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Thread: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Miami?
    They didn't tank to win that title...lol
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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I hope nobody follows the "Pacers way", that was painful to watch, the "Pacers way" is also hard to pull it off, the Bucks are trying to do the same thing and they are just mediocre and The Bobcats tried and failed.
    What's funny is I would use the Bucks as an example that being a bottom feeder just leads to more bottom feeding. Remember these guys actually won the lottery and look what they have to show for it. Jennings is also a lottery pick. However these guys have drafted horribly as well over the years so I just can't see your example of how they are trying to duplicate what we have done.

    Don't get me wrong if the Pacers flame out in the first round or even if they lose in the second round and next season don't bring the noise then this will all be a puff of smoke.

    Even if it doesn't change the M.O.'s of any of the leagues officials I would kind of hope that maybe just maybe some of the people who think that tanking is the only way might be more open to an alternative approach. I've said it many times before there is no one sure fire way to build a team because if there was everybody would do it.


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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    In all honesty, we are spoiled, we went through about 4 or 5 years of being terrible and we act like we wandered the desert for years. Compared to Clippers fans, Cavs fans, Grizzlies fans, Charlotte fans, Orlando fans, I could go on, but I'll stop, the point is we're really actually pretty lucky. We had 15+ years straight of playoff caliber teams following by 5 or so years of being down. That's not too bad at all in the sports world.

    Washington

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer Fan View Post
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    I didn't say they did win the title.
    How else should I read this? lol You said "And the last team to win a championship that tank (other then OKC) is who. "





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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan View Post
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    Washington
    That is exactly right. Everytime somebody say's the Thunder to me I just reply the Wizards. How many years has that team been in the lottery?


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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    That is exactly right. Everytime somebody say's the Thunder to me I just reply the Wizards. How many years has that team been in the lottery?
    How many years did Chicago tank and come up with nothing? 10? Then they were decent and lucked into the 1 and got Rose. Tanking is the dumbest strategy in the sports world when there is a lottery.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    What's funny is I would use the Bucks as an example that being a bottom feeder just leads to more bottom feeding. Remember these guys actually won the lottery and look what they have to show for it.
    To be fair their number one pick had a horrible injury.

    Jennings is also a lottery pick.
    Jennings would have been a Pacer if it was not because the Pacers decided to win that last meaningless game, Jennings is not bad, he is pretty good.

    However these guys have drafted horribly as well over the years so I just can't see your example of how they are trying to duplicate what we have done.
    By trying to duplicate what the Pacers have done I mean by staying mediocre and trying to stay mediocre as long as possible, I mean what is the point of signing Dunleavy, Gooden and other old players? they are just happy to make it to the playoffs.

    Don't get me wrong if the Pacers flame out in the first round or even if they lose in the second round and next season don't bring the noise then this will all be a puff of smoke.
    Yep that could happen.

    Even if it doesn't change the M.O.'s of any of the leagues officials I would kind of hope that maybe just maybe some of the people who think that tanking is the only way might be more open to an alternative approach. I've said it many times before there is no one sure fire way to build a team because if there was everybody would do it.
    Tanking is what people are doing now and is the way to go teams have done it forever, unless the NBA decides to change the drafting process I don't see it changing anytime soon.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Last team to win a title from directly tanking....maybe the Heat? One team in the past 20 years? And it is the generally accepted way to do it Vnzla? Is that what you are selling?

    I disagree, if anything the flavor of the month right now is to horde cap space or assets for big signings or trades.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer Fan View Post
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    And the last team to win a championship that tank (other then OKC) is who. Teams that that tank continue to tank. They are the bottom feeders. Detroit put that team together thru trades and FA. Cleveland tanked and had the best player in the last decade for 7 years and only won a ecf champion. It's not about tanking, It's about running a FO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    How else should I read this? lol You said "And the last team to win a championship that tank (other then OKC) is who. "




