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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    What happens if the Pacers actually advance the either the E.C. finals or even the NBA finals? No, I知 not asking if we will all be rejoicing and dancing in the streets (which we better be).

    No I want to know will the paradigm shift in the way people think NBA teams in general and small market teams in particular have to be built?

    Whether a lot of us old timers like it or not the absolute top model for building an NBA franchise now is to tank and the Oklahoma City Thunder are always held as the bright and shining example of dumping salary, bottoming out & being rewarded with high draft picks who turn out to be absolute blue chip players who will then lead your team from the bottom to the top and will do so for a couple of years until you need to dump them and start over again. BTW this is not just fans or even sports writers who like to stir up things on twitter who think this way. I have heard several respected NBA people both former coaches and players who have been on NBA saying that this is the model to use.

    What happens if we prove that wrong? I知 not saying we will and perhaps I知 too high after so many home victories that I知 losing perspective but humor me.

    The Pacers never tanked, at least not on purpose. Satan did but in his mind he was trying to win and when he finally gave in to not trying to win every game they actually started to win because they got away from his horrible.Ok, we all know where I知 going here so let痴 not make this about him.

    Think about this our highest draft pick was # 10, now it can be argued that he is our best player so there is logic in still saying the higher the pick the better the chance of getting a good player. But again, he was # 10 not # 1 or even # 5.

    When Danny comes back both he & Roy were drafted at #17. Right now our starting shooting guard is a second round pick and I wouldn稚 trade him for most 1st round picks from his draft.

    Our first big off of the bench was selected at 13. Our current first wing off of the bench was this year痴 2nd round draft pick.

    We parlayed one first round draft pick into our starting point guard & in a rare occurrence this trade actually benefitted both teams.

    We traded away a surplus point guard who probably was never going to start here again and was probably not going to be happy being a backup long term for our back up center.

    We did shed salary mostly by just letting it expire and with our available money we did make a splash in the free agent market and signed a player coming off of injury to fill a need, however although he was at one point an all star prior to here he was never considered a marquee player because he was just a solid fundamental player. In other words we didn稚 use our free agent money to sign the big marquee sexy player that everyone wanted us to sign (not that there was one available but I remember many people saying just save the money for the next season).

    Of course that non-sexy fundamental signing only turned out to be both the biggest bargain in Pacers history is quite honestly is the best free agent signing in NBA Pacers history. I just can稚 bring myself to say most important because Byron Scott changed our entire culture the day he arrived here. But I値l say this we get to the E.C. finals or beyond & I値l probably change my tune about that as well.

    Yea I know this is all pretty premature but still look at where we are. Right now we are the talk of the league and not just because we are winning. We are winning and we are looking good doing it, we are entertaining to watch (at least according to Chris Webber & Steve Smith on NBA tv) and most importantly other than West and soon to be Danny none of our key players are on the wrong side of 30. To put it differently unless something goes terribly wrong we have a few years to be really competitive and if George & Stephenson keep growing then that window could be quite large.

    But with all of that in mind is it possible that teams may start to go another route and try the Pacers way of building through solid draft choices and trying to build a winning culture?

    Or will it always be 努e must tank to succeed?


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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Hire JOB. Extend JOB. Fire JOB. 'ship.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    Hire JOB. Extend JOB. Fire JOB. 'ship.
    It worked for the Celtics. Paul Pierce was #10. Al Jeff was #15. The picks they traded for their big 3 were Randy Foye and Jeff Green.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    I don't know.

    I can tell you I'm convinced without a doubt that the Pacers are going to make the Finals though. I don't think the Heat will be able to beat them once Grangers back. We have the better defense. We also have a starting five that has been killing teams scoring the ball. They're getting better every day as Hill learns point, PG continues to grow as a scorer, Lance is going to be a killer 6th man, and West is simply not the same guy he was last year.

    Put Battier on him in the playoffs and West is going to make them regret it.

    I've come full circle. The Pacers are a powerhouse. We won't see it yet until Grangers back. But yeah. Grangers already playing in full speed practices. He's injury isn't an ACL. It's a discomfort deal, and presumably since he's practicing the pain is gone. (otherwise he wouldn't practice). He has an old man game anyway. How can it suffer?

