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Thread: Pacers eventually to end up in Sacramento?

  1. #51

    Default Re: Pacers eventually to end up in Sacramento?

    Part of the problem with the whole "Indianapolis is a sports Mecca" model is that it's not infinitely sustainable. And if the powers that be, the ones that decide to dump so much public funding into it, think it is the city is going to whither and die. Building Naptown into Indianapolis based on a sports model was fine and all, but it's flash in the pan type stuff. I'm not about to pretend to now anything about city planning, certainly not involving a state capital metropolis (but I'll tell you how to fix Crawfordsville). They created an unsustainable bubble just to get on the radar, which comes from a good place, but now the bubble's burst and we're oversaturated. So....now what? Indy ain't that big.

  2. #52
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    Default Re: Pacers eventually to end up in Sacramento?

    Friday/Saturday night games have been getting great attendance even when we play bad teams, I'm very promised by that.

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  4. #53

    Default Re: Pacers eventually to end up in Sacramento?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrknowname View Post
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    the city needs better public transportation system. i wonder how many people feel its too much of a hassle to drive downtown and find a parking spot.
    Living in a city with a regional pop. of 18 million and terrible public transportation, I find what you said both hilarious and sadly true. I think people in Indy could gain some perspective by being stuck on the freeway for an hour and then trying to park near Staples Center. Getting to a Pacers game is cakewalk. Parking is super easy and traffic is not bad, at all.

    I don't think better public transportation moves the needle that much. There is a mentality in Indy to stay home or stay in, and unless there's a much larger culture change, it will always be that way.

    Indy has so many great things to offer, but every scene (arts/music/entertainment/restaurant) is struggling to attract customers. People just don't spend much on leisure.

    Look at it this way. The Colts, in 1999, had arguably the best quarterback of all time, top 3 receiver of all time, and the current best running back in the NFL all on the same team. These are, imo, the three most exciting positions in the NFL. We were 13-3 that season, but despite the "once-in-a-lifetime" combination of offensive talent, it still took 4 seasons for us to not have TV blackouts. And even then we were only avoiding blackouts because WISH-TV or some other company would purchase a boatload of tickets at the last minute.

    I don't even know when we started having legitimate Colts sellouts, but it took years. IMO that's not a problem with marketing, public transportation, traffic, etc. That's a problem with the Hoosier mentality.
    Last edited by imawhat; 02-02-2013 at 11:38 AM.

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  6. #54

    Default Re: Pacers eventually to end up in Sacramento?

    Having said all of that, I still think there are marketing issues with the team. One of the best tools to look at is market share for TV viewership. It's been up markedly over the past two or three seasons, but Indy viewership, pound for pound, is still well below the league average. I think I'd calculated it out at some point, but I think we average something like 70,000 home views per game, which I actually think makes the BLF attendance stand out. 8-16% of people interested enough to watch the Pacers are actually at the game? That's remarkable. Maybe UB can bring up his TV ratings post.

    There are multiple steps that go into bringing the fanbase back, and it probably starts with home viewership.

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    Default Re: Pacers eventually to end up in Sacramento?

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    Living in a city with a regional pop. of 18 million and terrible public transportation, I find what you said both hilarious and sadly true. I think people in Indy could gain some perspective by being stuck on the freeway for an hour and then trying to park near Staples Center. Getting to a Pacers game is cakewalk. Parking is super easy and traffic is not bad, at all.

    I don't think better public transportation moves the needle that much. There is a mentality in Indy to stay home or stay in, and unless there's a much larger culture change, it will always be that way.

    Indy has so many great things to offer, but every scene (arts/music/entertainment/restaurant) is struggling to attract customers. People just don't spend much on leisure.

    Look at it this way. The Colts, in 1999, had arguably the best quarterback of all time, top 3 receiver of all time, and the current best running back in the NFL all on the same team. These are, imo, the three most exciting positions in the NFL. We were 13-3 that season, but despite the "once-in-a-lifetime" combination of offensive talent, it still took 4 seasons for us to not have TV blackouts. And even then we were only avoiding blackouts because WISH-TV or some other company would purchase a boatload of tickets at the last minute.