    Well, the one liner you pasted of my quote, I see what your saying. But in the full context I wrote (pasted above), I was referring to OKC Championship and Cleveland Championship which is referring to ECF and WCF which are championships and I referred the Cavs as ecf champions (I meant the same for OKC). My bad if I wasn't detailed enough. I take things for granted on here sometimes as so many of us know so much about the NBA.
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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer Fan View Post
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    Well, the one liner you pasted of my quote, I see what your saying. But in the full context I wrote (pasted above), I was referring to OKC Championship and Cleveland Championship which is referring to ECF and WCF which are championships and I referred the Cavs as ecf champions (I meant the same for OKC). My bad if I wasn't detailed enough. I take things for granted on here sometimes as so many of us know so much about the NBA.
    LOL I see what you were trying to say, just came off as odd since the topic seemed to be NBA titles.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Especially with the new luxury tax setup, the keys are essentially to have good scouting, making wise draft picks (best talent available plus filtering out things like high injury risks, mental or personality issues you feel you can't deal with, skills that won't translate to the NBA, etc.), don't waste your money without being too cheap, don't be afraid to spend your money without being stupid, tweak the roster based on how the pieces fit not just on pure talent, foster a winning culture from top to bottom in the organization & team, hire a coach who makes sense and keeps the respect of his players, and then basically hope for the best.

    That's just about all you can do, I think.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Last team to win a title from directly tanking....maybe the Heat? One team in the past 20 years? And it is the generally accepted way to do it Vnzla? Is that what you are selling?

    I disagree, if anything the flavor of the month right now is to horde cap space or assets for big signings or trades.
    More than one team, some teams have also used tanking as a way to get high draft picks so they can flip them for other pieces and veterans, Boston is one example, they flipped some picks and players that were high draft picks to get KG and Ray, I'm not sure but I think Detroit did the same thing.(2 teams)

    San Antonio tanked for Duncan and once they got their one piece their front office was smart enough to build around him. (3 teams)

    Lakers are the Lakers so they get whoever they want.

    Again just because some teams suck at drafting or they suck at surrounding their number one pick with good players(Cleveland) doesn't mean that tanking is not the better way to go, tanking is not even about only the 1st overall pick either, I wanted the Pacers to tank for EJ few years ago and I knew that he was not going to be the 1st pick overall.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    If by tanking for Duncan you mean the Spurs benefited from David Robinson missing pretty much the whole season then I guess that is tanking, but in reality the team that tanked that year for Duncan was famously Boston who lost the lottery.

    Boston was a really bad team those years they were up high for assets that eventually became KG and Ray.

    Detroit never tanked from my knowledge but Kstat can correct me if he disagrees.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    If you guys are going to go in circles on this, you might as well start by laying out your individual definitions of the verb "tank" to see how much you are or are not on the same page in the first place.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    If you guys are going to go in circles on this, you might as well start by laying out your individual definitions of the verb "tank" to see how much you are or are not on the same page in the first place.
    Intentionally losing games? I don't know. My one issue is I just don't think there's any hard evidence that proves tanking is the way to go. For every positive "tanking" story, Vnzla has produced, even if we accept them as tanking, there are about 5 stories of tanking never ever working.

    I think Vnzla would argue the Clippers tanked for Gordon, so ok tanking got them Chris Paul, of course let's ignore the fact it only took them 20 years of sucking to get someone like him.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Intentionally losing games? I don't know. My one issue is I just don't think there's any hard evidence that proves tanking is the way to go. For every positive "tanking" story, Vnzla has produced, even if we accept them as tanking, there are about 5 stories of tanking never ever working.

    I think Vnzla would argue the Clippers tanked for Gordon, so ok tanking got them Chris Paul, of course let's ignore the fact it only took them 20 years of sucking to get someone like him.
    You believe that "tanking" is getting the 1st overall pick I don't, that is the difference.

    edit: The Clippers have a clown as an owner and the Clippers are good right now because they got Blake and other pieces that they were able to trade for CP3 because ...... they were tanking.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 02-06-2013 at 01:21 PM.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    You believe that "tanking" is getting the 1st overall pick I don't, that is the difference.
    No I don't believe that at all. The Clippers, Wizards, Grizzlies, Bulls from 98-2008, Warriors, etc. have made plenty of terrible picks in the top 10 as well. It's not as simple as just getting in the top 10, you must scout. You can get talent late in the draft. The Spurs are proof of this.

    Ok so you pick in the top 10 for 15 straight years, you might hit pay dirt once on a guy who can lead you to a title. IMO that is not the most efficient way to create a winning team. You can be a middle of the road team and make the jump to a contender a lot easier IMO.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    You believe that "tanking" is getting the 1st overall pick I don't, that is the difference.

    edit: The Clippers have a clown as an owner and the Clippers are good right now because they got Blake and other pieces that they were able to trade for CP3 because ...... they were tanking.
    Great the Clippers built one competitive team in a 30 year period of tanking. Congratulations.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    No I don't believe that at all. The Clippers, Wizards, Grizzlies, Bulls from 98-2008, Warriors, etc. have made plenty of terrible picks in the top 10 as well. It's not as simple as just getting in the top 10, you must scout. You can get talent late in the draft. The Spurs are proof of this.