    The Pacers are going to start 4 allstars in the playoffs. No other team can say that.
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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    I don't have a lot of time to really get into it, but I really think the new CBA is, eventually, going to drastically change the way teams are constructed and the amount of parity. It's also going to lead to shorter contracts and a lot more player movement, which'll be a shame and I think may hurt some fan interest. Next CBA eliminate max deals entirely and let true superstars make what they deserve and we got a whole new league that's much better. Lebron said as much, and hate the guy all you want, he's right. Lebron's thoughts on labor negotiations of late have genuinely impressed me relative to the seeming non-interest his peers seem to have for the most part. He's done a great job learning the business of the sport.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    ILebron's thoughts on labor negotiations of late have genuinely impressed me relative to the seeming non-interest his peers seem to have for the most part. He's done a great job learning the business of the sport.
    I'd like to know more about this.

    He's done a couple of bonehead things, but other than that, I have to say, he may be one of the most talented human beings (non just including basketball) on the planet.
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    撤eople talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he痴 really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me. 有arry Brown

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    What happens if the Pacers actually advance the either the E.C. finals or even the NBA finals? No, I知 not asking if we will all be rejoicing and dancing in the streets (which we better be).

    No I want to know will the paradigm shift in the way people think NBA teams in general and small market teams in particular have to be built?

    Whether a lot of us old timers like it or not the absolute top model for building an NBA franchise now is to tank and the Oklahoma City Thunder are always held as the bright and shining example of dumping salary, bottoming out & being rewarded with high draft picks who turn out to be absolute blue chip players who will then lead your team from the bottom to the top and will do so for a couple of years until you need to dump them and start over again. BTW this is not just fans or even sports writers who like to stir up things on twitter who think this way. I have heard several respected NBA people both former coaches and players who have been on NBA saying that this is the model to use.

    What happens if we prove that wrong? I知 not saying we will and perhaps I知 too high after so many home victories that I知 losing perspective but humor me.

    The Pacers never tanked, at least not on purpose. Satan did but in his mind he was trying to win and when he finally gave in to not trying to win every game they actually started to win because they got away from his horrible.Ok, we all know where I知 going here so let痴 not make this about him.

    Think about this our highest draft pick was # 10, now it can be argued that he is our best player so there is logic in still saying the higher the pick the better the chance of getting a good player. But again, he was # 10 not # 1 or even # 5.

    When Danny comes back both he & Roy were drafted at #17. Right now our starting shooting guard is a second round pick and I wouldn稚 trade him for most 1st round picks from his draft.

    Our first big off of the bench was selected at 13. Our current first wing off of the bench was this year痴 2nd round draft pick.

    We parlayed one first round draft pick into our starting point guard & in a rare occurrence this trade actually benefitted both teams.

    We traded away a surplus point guard who probably was never going to start here again and was probably not going to be happy being a backup long term for our back up center.

    We did shed salary mostly by just letting it expire and with our available money we did make a splash in the free agent market and signed a player coming off of injury to fill a need, however although he was at one point an all star prior to here he was never considered a marquee player because he was just a solid fundamental player. In other words we didn稚 use our free agent money to sign the big marquee sexy player that everyone wanted us to sign (not that there was one available but I remember many people saying just save the money for the next season).

    Of course that non-sexy fundamental signing only turned out to be both the biggest bargain in Pacers history is quite honestly is the best free agent signing in NBA Pacers history. I just can稚 bring myself to say most important because Byron Scott changed our entire culture the day he arrived here. But I値l say this we get to the E.C. finals or beyond & I値l probably change my tune about that as well.

    Yea I know this is all pretty premature but still look at where we are. Right now we are the talk of the league and not just because we are winning. We are winning and we are looking good doing it, we are entertaining to watch (at least according to Chris Webber & Steve Smith on NBA tv) and most importantly other than West and soon to be Danny none of our key players are on the wrong side of 30. To put it differently unless something goes terribly wrong we have a few years to be really competitive and if George & Stephenson keep growing then that window could be quite large.

