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Thread: Pacers/Bulls Postgame Thread 2/4/13

  1. #176

    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls Postgame Thread 2/4/13

    I think Lance would be incredibly effective in the 2nd unit. Augustine is not a playmaker. Lance is. Lance would create a matchup problem because Augustine would be playing SG and be a three point threat. I think it would open everything up in the 2nd unit to be honest. And I agree with the previous post. PG has the handles this year guys. He can handle it.

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  3. #177
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls Postgame Thread 2/4/13

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    But Danny is a far less superior distributor/creator/penetrator.

    While Lance may be currently not quite as good as Danny/PG/Hill, it isn't by too much, and the gap is growing thinner all the time. Arguably, Danny/PG/Hill are similar offensive players. Lance is something very different.

    I am excited about Lance moving to the second unit, because I want to "Free Lance." But I think some people may be disappointed in the offensive flow upon Danny's return. Right now, we have two hammers and a wrench starting. We are about to replace the only wrench with another hammer.
    I know the offense was better last year so I'm not too worried about it.
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    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls Postgame Thread 2/4/13

    Also, in an indirect way, Vogel has announced PG is the primary option on offense when Danny gets back. This is significant and worth mentioning I think. (If he's catering to PG's needs, I think that suggests he considers Paul more important)
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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls Postgame Thread 2/4/13

    I'm still on the fence with regards to who I think will make the team better and in what role. (as if it matters)

    I do believe that if we are fine with Danny getting the vast majority of the points with the second group, and very little else, production wise, out of the bench, then leave Lance with the starters.

    However, i'm leaning toward hoping we give Lance the ball with the second group and saying, "allow your instincts to make this bench a solid contributor across the board. Help Hansbrough get his shot in HIS spots... Get the ball down into the post to Mahinmi, Penetrate and kick to Augustine or..... *gasp* Green... "Be the Triple Double Machine off the bench... As the leader of the second group, your bench needs to account for 30 points/per game, how ever you can get it..."
    Last edited by *astrisk*; 02-05-2013 at 12:55 PM.

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  8. #180
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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls Postgame Thread 2/4/13

    Is it just me, or does it seem like Ian is growing into what is pretty close to a starting caliber Center?

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls Postgame Thread 2/4/13

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Also, in an indirect way, Vogel has announced PG is the primary option on offense when Danny gets back. This is significant and worth mentioning I think. (If he's catering to PG's needs, I think that suggests he considers Paul more important)
    I'll be worry if Vogel and the Pacers didn't consider Paul George more important than Danny Granger.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls Postgame Thread 2/4/13

    Quote Originally Posted by pacers74 View Post
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    Is it just me, or does it seem like Ian is growing into what is pretty close to a starting caliber Center?
    Absolutely he is... If he didnt miss every other pass directed at him, he would easily be a double digit scorer. He is exactly what we need off the bench

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  13. #183
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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls Postgame Thread 2/4/13

    Maybe Vogel has in mind playing Paul at the 3 and Granger some at PF. In order to keep Lances minutes at 30+ I believe Hibbs minutes will decline. Seems like Hibbert is only effective for about 24 minutes a game anyways.

    Hill, Lance, Paul, Granger, West/Mahinmi

    not something i would expect pacers to start out a game with obviously but against certain teams (NY, MIA, ATL) it could be done.

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  15. #184
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls Postgame Thread 2/4/13

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I'll be worry if Vogel and the Pacers didn't consider Paul George more important than Danny Granger.
    I mean of course they do. But them considering Paul the number one option now regardless of Granger's contribution is significant. Especially since at the moment, Granger is still the more dangerous offensive weapon.
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  17. #185
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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls Postgame Thread 2/4/13

    Great win I don't care who wasn't playing any roster that suits up under Thibs is going to be a tough team to beat......Loved the offensive flow and rhythm we were consistently getting open looks and moving the ball extremely well. Great game for George Hill where have these performances been this year from him? I mean he has been solid all year but he seems like he is capable of having more games like this than he has this is only his 7th 20 point outing of the year, he seems like he should have more than that with his skill set on offense (and yes I know he is taking a more of a facilitator role this year than previously, but still). Lance Stephenson is playing great lately and major props to Vogel for again using a players slump to try to reinvent the player and get the best out of him in upcoming games (now can he get through to Roy please!!). Lance is playing at a level that has made me feel at ease knowing that Granger may have to be dealt in the the off-season or the near future to make the numbers game work, and this is coming from a huge Granger supporter. If we get the right deal and it helps us keep DWest for the numbers game it will no longer upset me due to Lances continued growth.