    Ok so you pick in the top 10 for 15 straight years, you might hit pay dirt once on a guy who can lead you to a title. IMO that is not the most efficient way to create a winning team. You can be a middle of the road team and make the jump to a contender a lot easier IMO.
    If the Spurs don't tank and get somebody else instead of Duncan because "they are proud and they rather be mediocre" they don't win a championship, and yes the Spurs have done a good job in the draft by getting Manu and Parker but if you look at their draft history after that they have done a decent job but nothing amazing.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...SAS/draft.html


    By the way, if the Spurs go into rebuilding mode I expect them to tank once again.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    If by tanking for Duncan you mean the Spurs benefited from David Robinson missing pretty much the whole season then I guess that is tanking, but in reality the team that tanked that year for Duncan was famously Boston who lost the lottery.

    Boston was a really bad team those years they were up high for assets that eventually became KG and Ray.

    Detroit never tanked from my knowledge but Kstat can correct me if he disagrees.
    We tanked once(1994) to get Grant Hill. It was a textbook tanking job, too.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    More than one team, some teams have also used tanking as a way to get high draft picks so they can flip them for other pieces and veterans, Boston is one example, they flipped some picks and players that were high draft picks to get KG and Ray, I'm not sure but I think Detroit did the same thing.(2 teams)

    San Antonio tanked for Duncan and once they got their one piece their front office was smart enough to build around him. (3 teams)

    Lakers are the Lakers so they get whoever they want.

    Again just because some teams suck at drafting or they suck at surrounding their number one pick with good players(Cleveland) doesn't mean that tanking is not the better way to go, tanking is not even about only the 1st overall pick either, I wanted the Pacers to tank for EJ few years ago and I knew that he was not going to be the 1st pick overall.
    I'm not sure how accurate you are there, I would have to look some of that up and I don't have the time as I'm on lunch. However. I do get what your saying but for the most part. A team is going to tank to get as high of picks and as many extra picks as possible in order to build a great team and those attempts fail much more then a team that actually gets a championship game.

    We are entering the "god of tanking" in Cleveland right now and it will be very interesting how things unfold there. If I was a betting man, I would bet against the Cavs. If they fail in the next 4 years to produce, then we can all declare tanking as a failure, hands down with no arguments. Cavs has had and will have:
    2011 1 & 4
    2012 4 & 17
    2013 Cavs, Heat, Lakers and Kings 1st rnd picks and Cavs & Magics 2nd rnd pick.
    2014 Cavs 1st rnd pick and Cavs, Magics and Grizzlies 2nd rnd pick.
    2015 Cavs, Heat & Grizzlies 1st rnd picks and Cavs 2nd rnd pick.

    That's a 12 man roster in 5 years of 1st rnd picks. And somehow, I feel they will screw it all up!
    Last edited by Pacer Fan; 02-06-2013 at 01:45 PM.
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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Maybe I missed this, but is tanking to you intentionally losing games or just sucking? Some teams just suck. They don't have to try to lose.
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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    If the Spurs don't tank and get somebody else instead of Duncan because "they are proud and they rather be mediocre" they don't win a championship, and yes the Spurs have done a good job in the draft by getting Manu and Parker but if you look at their draft history after that they have done a decent job but nothing amazing.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...SAS/draft.html


    By the way, if the Spurs go into rebuilding mode I expect them to tank once again.
    Again the Spurs got Duncan because Robinson broke his foot and missed like 70 games. And they suffered several other key injuries is my memory as well.
    If that is "tanking" in your mind so be it, but when your best player (by a large margin on the Spurs at the time) misses pretty much the entire season to a serious injury it's tough for me to endorse that as a good way to build a team.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    We tanked once(1994) to get Grant Hill. It was a textbook tanking job, too.
    That was one I had in mind. I guess Grant did end up landing you Ben Wallace but that was however many years later so again, not a foolproof way to build.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    That was one I had in mind. I guess Grant did end up landing you Ben Wallace but that was however many years later so again, not a foolproof way to build.
    No, and Joe was a part of that team, so I think he also understands.

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