    But with all of that in mind is it possible that teams may start to go another route and try the Pacers way of building through solid draft choices and trying to build a winning culture?

    Or will it always be 努e must tank to succeed?
    The pistons did it long before the pacers did, and were the dominant team out of the east over the last decade. It changed nothing. So...no.

    In addition, the OKC model...please. So you're telling me the best formula is to land three consecutive top-five picks, and with them select two perennial all stars and a first ballot hall of famer, and then in between snag a borderline all star in the late teens?

    What genius thinks that's an easy formula to copy?
    Last edited by Kstat; 02-06-2013 at 03:48 AM.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    The pistons did it long before the pacers did, and were the dominant team out of the east over the last decade. It changed nothing. So...no.

    In addition, the OKC model...please. So you're telling me the best formula is to land three consecutive top-five picks, and with them select two perennial all stars and a first ballot hall of famer, and then in between snag a borderline all star in the late teens?

    What genius thinks that's an easy formula to copy?
    You haven't perused our trade board in awhile have you? Obviously NBA people understand that this is not easy to duplicate but you would be surprised by the amount of sports writer (even the ones who aren't out to just type words) that think that this is the only way for markets outside L.A. & N.Y. to compete.

    I was going to agree with you about the Pistons until I stopped to think about it. How many of those players were actually drafted by the Pistons?

    Wallace (both of them) came via trade as did Rip Hamilton, was Billups a free agent. Prince was drafted by Detroit. As to the bench I am pretty sure Mike James was part of the Rasheed trade but I'm not sure. I don't remember how Corliss Williamson got there but I know he wasn't drafted by the Pistons. Did you guys draft Okur?

    No, I really don't see that much similarity to the way that we each were built other than the philosophy that there is no true superstar. Now that I can see. But building the team we both have taken different paths & if its any consolation to you, until proven differently your guys version is better.

    I know you can't be talking about the 80's Pistons because Zeke was drafted @ # 2


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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    You haven't perused our trade board in awhile have you? Obviously NBA people understand that this is not easy to duplicate but you would be surprised by the amount of sports writer (even the ones who aren't out to just type words) that think that this is the only way for markets outside L.A. & N.Y. to compete.

    I was going to agree with you about the Pistons until I stopped to think about it. How many of those players were actually drafted by the Pistons?

    Wallace (both of them) came via trade as did Rip Hamilton, was Billups a free agent. Prince was drafted by Detroit. As to the bench I am pretty sure Mike James was part of the Rasheed trade but I'm not sure. I don't remember how Corliss Williamson got there but I know he wasn't drafted by the Pistons. Did you guys draft Okur?

    No, I really don't see that much similarity to the way that we each were built other than the philosophy that there is no true superstar. Now that I can see. But building the team we both have taken different paths & if its any consolation to you, until proven differently your guys version is better.

    I know you can't be talking about the 80's Pistons because Zeke was drafted @ # 2
    I would also add that what the Pistons pulled off was not sustainable. They made great trades and that is just not a formula for consistent long term success IMO. Sure they were good for 5 or so years, but that was about it. Not taking away anything from them, just that they did not draft those players like you pointed out and the deals they made were more of a high risk, high reward, and they paid off, but to think they could makes trades like that that work out that well consistently is unlikely.

    I feel that the Pacer's system is more sustainable. Every year we find talent in the later rounds or with savvy trades. We don't make blockbuster deals, we just make smart little moves. We know how to grow talent and find it on the cheap. That is sustainable and I think we have a higher ceiling and a better offense than that Pistons team. We don't play that ugly of basketball. The Pacers are exciting to watch and PG is going to be a legit superstar. The Pistons never had that and at this point I am getting sick of the comparison because the roots of the teams and the actual teams themselves are nothing alike other than the Pacers have had one of the better defenses in history this year. And as many have pointed out, you should not compare the Pacers to the best defense in history until their numbers are at least comparable.

    We are a more likeable team than those Pistons teams. We have a real chance for something special. If we can win it all this year we could start adding the bandwagon fans we all so despise. But let's face it those bandwagon fans buy tickets and watch games. I think the Pacers in the finals would garner more attention than those old Pistons teams ever would. We are so much more enjoyable to watch. The casual bandwagon fan can really get behind this team if they keep playing like they are at home and can extend that to the road. The Pistons were boring and were a turnoff to the bandwagonners, even though they played fundamentally great basketball.