    I don't even know when we started having legitimate Colts sellouts, but it took years. IMO that's not a problem with marketing, public transportation, traffic, etc. That's a problem with the Hoosier mentality.
    You just made the point I was going to make about the Colts early in the Peyton Manning era, and it's a fantastic one. The Colts couldn't consistently sell out with an entertaining team and one of the best QBs of all time in the early 2000s.

    I've always thought Indianapolis (and the state of Indiana) was a great amateur sports town (and state), but not a good pro one. If the Colts hadn't lucked (pun not intended) into Andrew Luck, you'd be seeing several years of inconsistent sellouts for the Colts as well. But as big as basketball is Indiana, I can't see David Stern or Adam Silver not doing everything they can to ensure that Indiana has a pro basketball team. It would be bad for the NBA.

  9. #56

    Default Re: Pacers eventually to end up in Sacramento?

    If you expect Stern/Silver to to stick up for Indiana because of some (completely wrong) perception of Indiana basketball state you're not seeing the sapling through the trees. They don't care about Indiana, nor should they, it's a crap market. They may do it because the Simons have been such a strong ownership group, but it has absolutely zero to do with their market. Literally the ONLY thing Indianapolis has going for it is BLF.

  10. #57

    Default Re: Pacers eventually to end up in Sacramento?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    Indy ain't that big.
    Indy, a town with 75 times more people than Washington Indiana, should be able to regularly put 16,000 people in BLF, only 2 times more people than have gone to the Hatchet House to watch a basketball game.

  11. #58

    Default Re: Pacers eventually to end up in Sacramento?

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    Indy, a town with 75 times more people than Washington Indiana, should be able to regularly put 16,000 people in BLF, only 2 times more people that have gone to the Hatchet House to watch a basketball game.
    We may as well be talking about soccer in London compared to hockey in Columbus, OH.

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  13. #59

    Default Re: Pacers eventually to end up in Sacramento?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    We may as well be talking about soccer in London compared to hockey in Columbus, OH.
    You said Indy wasn't big enough. It's plenty big enough.

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    Default Re: Pacers eventually to end up in Sacramento?

    Quote Originally Posted by xIndyFan View Post
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    Good insight, but in the end, these miss the point. They are excuses for not going. They are excuses to explain why Indianapolis is not really an NBA city. They are excuses that will be used to explain why the Indiana Pacers are the Sacramento Pacers. They are just excuses for why Indianapolis may not be an NBA city.

    If Indianapolis is an NBA city, then people will go to the games. The product is a good product. The team is winning. The team is made up of good guys. That was Mark and Eddie's point. If the city of Indianapolis is a NBA town, then they need to start showing up. Maybe Indy is not an NBA town, for all the reasons listed here. If that is the case, I will be really sad. I am an NBA fan. I go to the games. I like Indianapolis. It is a great place to live. One of the things that makes it great is the presence of an NBA team.

    But in the end, if people don't go to the games, the games will go somewhere else.
    Bingo....this thread is mindboggling...5 years ago what were the excuses??? The team isnt winning...the team is a bunch of thugs...i cant identify with any of the players on the team nor do i like them...the coach sucks and we dont play good ole hoosier basketball that i like....

    Well guess what...the team is winning...at one of the highest rates in the league and has been for about 2 years now...the team has been completely cleaned up of all the player problems-only lance has any baggage at all and even he has been on his best behavior as even his biggest detractors will admit...and oh..guess what, theres a group of young players lead by an allstar that are pretty damn exciting and fun to watch...that douche of a coach is gone and has been replaced by one of the most dynamic, up and coming coaches in the league...and he has the team playing smashmouth basketball with an emphasis on defense-so much so that theyre currently the best defending team in the league-something hoosiers supposedly love...this is a bring your lunchpail go to work kinda team....

    So whats the f.c.ing problem now?????

    Freaking billboards and public transportation? The NBA and the Miami Heat? The same heat we have beaten to a pulp more often times than not lately? Give me a freakin break...Cause of High Def Tv..what f.c.ing ever...Lame *** excuses made by lame *** excuse makers...If i was Simon I would be pissed too...All most do is make excuses...You dont wanna go to games or cant afford to, then just say so...otherwise just STFU with this BS...