    Now onto Roy, first I'll start off saying I like aamcguy have been vocal about defending Roy for his offensive struggles siting that Hawks fans didn't complain about Mutumbo's lack of offense etc. But wow I have to agree with Mad Man Mario here I don't care if you are no longer a focal point of the offensive anymore Roy, but you can't be a downright liability on offense anymore. His lack of production may very well make life much tougher for David West come playoff time is the thing that most concerns me. If teams watch Roy not be able to put up any production against guys like Taj Gibson defending him then what is to stop teams like the Bulls from just always putting their best big bodied defender on West in the future. Logically you would think that in a 7 game series against the Bulls that Thibs would have no choice but to put Noah on him for the series, but if Roy continues at his current rate that is no longer the case he could easily get away with hiding Boozer's defensive ineptitude's on Hibbert and forcing West into the much tougher task of scoring against the likes of Noah. This is the scary part not that I care if we are capable of going to him or not during stretches of the game because like aamcguy has said when Granger comes back we will have 4 good scores around him to offset that need, but the fact that he is so inefficient on simple put backs and simple finishes around the rim after good passes is getting very alarming, and throw on top of that that it is getting so bad to the point where he isn't even a go to option when they have a player like Taj on him is very alarming. Trust me teams will take note of this and because of this it is going to cause much tougher match ups for West come playoff time. The frustrating part is that most of us know that it has to basically be a mental thing, we have seen him capable of finishing these high percentage looks too often in the past to just write it off to him being a bad offensive player. This season he just seems far too rushed in the post, very indecisive, and very off balance under any kind of contact situations. These are all things he was good at last season, last season he was very patient in the post, very decisive with his play-making and scoring, and he has always been a bit awkward and fairly easier to push off balance but not to the degree that he seems to be this year. I hope he figures it out if only for the simple reason of getting a higher shooting percentage on rim finishes and for the reason of not making life tougher for West come playoff time.
    Last edited by VideoVandal; 02-05-2013 at 01:21 PM.

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  19. #186
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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls Postgame Thread 2/4/13

    Quote Originally Posted by TinManJoshua View Post
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    Exactly, a left wing and a right wing. Like hockey.
    Best explanation yet. Thanks for that.

    "Shooting Guard" and "Small Forward" simply don't have a meaning in this system.
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  21. #187
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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls Postgame Thread 2/4/13

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    But Danny is a far less superior distributor/creator/penetrator.

    While Lance may be currently not quite as good as Danny/PG/Hill, it isn't by too much, and the gap is growing thinner all the time. Arguably, Danny/PG/Hill are similar offensive players. Lance is something very different.

    I am excited about Lance moving to the second unit, because I want to "Free Lance." But I think some people may be disappointed in the offensive flow upon Danny's return. Right now, we have two hammers and a wrench starting. We are about to replace the only wrench with another hammer.
    And yet last year's starting unit was far superior on offense to this year's starting unit. Sure, Hibbert is worse, but West is FAR better. George is on another level compared to last year. So why was last year's team so much better on O?
    Welcome to Pacers Digest! New around here? Here are three tips for making the forum a great place to talk about Pacers basketball.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls Postgame Thread 2/4/13

    Quote Originally Posted by VideoVandal View Post
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    Lance Stephenson is playing great lately and major props to Vogel for again using a players slump to try to reinvent the player and get the best out of him in upcoming games (now can he get through to Roy please!!).
    The point about Lance was VERY WELL said... It can't be overstated, that the one thing about Frank, is that he is genuinely appreciative of players that leave their heart on the floor, and he also recognizes their strengths and gets the most out of their ability, playing off said strengths... (The ANTI- D'ANTONI)

    Which is what they have been doing with Roy, and he is sloooowly coming around. They said, "Roy, you are a great defensive Center. That's what we expect out of you!" It has taken the pressure to carry the team, offensively, off of him and his #'s are starting to come around a little.

  23. #189
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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls Postgame Thread 2/4/13

    Anyone got a video of that lance crossover when he shook Cook?

  24. #190

    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls Postgame Thread 2/4/13

    I think Lance changes everything on the 2nd unit. I think he's that kind of playmaker. He passes the eye test. He's playing incredible right now. Put him with DJ/Green/Mahimi/ and Tyler. I think thats a tough second unit with Lance making plays. His aggressiveness/control has been amazing. He is not a liability at all. That's one of the best compliments i can come up with. He can play with any combo unit we throw out there and he is absolutely not a liability. What a draft by Larry. Seriously. They'll write columns about that draft some day.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls Postgame Thread 2/4/13

    I think Lance moving to the second unit benefits Ian/Tyler so much. Hell, even DJ will benefit.

    Lance has that uncanny ability to get the ball to a big early in the shotclock, before the defender is prepared to defend a pass. Tyler runs the court so well, he'll be the recipient of many of Lances incredible passes IMO. I can just see Tyler getting deep position on a mini-break and actually receiving the ball because Lance isn't afraid to try to thread the needle.