    So hopefully other teams don't copy what we are doing. But ultimately they will if we win a championship. But still they may not because not one other team I can think of has become a good team the way that the Pacers have. Literally every other good team has high draft picks. That may be the real story here. Is there any other team at all that is a true playoff threat that doesn't have a higher pick than 10 on their team?
    Last edited by Midcoasted; 02-06-2013 at 05:24 AM.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    okay, back up the crazy train...

    Quote Originally Posted by Midcoasted View Post
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    I would also add that what the Pistons pulled off was not sustainable. They made great trades and that is just not a formula for consistent long term success IMO. Sure they were good for 5 or so years, but that was about it.
    that was about it?

    We had a 6-year run that included a championship, two straight conference titles, six 50+win seasons, and five division titles.

    You don't call that "sustaining?"

    You do realize only a handful of NBA teams have ever surpassed that level of excellence, right?

    Not taking away anything from them, just that they did not draft those players like you pointed out and the deals they made were more of a high risk, high reward, and they paid off, but to think they could makes trades like that that work out that well consistently is unlikely.
    uh....the draft/trade/FA ratio is roughly the same for both teams. The Pistons drafted Prince and Okur just like the Pacers drafted George and Stephenson. Moving on....

    That is sustainable and I think we have a higher ceiling and a better offense than that Pistons team. We don't play that ugly of basketball. The Pacers are exciting to watch and PG is going to be a legit superstar. The Pistons never had that and at this point I am getting sick of the comparison because the roots of the teams and the actual teams themselves are nothing alike other than the Pacers have had one of the better defenses in history this year. And as many have pointed out, you should not compare the Pacers to the best defense in history until their numbers are at least comparable.
    okay...reality check...

    First off, the Pacers do play ugly basketball, by NBA standards. There is no pretty way to be 29th in scoring and 2nd in scoring defense. The masses are never going to applaud grind-it-out games. The one guy that commented on loving the Pacers' defensive style of play tonight was Chris Webber, who grew up-guess what-a Pistons fan.

    And yes, I know their offense has been trending upward lately, but winning games 110-100 has never been their strategy.



    We are a more likeable team than those Pistons teams.
    No...you're really not. Nobody is talking about the Pacers outside of Indiana. Unless Paul Goerge becomes the next Kevin Durant/Tim Duncan type superstar, they never will. And George is simply not that kind of player. I'm not saying he will never be a superstar, but he's not as flashy as Durant or Kobe, and will never be a multiple-time MVP like Duncan. He's a star because he's a defensive stopper in addition to a pretty good scorer, and ESPN doesn't love to feature guys like that.

    Unless you mean to say that the Pistons were bad guys and universally resented in contrast to the Pacers' much more likeable bunch of upstanding citizens, in which case...you're still wrong, in both cases. Outside of Indiana, at least.

    I think the Pacers in the finals would garner more attention than those old Pistons teams ever would.
    ...the 2004 finals was the most watched series of the decade...

    Now, you could counter by saying nobody cared about Pistons/Spurs, in which case...you'd be right. Of course, by the same token, there was mass panic over the possibility of Pacers/Spurs in 1999 and Pacers/Blazers in 2000, and that Pacers team was actually an offensive juggernaut.

    We are so much more enjoyable to watch.
    ...you win games by making the other team miss bad shots and hit the floor...so, no. I understand that they are so much more enjoyable to watch from your perspective, but try to take off the Pacer fan hat and take a step back for a second.

    From an outsider's perspective, let me get you prepared for the next 5-6 years:

    1. Fans of big markets are not going to like you.
    2. Fans of the teams you eliminate are not going to like you.
    3. Fans of teams that value offense over defense are going to HATE you.
    4. Unless Paul George about doubles his scoring output to Kobe/TMac/Durant levels, he's never going to be a national media darling. Missed shots aren't sexy.

