BTW, I usually buy tickets off stubhub for games I don't get tickets too. I have a few connections so I would say I pay for half the games. Peck, when I'm sitting behind the hoop close to you, those are friends season tickets. Anyway, I was sitting club for the Detroit game because a buddy won an auction for 4 club tickets. The volunteer thing came up and I made a bet because I couldn't believe it. So I asked a few of the confession workers and they told me. That same game one of the employes in the green jackets asked us if we would like to upgrade to a few rows behind Detroit bench. It was great for us but I don't think Kimmy, Monroe, or Magette liked it too much.
No excuses. The Kings were able to hold better attendance during down years than the Pacers did. Having just gone to Sacto to see a game in person I can say that the city obviously isn't larger, the arena location is NOT CONVENIENT (unless you live out that way, it's not central/downtown), there is NO INDOOR PARKING (weather makes this not a big deal I guess), they play weekday games there too, the arena is very small in general, and while "neat" and "has character" it is not a draw itself like Conseco is. There is no good reason for a Kings/Suns game on WED night to draw any fans, and double that when you have ownership proglems (see Charlotte/Shinn). But instead they are killing themselves trying to hold on.
"Too knowledgable"...BULLS***. I've been to too many games where fans boo CORRECT CALLS. In fact that's far more frequent than vice versa. In fact the whole "see, Lebron gets everything" angle is such crap. He does get some breaks and flops, but for f***s sake he just got called for traveling against Sam Young the other night and drew 4 fouls, so it's not like we've haven't seen him held accountable. Yet after EVERY GAME you have fans talking about how Team X got all the calls and it's such crap and so unfair. It's the exact opposite of "too knowledgeable". It's homerish. Every travel, carry, charge, or "block" by Roy with lots of contact gets filed under "well of course" and the instant it goes the other way it's "we haven't gotten a fair call all night". Childish.
Now I moved my seats last year down toward the Pacers bench in and I've found that knowledge in this area is better. These are the regulars who are like us and very devoted to the Pacers. This is not a Hoosier who might like basketball but doesn't really follow the Pacers. And there is no freaking way anyone can intelligently suggest that Indiana HS or NCAA basketball features better refs or less home court calls, and double that in terms of the level of ability. Again it's almost like the game moves too fast and with too much nuance for the casual fan to follow and they just expect all contact on every play to be a home foul or a play on if it happens to the visitors.
And if any fanbase could turn on the NBA due to bad ref work it would have been Sacto after the most famous set of questionable calls in the history of the NBA playoffs vs the Lakers. But they stuck with it anyway.
I've long been frustrated with the fanbase, but with a losing record and a coach that made even me give up season tickets till they made a change, it was hard to be too upset. But the freaking brawl, or small town chip, or losing, or lack of good players, or lack of good product....time is up on those excuses. It's time to come to grips with the fact that in 49 other states it's just basketball but in Indiana it's just ignored.
*please understand that NO ONE AT DIGEST fits this bill, if your friends and neighbors thought like you do then we'd have packed houses all the time, at least for the last 2 seasons due to the quality of coaching and players.
And then I'll move too because it will be indicative of the small-minded mentality of the city in general and what prevents it from being as progressive as other cities, while also having a bizarre delusion that it is. I keep wanting to think there is enough of us to make a difference, but in the last 10 years or so I've started losing my faith that it can really change.
Let's not forget that the PLAYOFF COLTS saw season ticket sales fall below 100% simply because Manning wasn't going to return. They lost the waiting list and then some. Then later all the "devoted" fans started hopping back on. Pathetic. I went to too many Colts games when they had good teams getting weak support too. The 90's showed how poorly good but not #1 teams not named IU get supported in this state.
Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 02-03-2013 at 04:19 PM.
Only Indy has economic issues, either you work and can't get there in time or you don't have a job and can't afford it. Black magic keeps fans going to New Orleans games.
Can someone bring up a reason that is NOT TRUE for other NBA cities? Anyone? And on top of that this is supposed to be Indiana, home of basketball love. We are supposed to need the fewest reasons to get out and see games, not more reasons than normal. It should take 50 problems to hold the fanbase back, way more than would keep fans away in Phoenix or Sacramento.
If the Pacers go to Sacramento do we all become Bulls fans?
You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....
Man, you talk about a thread full of melodrama. Good god Seth, take a Prozac.