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  28. #192
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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls Postgame Thread 2/4/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Foul on Smits View Post
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    I think Lance changes everything on the 2nd unit. I think he's that kind of playmaker. He passes the eye test. He's playing incredible right now. Put him with DJ/Green/Mahimi/ and Tyler. I think thats a tough second unit with Lance making plays. His aggressiveness/control has been amazing. He is not a liability at all. That's one of the best compliments i can come up with. He can play with any combo unit we throw out there and he is absolutely not a liability. What a draft by Larry. Seriously. They'll write columns about that draft some day.
    Except for including Green I agree

    What a waste he's been.

  29. #193
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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls Postgame Thread 2/4/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Best explanation yet. Thanks for that.

    "Shooting Guard" and "Small Forward" simply don't have a meaning in this system.

    Or, as Larry Brown has said since at least the mid-90's, if not before, the 12-man roster consists of five guys that can defend the post, four interchangable wings, and three point guards.

    Now in this system, I think we're running with three wings and two post guys. Not a four-out/ single post system as David is clearly a high post player. But George Hill is closer to a wing than a traditional point. It works because Vogel's system is flexible about what to do with Hill (and Lance). If you are going to run Granger as a fourth wing with Hill, Lance and Paul, then I think you need Roy in the low post vs. David in the high post. Otherwise, you risk becoming a donut team.

    I think Hill-Lance-Paul-Danny-either David or Roy could be a good defensive lineup vs. Miami. That's fair. But I don't think any of us would like the "skip the ball around the perimeter of the donut" offense that would ensue.
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  30. #194

    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls Postgame Thread 2/4/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek2k3 View Post
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    Except for including Green I agree

    What a waste he's been.
    If you can talk Green out of running to the 3 point line, I think Lance would put him on a highlight film every single night.

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  32. #195

    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls Postgame Thread 2/4/13

    The crazy thing is that I was a huge Lance hater the last few years. I dont know what changed with him, but whatever it is, he's made me a believer. I think we'll have to pay this guy or let him go. He's going to be really good. I dont know how good, but with his size, ability, court vision. He's an outstanding player. Enjoy it right now. I hope we can resign him. I think he's gunna be a championship player in all honesty. I cant even believe i'm saying this. But i've seen enough to realize how hard he's working. It needs to be recognized. He's been huge in just about every big Eastern Conference showdown we've had.

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  34. #196

    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls Postgame Thread 2/4/13

    You kinda forget Lance is only 22 btw.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls Postgame Thread 2/4/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Foul on Smits View Post
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    If you can talk Green out of running to the 3 point line, I think Lance would put him on a highlight film every single night.
    Maybe true, which is why I believe, with Lance, that may put Green back in play at back-up SF... He atleast will get another shot.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls Postgame Thread 2/4/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Foul on Smits View Post
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    The crazy thing is that I was a huge Lance hater the last few years. I dont know what changed with him, but whatever it is, he's made me a believer. I think we'll have to pay this guy or let him go. He's going to be really good. I dont know how good, but with his size, ability, court vision. He's an outstanding player. Enjoy it right now. I hope we can resign him. I think he's gunna be a championship player in all honesty. I cant even believe i'm saying this. But i've seen enough to realize how hard he's working. It needs to be recognized. He's been huge in just about every big Eastern Conference showdown we've had.
    At the least, Lance is a tradable asset at next years trading deadline that is going to bring us a Lottery Pick.

  37. #199

    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls Postgame Thread 2/4/13

    Quote Originally Posted by *astrisk* View Post
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    At the least, Lance is a tradable asset at next years trading deadline that is going to bring us a Lottery Pick.
    I would not see the logic behind making that deal.

  38. #200
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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls Postgame Thread 2/4/13

    This may sound silly, but I feel that moving Lance to the bench, and starting Danny will affect George Hill more than anyone. With Lance in the starting lineup, GH is able to spot up for open 3's as Lance penetrates. Also, it allows Lance to run the break and makes GH a finisher more often than not--as opposed to the facilitator. These trends have been key to our recent improvements on offense.

    However....

    It's not every day you can add a guy who can get you 20 ppg to your starting lineup lol. No we don't need Danny to score 20 ppg, but we do need a guy that has that POTENTIAL to score 20 ppg.

    For those that say Granger should come off the bench, his offensive punch doesn't benefit anyone within the 2nd unit cept MAYBE DJ. But honestly, DJ hasn't even shown an ability to get others shots since earlier in the season. But when you put Lance in with the second unit, suddenly their tempo can pick up; Tyler and Ian are getting layups, DJ can spot up for 3's, etc.

    Meanwhile, the starters are running their "meat and potatoes" offense with West in the post, GH pick n roll, PG running off screens, Danny spotting up and Roy hitting the glass.

    We not have the personnel to go big, small, or in between. If we had a backup PG that could guard small/quick PG's, we'd be able to play any team with any lineup.

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