    When I said you can't compare this Pacers team to the 2004 Pistons, I said that because they hadn't accomplished anything yet. They are absolutely attempting to emulate them, however, albeit in a league that plays at a faster tempo. If they win a championship this way, I'd accept the comparison. Heck, I'd welcome it.

    You're not going to accept this, but the reality is this: The Pacers play in Indiana. The Pacers play a decided physical defense-first philosophy. Neither of those things will endear them nationally. Heck, it's not exactly endearing them locally either. The Pacers haven't been a major draw in Indianapolis since the Bird/Reggie days of free flowing offense and three point shooters at every position.

    I get that you're riding the Pacers high right now, and you can't see how the Pacers won't become the NBA's next great dynasty and loved by all...but that's just not going to happen. The hierarchy doesn't like being disturbed. You're going to knock much bigger names than Paul George out of the playoffs, and casual fans will get annoyed by it (unless it's Miami).

    God forbid you keep Carmelo or Rose out of the finals....the national media will be borderline-offended in the "why am I stuck in Indianapolis covering the NBA finals when I could be spending a week in New York/Chicago" sense.
    Last edited by Kstat; 02-06-2013 at 07:24 AM.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    okay, back up the crazy train...



    that was about it?

    We had a 6-year run that included a championship, two straight conference titles, six 50+win seasons, and five division titles.

    You don't call that "sustaining?"

    You do realize only a handful of NBA teams have ever surpassed that level of excellence, right?



    uh....the draft/trade/FA ratio is roughly the same for both teams. The Pistons drafted Prince and Okur just like the Pacers drafted George and Stephenson. Moving on....



    okay...reality check...

    First off, the Pacers do play ugly basketball, by NBA standards. There is no pretty way to be 29th in scoring and 2nd in scoring defense. The masses are never going to applaud grind-it-out games. The one guy that commented on loving the Pacers' defensive style of play tonight was Chris Webber, who grew up-guess what-a Pistons fan.

    And yes, I know their offense has been trending upward lately, but winning games 110-100 has never been their strategy.





    No...you're really not. Nobody is talking about the Pacers outside of Indiana. Unless Paul Goerge becomes the next Kevin Durant/Tim Duncan type superstar, they never will. And George is simply not that kind of player. I'm not saying he will never be a superstar, but he's not as flashy as Durant or Kobe, and will never be a multiple-time MVP like Duncan. He's a star because he's a defensive stopper in addition to a pretty good scorer, and ESPN doesn't love to feature guys like that.

    Unless you mean to say that the Pistons were bad guys and universally resented in contrast to the Pacers' much more likeable bunch of upstanding citizens, in which case...you're still wrong, in both cases. Outside of Indiana, at least.



    ...the 2004 finals was the most watched series of the decade...

    Now, you could counter by saying nobody cared about Pistons/Spurs, in which case...you'd be right. Of course, by the same token, there was mass panic over the possibility of Pacers/Spurs in 1999 and Pacers/Blazers in 2000, and that Pacers team was actually an offensive juggernaut.



    ...you win games by making the other team miss bad shots and hit the floor...so, no. I understand that they are so much more enjoyable to watch from your perspective, but try to take off the Pacer fan hat and take a step back for a second.

    From an outsider's perspective, let me get you prepared for the next 5-6 years:

    1. Fans of big markets are not going to like you.
    2. Fans of the teams you eliminate are not going to like you.
    3. Fans of teams that value offense over defense are going to HATE you.
    4. Unless Paul George about doubles his scoring output to Kobe/TMac/Durant levels, he's never going to be a national media darling. Missed shots aren't sexy.

    When I said you can't compare this Pacers team to the 2004 Pistons, I said that because they hadn't accomplished anything yet. They are absolutely attempting to emulate them, however, albeit in a league that plays at a faster tempo. If they win a championship this way, I'd accept the comparison. Heck, I'd welcome it.

    You're not going to accept this, but the reality is this: The Pacers play in Indiana. The Pacers play a decided physical defense-first philosophy. Neither of those things will endear them nationally. Heck, it's not exactly endearing them locally either. The Pacers haven't been a major draw in Indianapolis since the Bird/Reggie days of free flowing offense and three point shooters at every position.