The Colts only lost 13% of their season ticket holders. You make it sound like they lost 50%. 87% of the ticket holders were willing to keep supporting the team without Manning. That's pretty high. You have to also figure that there is going to be x% every year who don't renew because of reasons that have nothing to do with football (can't afford them anymore, move away from Indiana, etc etc). The Colts parted with one of the greatest players ever and suffered a pathetic 2-14 season, yet almost 90% of the fans decided to stick with the franchise. How is that small-minded? How is that not being loyal? There hasn't been a single blackout in almost ten years. We've played two years without Manning and haven't blacked out a game. That's being a good fan base.
How does Indy have a small-minded mentality? It just hosted the Super Bowl and will be bidding on another. I know that hosting a Super Bowl isn't the end all and be all of everything, but it shows that the city is constantly trying to improve its image. What more could the city of Indianapolis possibly due for the Pacers? They gave them a nice taxpayer funded arena, let them use it rent free, gave them 30 million a few years back and another 10 million this year. Indianapolis has done nothing but cater to the Pacers for years and the fans supported them for many years. The Pacers have to take accountability for the fact that they were a poorly run franchise for several years. The brawl, off the court incidents, and general poor play turned people off. Maybe diehards were still interested, but casual fans who aren't obsessed with the NBA aren't going to watch a crappy product.
In 2005, for example, the Pacers averaged more fans than the Celtics. This is despite the fact that Boston has a larger arena and is also bigger than Indy by millions and millions of people. The Pacers should never average more fans than Boston in a season, but they did. The Celtics are the team of championships, Bird, Russell, etc, yet no one gave a damn about them in the mid 2000's because there were better shows in town in the Pats and Sox. It was only with the addition of the Big 3 that Boston began caring about the Celtics again. It should also be noted that the Patriots had pathetic attendance in the early 90's before Robert Kraft bought the team and produced a better product. So don't let Boston fans fool you. They are no different than any other fan base, despite being one of the largest metros in the country. The bottom line is that people don't want to watch crappy NBA basketball.
Indy has proven that it isn't "small-minded" by its diehard support of the Colts in recent years. 87% of fans, or roughly 9 out of 10, decided that they were willing to give the Colts a chance without one of the most famous players ever. It has been almost 10 years since the last blackout. The Colts are a franchise who has consistently rewarded their fans. The Pacers OTOH have been putting out a great product for two seasons, but that was after many seasons of pathetic play and off the court incidents which ruined the franchise's image. The Pacers have to take accountability for the fact that they turned people off. Casual observers simply aren't going to waste their money on the crap the Pacers were producing. But people have noticed the improvement and the crowds are more lively than they used to be.
The 7 o'clock weeknight tip offs are part of the problem. If you live on the north side of Indy or in Hamilton County and get off work downtown at 5 o'clock, then you basically have to hang around downtown for two hours before the game. Driving home would certainly be a complete waste of time. By the time you get home, it's ten o'clock and you've been gone for like 14 straight hours. That might sound wimpy to a diehard fan, but if you're a casual person who doesn't care that much, are you going to hang around downtown for all those hours just to see the Pacers beat up on the Pistons on a cold Wednesday night? No, you'll wait till they play someone on a Friday.
I don't see what you mean by Indy not being "progressive". Indy might not be NY or San Francisco, but I see a city that is constantly improving. Apartment complexes are always popping up downtown. Neighborhoods are improving and nice restaurants are always opening. Indy has an incredible selection of ethnic restaurants. It also has great museums. Indy is always spending money to improve the city. It's far from small minded.
Last edited by Sollozzo; 02-03-2013 at 04:43 PM.
The brawl years turned everyone away. That mixed with not having a Reggie level player has cause the fans not to all come back. But it keeps getting better and better. People are talking about the team. If they have a nice run this year, the fans will be back. Especially if PG has a breakout playoff performance.
[QUOTE=Sollozzo;1578391]The Colts only lost 13% of their season ticket holders. You make it sound like they lost 50%. 87% of the ticket holders were willing to keep supporting the team without Manning. That's pretty high.
That is not quite right. The Colts lost 13% of their season ticket holders but all of the people who had been on a waiting list for years. I will admit they kept more than I thought they would. But, if that team has two or three bad seasons, you will see that number come down..... ...
My contention is that they are already back for the most part. We are really only 2K off of our normal high attendance record (minus the opening season of BLF which was a total sell out before the season started).