    Luckily for those that actually care...Herb will likely never sell the team or move the team...hes far more loyal than some on here obviously are....but when he passes....god help us....cause anyone that knows David can probably see him doing exactly that if this crap continues...

  15. #61

    Default Re: Pacers eventually to end up in Sacramento?

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    You said Indy wasn't big enough. It's plenty big enough.
    I absolutely agree, our attendance is embarrassing. I'm talking about the lack of actual diehard fans.

  16. #62

    Default Re: Pacers eventually to end up in Sacramento?

    I don't think people understand why teams move.

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  18. #63
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    Default Re: Pacers eventually to end up in Sacramento?

    For me personally, the distance and possible traffic log is to much for me. I am 30 miles outside 116th st. and to make an 8:00 game is impossible by the time I get off work. If, I tried to rush and absolutely NO traffic hold ups happened then I could make it to the street at 8:15. I, myself don't think It's in the best interest of me and my family to attempt such a thing. I worked in Indy over ten years and I know the unpredictability of the highways and getting downtown.
    Last edited by Pacer Fan; 02-02-2013 at 02:52 PM.
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    Default Re: Pacers eventually to end up in Sacramento?

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersHomer View Post
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    I don't think people understand why teams move.
    Well if they dont, then they should pay attention to this thread to find out exactly why...when it takes a couple thousand fans from the opposing team to sell out a product like the current pacer product...when a team owner could be paid millions upon millions to go to another city where they will be given a new building, sellouts forever and every incentive known to mankind....well....most team owners didnt make their millions by being that stupid...

  20. #65

    Default Re: Pacers eventually to end up in Sacramento?

    Quote Originally Posted by *astrisk* View Post
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    They are right. Indianapolis does not deserve an NBA team. The hardcore fanbase does, but sadly the city itself does not. What more can the city and ownership give us as fans? Best arena... Quality product... Ticket discounts out the wazzoo... a dedication to providing a team that has a great work ethic and character...

    If the NBA was played once a week I believe people would pack the house, but there just isn't enough interest and passion for it anymore. Maybe that can change if the Pacers win a ring this year? I don't know though...
    Totally true. Indianapolis area does not have fan base to fill lower bowl regularly when tix average over $100 a game. Not an indictment mind you. I wouldn't want to pay top $ to see Detroit, New Orleans or Toronto either.

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    Default Re: Pacers eventually to end up in Sacramento?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrknowname View Post
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    i wonder how many people feel its too much of a hassle to drive downtown and find a parking spot.
    Which is total ********, considering I can park a block from the fieldhouse for $5. Plus there was that crap article Tully wrote for the Star after the CIB vote where he said it would cost $150 for a family of four to sit in the balcony, not counting food and parking. That was absolute ********, considering that Pacer tickets can be had for CHEAPER than dirt. Seriously, I've seen dirt more expensive than Pacers tickets.

    Not that I'm all that worried about the team moving, I think when the time comes, Herb is going to do everything in his power to make sure the team stays here, and I really think Larry Bird is going to be involved in that, despite his comments last year.
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  23. #67
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    Default Re: Pacers eventually to end up in Sacramento?

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Bingo....this thread is mindboggling...5 years ago what were the excuses??? The team isnt winning...the team is a bunch of thugs...i cant identify with any of the players on the team nor do i like them...the coach sucks and we dont play good ole hoosier basketball that i like....

    Well guess what...the team is winning...at one of the highest rates in the league and has been for about 2 years now...the team has been completely cleaned up of all the player problems-only lance has any baggage at all and even he has been on his best behavior as even his biggest detractors will admit...and oh..guess what, theres a group of young players lead by an allstar that are pretty damn exciting and fun to watch...that douche of a coach is gone and has been replaced by one of the most dynamic, up and coming coaches in the league...and he has the team playing smashmouth basketball with an emphasis on defense-so much so that theyre currently the best defending team in the league-something hoosiers supposedly love...this is a bring your lunchpail go to work kinda team....

    So whats the f.c.ing problem now?????