    I get that you're riding the Pacers high right now, and you can't see how the Pacers won't become the NBA's next great dynasty and loved by all...but that's just not going to happen. The hierarchy doesn't like being disturbed. You're going to knock much bigger names than Paul George out of the playoffs, and casual fans will get annoyed by it (unless it's Miami).

    God forbid you keep Carmelo or Rose out of the finals....the national media will be borderline-offended in the "why am I stuck in Indianapolis covering the NBA finals when I could be spending a week in New York/Chicago" sense.
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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    The pistons did it long before the pacers did, and were the dominant team out of the east over the last decade. It changed nothing. So...no.

    In addition, the OKC model...please. So you're telling me the best formula is to land three consecutive top-five picks, and with them select two perennial all stars and a first ballot hall of famer, and then in between snag a borderline all star in the late teens?

    What genius thinks that's an easy formula to copy?
    Tanking will always be the #1 option for the majority of the teams trying to build that are also in the small market. Teams will always bank on young players that have a cheaper contract yet have a really nice potential of ending up an all-star, or maybe a superstar. It may not always hit but it has a proven track record of success in recent history, from Duncan (SA) to LeBron (CLE) all the way to Durant (OKC). The Pacers case will always be a special case simply because it's not that easy to get above average to decent players in the draft within the mid teens and mid-2nd round consecutively. A team can get get lucky in 1 draft getting a potential star in picks 10-20, but on the next 3 draft the other mid picks are D-league level. The only team that has been that good and lucky at the same time in building a great team through non-lottery picks is San Antonio (well, having a Tim Duncan helps in the overall team performance).

    As for the Pistons, I agree that they were built without a legitimate superstar similar to Pacers but they are different in terms of how their elite level team was formed. Every player on that starting 5 was obtained through solid trades/free agent signings except for Prince. On the other hand, only Hill and West were non-Pacer draftees formed through trades and the majority were Pacers-drafted.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by 15th parallel View Post
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    As for the Pistons, I agree that they were built without a legitimate superstar similar to Pacers but they are different in terms of how their elite level team was formed. Every player on that starting 5 was obtained through solid trades/free agent signings except for Prince. On the other hand, only Hill and West were non-Pacer draftees formed through trades and the majority were Pacers-drafted.
    Hibbert was a obtained via trade on draft night. Brilliant deal, but the Pacers were not taking him 11th.

    In fact, Hibbert wasn't even the highest draft pick they obtained in that deal.
    Last edited by Kstat; 02-06-2013 at 06:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    I don't think there's a Pacers way of building.

    What Larry did is extremely difficult. Having tons of patience, drafting guys that are winners/solid basketball players/good people/team-oriented players, and building a team that is sufficient in many categories (e.g. length, size, shooting, speed, iq) but weak in few with only one top-10 draft pick, and that is a #10 pick, is nearly impossible.

    Who here thought we could do this with a #10, #13, #17, #17 and #40 while signing a #18 and trading for a #26? Maybe Warren Buffett reads PD, but I doubt there are many others.

    *edit*- Vogel and staff deserve a lot of credit too. I knew we had playoff caliber talent even when O'Brien was here, but it still takes a good staff to recognize how to effectively use players, and an even better staff to make a team that is greater than the sum of its parts.
    Last edited by imawhat; 02-06-2013 at 11:08 AM.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    The pistons did it long before the pacers did, and were the dominant team out of the east over the last decade. It changed nothing. So...no.

    In addition, the OKC model...please. So you're telling me the best formula is to land three consecutive top-five picks, and with them select two perennial all stars and a first ballot hall of famer, and then in between snag a borderline all star in the late teens?