Casual fans are not going to show up mid week in sub arctic temps to watch the Wizards, Bobcats, Raptors, Cavaliers, Kings, Wolves, etc.
Bring the Knicks, Nets, Bulls, Heat, Lakers, Clippers, Thunder, etc. to town and you will see a full house.
Guess what, other than N.Y., Chicago, L.A. & a few other select markets it the exact same way. Watch a Philly game on a Tuesday vs one of the first named teams here & tell me you see every seat full. Now bring the second group in and it is.
Did we not just have a sell out?
Look I get the die hards are still mad about the fan base turning against the franchise after the brawl but the only thing we can do is try and move beyond it and get better & IMO we are doing exactly that.
IF IF IF IF IF IF. Ifs are only ifs. The actual concrete results speak for themselves, and they show that the Colts brand and popularity has remained unscathed without Manning. But that's what happens when you're a top notch organization that consistently rewards your fans.
Last edited by Sollozzo; 02-03-2013 at 05:01 PM.
Does that mean the Limo, suite seating and free food and drink plus the $100 offer is off the table? Rats.
But at the end of the day it's not a problem. You don't build a league best scoreboard, sound-system and upgrade every TV in an arena you could imagine leaving. Where could they possibly get a better deal? Indy does anything for their sports teams. When you look at teams leaving, it's never about the fans, it's about the cities not caving to team demands.
1. The brawl happened. It obviously was a devastating event, but it was actually overshadowed at the end of the season by Reggie's farewell tour. Fans remained interested that season and flocked to Conseco to get one last look at Reggie. Plus the team actually kept winning that season.
2. Then Reggie retires and things immediately go downhill. Artest embarrasses the franchise by demanding a trade after the Pacers stuck by him during the brawl turmoil. We had a mediocre 2005-2006 season and were bounced in the first round.
3. Things then begin to get really dicey. From 2006-2010, we don't make the playoffs. Those years are filled with embarrassing off the court incidents, unlikable or boring players, and pathetic basketball. We also had a very unpopular coach in O'Brien.
From 2004-2010, we had one bad story after another and generally had poor basketball. That's a lot to recover from, but I agree that things are taking a turn for the better. You hear a lot more Pacer talk around Indy than you used to. I went to the NY and Miami games, and the crowds were fantastic. Things are on the rise.
I tried to type this the other day and had internet issues and lost it. Basically, from what I am seeing the Pacers ARE making serious inroads and getting their support back among casual fans. People ARE noticing the team is winning again and it is a team they like. They have finally figured out who is gone and no longer in a Pacers' uniform.
I've overheard or been involved in conversations of late in places where hearing complimentary things about the Pacers would be very unexpected in the mid-late 00's. But now old guys sitting at a small town bar on a Monday afternoon and actually discussing the Pacers in complimentary terms, and with some passing knowledge of the season.
I've been in a church and heard young men talking and asking questions about the Pacers "Hey, the Pacers are doing pretty good aren't they? I hadn't been paying attention until recently. They looked good the other night".
I suppose some of this comes from returning to national TV. Maybe THAT is a real value of the playoffs... getting the team back on the tube where people can stumble across a Pacers game instead of some other random basketball game. Then follow that in subsequent seasons with some more natl TV appearances and good showings. And finally, make sure the announcers have good things to say about the Pacers instead of dragging up old history.
Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.
"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."
Pretty much everything that individuals are getting all twisted up about and labeling as excuses is what most of us would call personal choice. No casual fan who chooses not to support the franchise at the level most of us on this board have or currently do has to apologize for how they arrived at that choice.
Indy basketball fans are in general more knowledgable. I have lived in four different states three of which have an NBA franchise and your average casual basketball fan in all of them couldn't keep up with the farmers drinking bad coffee and talking hoops at the Hardees in Danville.
some of these comments just wreak with entitlement...like the pacers somehow owe them something....it costs a lot of money to go to games...i get that...yet less than most nba cities....if u cant afford it..i get that too...no problem at all...watch on tv...makes sense...though u can get some really cheap tickets these days approaching almost free....and anyone that says its better to watch on tv than sit in the upper balcony...well im just sorry..simply not true....but for those offering up any excuses...please...give it a rest...its lame..beyond belief...
and fyi...to those talking about bus trips from afar etc...those are almost never arranged or have any affiiliation with the team or organization...those are always fan oriented with someone turning it into a profitmaking business more often than not...same for the nfl teams and mlb teams as well...