    Freaking billboards and public transportation? The NBA and the Miami Heat? The same heat we have beaten to a pulp more often times than not lately? Give me a freakin break...Cause of High Def Tv..what f.c.ing ever...Lame *** excuses made by lame *** excuse makers...If i was Simon I would be pissed too...All most do is make excuses...You dont wanna go to games or cant afford to, then just say so...otherwise just STFU with this BS...

    Luckily for those that actually care...Herb will likely never sell the team or move the team...hes far more loyal than some on here obviously are....but when he passes....god help us....cause anyone that knows David can probably see him doing exactly that if this crap continues...
    Overreact much? This franchise has been living too close to the edge of extinction its entire existence. There was once a telethon just to keep it solvent for cripes sake.

    As said above Indy is not a great pro sports market. There is plenty of sports $$ competition and a small population base. The NBA in general is not a top tier product. Even the casual basketball fans (the ones that really count monetarily) can see that and choose accordingly. It is way less about excuses and way more about sports business fundamentals. Fundamentals that only line-up well for the franchise when they are making deep playoff runs and challenging the status quo.

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  25. #68
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    Default Re: Pacers eventually to end up in Sacramento?

    Stern/Silver will not let a team move from an arena like BLF. It would look extraordinarily bad for the NBA to let a team move from a city that looks like it is about to become a consistent Super Bowl site.

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    Default Re: Pacers eventually to end up in Sacramento?

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    I agree that marketing and advertising for this team has been a real problem. If you can't get the local news stations to lead with what happened during your game tonight, then you aren't marketing very well. I think the Pacers need to throw some bones to the local news stations and demand better coverage. Last nights Friday Fastbreak show on Fox 59 had highschool basketball as the Lead. All I know is that on Sundays the local news is built around what happened to the Colts. The Pacers need to achieve that sort of coverage for their game days as well, instead of getting 30 secs at the end of hour. This is freaking Indianapolis. Sports is pretty much what we got.
    I agree completely. If you go downtown on any given sunday during the NFL season, pretty much every bar or eatery that has tv's is showing the Colts game and advertise that they're doing so constantly. All of the big news stations constantly talk about the Colts. There are several Colts "wrap up", pre-game, or analysis shows on those stations during the season. What do the Pacers have? We have the pre and post game show on FSI and that's IT. The Pacers ticketing department does a great job of discounting tickets and doing awesome sales, but that's pretty much all they do from what I can tell. Overall, I would say the Pacers aren't a big enough attraction because of lack of public image. They get out and do meet and greet events for an hour or two, but it's almost always at some place on the northside of Indy. Bottom line, I think their marketing department needs to do A LOT more if Herb expects the seats to be full on a consistent basis.
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    Default Re: Pacers eventually to end up in Sacramento?

    I see on that link http://espn.go.com/nfl/attendance Colts were 19 in attendance with an almost perfect average of 65,189 people. Why is that? Is it mostly down to the product that is named NFL?
    I guess that was the case (nearly sold out games) in the past years too. Was it down to the fact the Colts had a true superstar in Peyton? Did the SB win in 2006 played any part or the stadium was always full the years before (the win) too?
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  29. #71
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    Default Re: Pacers eventually to end up in Sacramento?

    Pacers attendance problems are from these reasons (no particular order and some interconnect (fix one and you'd take care of 1 or 2 more problems):

    Terrible marketing outside of 465.

    For basketball purists the NBA is more WWE than X and O's. Indiana has a lot of basketball purists

    NBA marketing (very superstar centric and very centered on largest cities rather than promoting teams... And that impacts everything right down to the calls on the floor).

    Too many games league wide dilutes the product.

    Too much team movement in the NBA (Fans shouldn't have to constantly wonder if/when their team will move).

    Too many teams dilute the market as well (see above).

    City planning seems to support the Pacers more than the Pacers support city planning. IOW there should be a synergy between the two in promoting Indy and the Pacers to the state and nation. Donnie Walsh has been terrible at playing the small market card and creating a complex among many that Indy shouldn't really expect too much and just support the team 'because'. ...Meanwhile, the Colts have done the opposite, been more dynamic and proactive, and have ingrained themselves to Indiana and the region.