    What genius thinks that's an easy formula to copy?
    He isn't necessarily saying that you have to land 3 top 5 picks and tank year in and year out, he is saying that it does however at least require 1 tank season. And I have heard many former GMs in this league for small market teams such as Kevin McHale, talk about how you can not win an NBA championship with out an NBA super star no not just a bunch of All Stars but a legit Super Star a Hall of Fame worthy player. And let's face it these caliber players don't come to cities like Indianapolis on free agent deals, so that leaves only 2 options to get the perceived Super Star that you must have to win the championship either A. trade for one which has been done in recent years but pretty much only to big market teams with other Super Stars already there such as Dwight to LA, Melo to NY (Amare at the time was considered a Super Star and people thought it meant they would get CP3 as well), but again these scenarios don't seem to be open to small market teams such as Pacers. So lastly it comes down to the draft and this is where small market teams have their one chance, Cleveland got their chance with LeBron till he broke their hearts because of this, OKC has been getting their chances now, SA got a million chances thanks to Duncan and amazing coaching, Chicago (while I know they are not small market they were also stuck in a rut neither landing high named FAs or trading for them got unstuck with the 1st overall pick) changed their chances of title contention with Rose. So yes there is a ton of merit to this argument that the only way to win in the NBA in a small market city is to do it by first losing and losing a lot, Detroit Pistons are literally the only exception to this rule in a very long time every other championship team in recent memory has had a Hall of Fame caliper player on the roster, so the Pacers are trying to join the very short list of just the Pistons. For a long time as a Pacer fan when the going got rough I was legitimately upset with Indiana for staying mediocre thinking along these same lines thinking that the mediocrity would never get us anywhere other than maybe some playoff trips but Larry did a phenomenal job of drafting and landing players that are much more skilled than where they were drafted. You could argue that we actually did indeed follow this model of losing to win when at 10 we landed Paul George now at pick 10 there usually is not an opportunity to land many players with top 5 pick talent but I think it is evident that if there was a redraft today that Paul would be a top 5 pick probably even a top 3 pick.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    The pistons did it long before the pacers did, and were the dominant team out of the east over the last decade. It changed nothing. So...no.
    The 2004+ Pistons were a nice team, but they were hardly the first team to be built the way they were built. Hell, I'd argue they built the same way the 90's Pacers team was built... via some savvy drafting, some savvy trades, no real "superstar" even if Reggie was probly a bigger star than anyone on those Detroit teams, emphasis on defense and rebounding and team play. The Pistons had a better defense while the Pacers had a better offense. The Pacers made 16 playoff appearances in 17 years, reached the conference finals 6 times in 10 years, I could go on. I know a Piston fan won't agree with this, but the Pacers had a more impressive stretch than the 2000s Pistons did ---- MINUS 1 championship. It was the one thing that Pacer team never achieved BUT... the Pistons never had to face Michael Jordan in his prime, as did the Pacers repeatedly. Pistons fans have selective memory about time before their run. The Pacers were an amazing team for a VERY long time before the Brawl.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 02-06-2013 at 02:15 PM.
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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    I know a Piston fan won't agree with this, but the Pacers had a more impressive stretch than the 2000s Pistons did ---- MINUS 1 championship. It was the one thing that Pacer team never achieved BUT... the Pistons never faced Michael Jordan in his prime, as did the Pacers repeatedly.
    On the flipside, I think the Pistons are the greatest franchise in NBA history- MINUS 15 Celtics and Lakers championships, of course....

    Selective logic is awesome.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    On the flipside, I think the Pistons are the greatest franchise in NBA history- MINUS 15 Celtics and Lakers championships, of course....

    Selective logic is awesome.
    Because that's completely relevant to what I said. There's not much difference between the runs that Indy and Detroit made, my point still stands. They were perennial conference finals and Finals participants, the Pistons just got over the hump 1 year. I still believe that the competition during Indy's run was much higher than during Detroits championship season. The peak was in the late 90s when Chicago and NY and the Pacers were all duking it out every year. I don't think the level of play in the early 2000s was near as good. To Pistons fans though, the 2004 team was the greatest team in history.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    They were perennial conference finals and Finals participants, the Pistons just got over the hump 1 year. I still believe that the competition during Indy's run was much higher than during Detroits championship season. The peak was in the late 90s when Chicago and NY and the Pacers were all duking it out every year. I don't think the level of play in the early 2000s was near as good. To Pistons fans though, the 2004 team was the greatest team in history.
    1. The 90's Knicks were hardly a great team. Fond memories do not make them a great foe.
    2. Had the Pistons lost to the Lakers in the 2004 finals, nobody would have blamed them, and I could have played the "Shaq and Kobe were a perfect 4-0 in the finals, we would have won in year 199X." card. Shoulda coulda woulda.
    3. Three of Indiana's six conference title appearance came with Jordan out of the NBA, in a decidedly weakened eastern conference. None of those years did the eventual champion come out of the east. And one of those years you dropped the series to the #8 seed in a decidedly weakened eastern conference.

