                      Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
                      NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

                        Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                        More than one team, some teams have also used tanking as a way to get high draft picks so they can flip them for other pieces and veterans, Boston is one example, they flipped some picks and players that were high draft picks to get KG and Ray, I'm not sure but I think Detroit did the same thing.(2 teams)

                        San Antonio tanked for Duncan and once they got their one piece their front office was smart enough to build around him. (3 teams)

                        Lakers are the Lakers so they get whoever they want.

                        Again just because some teams suck at drafting or they suck at surrounding their number one pick with good players(Cleveland) doesn't mean that tanking is not the better way to go, tanking is not even about only the 1st overall pick either, I wanted the Pacers to tank for EJ few years ago and I knew that he was not going to be the 1st pick overall.
                        I'm not sure how accurate you are there, I would have to look some of that up and I don't have the time as I'm on lunch. However. I do get what your saying but for the most part. A team is going to tank to get as high of picks and as many extra picks as possible in order to build a great team and those attempts fail much more then a team that actually gets a championship game.

                        We are entering the "god of tanking" in Cleveland right now and it will be very interesting how things unfold there. If I was a betting man, I would bet against the Cavs. If they fail in the next 4 years to produce, then we can all declare tanking as a failure, hands down with no arguments. Cavs has had and will have:
                        2011 1 & 4
                        2012 4 & 17
                        2013 Cavs, Heat, Lakers and Kings 1st rnd picks and Cavs & Magics 2nd rnd pick.
                        2014 Cavs 1st rnd pick and Cavs, Magics and Grizzlies 2nd rnd pick.
                        2015 Cavs, Heat & Grizzlies 1st rnd picks and Cavs 2nd rnd pick.

                        That's a 12 man roster in 5 years of 1st rnd picks. And somehow, I feel they will screw it all up!
                        Last edited by Pacer Fan; 02-06-2013, 02:45 PM.
                        Garbage players get 1st round picks, (WTF)! All of the NBA must hate the Pacers! LOL

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

                          Maybe I missed this, but is tanking to you intentionally losing games or just sucking? Some teams just suck. They don't have to try to lose.
                          Passion. Pride. Patience. Pacers

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

                            Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                            If the Spurs don't tank and get somebody else instead of Duncan because "they are proud and they rather be mediocre" they don't win a championship, and yes the Spurs have done a good job in the draft by getting Manu and Parker but if you look at their draft history after that they have done a decent job but nothing amazing.

                            http://www.basketball-reference.com/...SAS/draft.html


                            By the way, if the Spurs go into rebuilding mode I expect them to tank once again.
                            Again the Spurs got Duncan because Robinson broke his foot and missed like 70 games. And they suffered several other key injuries is my memory as well.
                            If that is "tanking" in your mind so be it, but when your best player (by a large margin on the Spurs at the time) misses pretty much the entire season to a serious injury it's tough for me to endorse that as a good way to build a team.


                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

                              Originally posted by Kstat View Post
                              We tanked once(1994) to get Grant Hill. It was a textbook tanking job, too.
                              That was one I had in mind. I guess Grant did end up landing you Ben Wallace but that was however many years later so again, not a foolproof way to build.


                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

                                Originally posted by Trader Joe View Post
                                That was one I had in mind. I guess Grant did end up landing you Ben Wallace but that was however many years later so again, not a foolproof way to build.
                                No, and Joe was a part of that team, so I think he also understands.

                                It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

                                Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
                                Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
                                NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

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