    The brawl and more succinctly the players' lackluster performance in subsequent years. The brawl itself didn't set the fanbase back nearly as much as the brawl players not learning any lessons from it... which then fed into a belief that maybe we are the team Stern said we were with his 1-0 decision on penalties following the brawl. Bad character, me-first, over-inflated ego, gun toting-bar brawling players all while in salary cap hell, etc.... This then set into motion severely declining attendance, viewership, and fan disgust that eroded away at the next generation of fans coming up. Dad and grampa weren't following Pacers or the NBA any longer so neither was junior. Meanwhile, bad management decisions perpetuated that situation.
    During the worst of that Donnie Walsh remained in charge and NOBODY moves as slow as Donnie Walsh to address problems (allowing them to fester and become MUCH worse).

    Refusal to take lumps and strive for higher draft picks in off years... instead throwing the kitchen sink at winning a few meaningless games...

    -----
    I don't think Indy is much different than any other fanbase. Few fanbases have had the crap we've had to endure besides just the ebb and flow of winning and losing.
    Last edited by Bball; 02-02-2013 at 02:25 PM.
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  31. #72
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    Default Re: Pacers eventually to end up in Sacramento?

    Quote Originally Posted by Downtown Bang! View Post
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    Overreact much? This franchise has been living too close to the edge of extinction its entire existence. There was once a telethon just to keep it solvent for cripes sake.

    As said above Indy is not a great pro sports market. There is plenty of sports $$ competition and a small population base. The NBA in general is not a top tier product. Even the casual basketball fans (the ones that really count monetarily) can see that and choose accordingly. It is way less about excuses and way more about sports business fundamentals. Fundamentals that only line-up well for the franchise when they are making deep playoff runs and challenging the status quo.
    And I was at that telethon and personally gave Slick my piggy bank with every penny, nickel, dime, quarter and dollar bill I had managed to save in my few years of existence to that point....so forgive me if I have little sympathy for the lame *** excuses being offered by the same people that were offering up a different set of excuses 5 years ago...and the 5 before that...and the 5 before that....billboards, hi def TV, mass transit....give me a f.c.ing break...really...please...and as far as there being plenty of sports $$ competition thats just bogus...not only do the Pacers have just about the cheapest tickets in the whole league, there are few cities with less to do in them than Indy...so just stop...stop with the excuses...and stop blaming others including the Pacers organization for what theyre not doing that is preventing one from going to games...instead of looking at what the Pacers could do or what the nBa can do, many need to look in the mirror and see what theyre not doing or could do...but thats not an easy thing to look at...so they will just throw the attention elsewhere when the real problem would be standing there right in front of them...at this point the pacers and herb simon with the help of larry bird have done more than enough and as said earlier they have a right to be pissed if theyre so inclined because it is kinda a joke...only thing thats a bigger joke are these lame *** excuses

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  33. #73
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    Default Re: Pacers eventually to end up in Sacramento?

    I am not the least bit concerned about the team leaving.

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    Default Re: Pacers eventually to end up in Sacramento?

    cinotimz,
    I think you're speaking about the hardcore fans and they for the most part DO support the team as far as viewership, tickets, merch.... I doubt any team in the country could sell out if they counted on hardcore fans to do it. It's the casual fans that get you sellouts. IMHO....

    Some of those casual fans might become hardcore, but natural attrition is also slowly going to lose you some hardcore fans over time. So you have to keep the potential fanbase energized and continually seek out these casual fans. They are your new revenue streams. They are your sellouts.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Pacers eventually to end up in Sacramento?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    cinotimz,
    I think you're speaking about the hardcore fans and they for the most part DO support the team as far as viewership, tickets, merch.... I doubt any team in the country could sell out if they counted on hardcore fans to do it. It's the casual fans that get you sellouts. IMHO....

    Some of those casual fans might become hardcore, but natural attrition is also slowly going to lose you some hardcore fans over time. So you have to keep the potential fanbase energized and continually seek out these casual fans. They are your new revenue streams. They are your sellouts.
    That's why the NBA went so "kid/family friendly". Once they're more than I believe 3 years old, they cost an extra ticket to get in. "Bring the kids!! Eat some snacks!"

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