    I know the 90's have a great nostalgic feel to everyone here, as it was an era where the pacers were relevant for nearly an entire decade. But we don't need to keep piling on the roses on what was a very respectable run of success.
    Last edited by Kstat; 02-06-2013 at 02:30 PM.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    To me there are three strategys in play for how an NBA team goes about the process and it can depend greatly on if they are a big market or small market.

    The first (big market) strategy is to set up a salary "dump" cycle that allows the team to target the Lebron's, Melo's etc. when they become available. Ride the wave as long as productivity & injuries allow then do it again. Basically leverage the big market financials and game the Stern system.

    The second stategy which can be in play for both markets is to take advantage of a down period (tanking could be involved) and maximize opportunities with a couple years of high draft picks. Even if a franchise's scouting department is very good there is still a great deal of luck involved with draft position & player injuries. Just look at the draft history of the Trail Blazers & Timberwolves for instance.

    The third stategy in my mind is long-term team building which is almost exclusively a small market approach. Draft smart, trade well, spend for value only in free agency, lock up your good players long-term and keep the core together. Lots of teams have done this pretty well. Pacers & Jazz in the 90's. Pistons this decade and if you want to win four titles be the Spurs and do a great job combining both 2 & 3 for fifteen plus years.

    I'm hopeful the new CBA will devalue the first strategy and do a better job rewarding the third example. Not sure it will work out that way but it would be great for the NBA in my opinion if there was a paradigm shift similar to what we are seeing in the NCAA where "mid-major" team builders can successfully compete for championships with the big dollar "one & done" programs.

    Edit: I don't think the current Pacers team is doing anything funadmentally different than it did in the 90's other than we could likely see a key piece like DG moved early because of luxary tax implications.
    Last edited by Downtown Bang!; 02-06-2013 at 07:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I'd like to know more about this.

    He's done a couple of bonehead things, but other than that, I have to say, he may be one of the most talented human beings (non just including basketball) on the planet.
    Nothing really earth shattering. He just said what we already know: he's massively underpaid for what he contributes on the floor, and he will never get aid what he's worth under the current CBA.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Nothing really earth shattering. He just said what we already know: he's massively underpaid for what he contributes on the floor, and he will never get aid what he's worth under the current CBA.
    I pretty much agree with both you and LeBron. However, that's one of the drawbacks of having the protection of a union to represent you. The Union by charter has to do what's best for the entire membership and free lance(scabs) don't get to be a part of the group. If the top line players start being payed for their worth to the team, the CBA is history or the non superstar players pay is going waaay down.
    Last edited by Cousy47; 02-06-2013 at 11:01 AM.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Nothing really earth shattering. He just said what we already know: he's massively underpaid for what he contributes on the floor, and he will never get aid what he's worth under the current CBA.
    I dont think too many tears are going to be shed about that.
    Teachers and many other professions are neither.
    Lebron needs to start his one man league.
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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by owl View Post
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    I dont think too many tears are going to be shed about that.
    Teachers and many other professions are neither.
    Lebron needs to start his one man league.
    ...damn him for living in a capitalist country. You'd think we lived in a supply-and-demand economy, or something...

    Nobody is shedding tears for LeBron for being worth $100 million when he could easily be worth $200 million. It's just stating a very ironic fact.
    Last edited by Kstat; 02-06-2013 at 02:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Could there be a Pacers way of building...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    ...damn him for living in a capitalist country. You'd think we lived in a supply-and-demand economy, or something...

    Nobody is shedding tears for LeBron for being worth $100 million when he could easily be worth $200 million. It's just stating a very ironic fact.
    LeBron might well be able to earn $200m currently without salary caps, but putting the league first and having the CBA allows him to be in this position. An ironic fact is without caps, a league in which he earns that much would be unsustainable.

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