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Thread: NBA Acknowledges missed call at end of Denver game.

  1. #76
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    Default Re: NBA Acknowledges missed call at end of Denver game.

    Quote Originally Posted by cgg View Post
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    Offensive fouls are dependent on the defender being in legal defensive position, which Iggy was not.
    Just to clarify as I think some people get it wrong. Yes the defender must be in legal defensive position. But that isn't the same thing as in a set position. The defender can be moving and still draw the offensive foul

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    Default Re: NBA Acknowledges missed call at end of Denver game.

    I love that the NBA comes out and says they were wrong and people still feel the need to justify the call.

    I cut a lot of slack for the refs, but why not just cherish the fact they admitted they made a mistake.

    I did not see the game, but saw the highlights. IMO a no call makes more sense on both ends of the court, but the refs have a hard job and dont have the advantage of replays.

    IMO in a perfect world they would call it consistently, even if the calls are subjective (which they always will be, until we get sensors the players wear to detect any contact at all).

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    Default Re: NBA Acknowledges missed call at end of Denver game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Simply put, call the game consistently. It should have gone to OT. Neither Indiana nor Denver deserved to win the game in the FT line.
    I can understand this. Call the shot clock violation on Indiana's last possession and give Denver the ball at 0:01.8.

    But there's a problem with this. It's not one of your options. The league has implied (via silence) that the foul on Denver's last possession was valid. In other words, since both defenses committed fouls, both teams deserved opportunities to win the game at the line. It should have only gone to OT if both Iggy and Paul hit the same number of FTs in the last 2.2 seconds. Of course, Denver might have run something different with more than 0:00.5 on the clock, and down by 1 or 2 points.

    It's really an impure argument to say that what happened on the previous possession, or over the last five minutes, or who had momentum, should dictate whether a foul is called or not. If it is a foul in the second quarter, the same play is a foul at 0:02.2. I don't want the rules to change, via inconsistent enforcement, because of momentum, the time remaining on the clock, or giving the refs leeway to decide who morally "deserves" the call. That's the slippery slope that justifies the Superstar calls.

    If Paul George fouled Iggy, Iggy should be shooting. If iggy fouled Paul George, Paul should be shooting. "Letting the players decide" has become a license to foul, which favors the defense. I'd rather they force defenders to play without fouling.

    And if you really want to talk about "deserving", we didn't play to win on that last possession. We played not to lose, to get to OT, and we got burned. I really wish Lance could've found a high percentage shot as he drove the lane before the Pacers called timeout at 0:16.8. The Nuggets were getting the ball back anyway. I'd rather run a play for a high percentage shot - without regard to milking the clock and force them to counter. That's playing to win vs. having one of our lesser ball dribble idly against one of the league's better defenders.

    While I don't agree with the no-call at 0:02.2, we didn't "deserve" the foul call after dribbling out the clock.

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    Default Re: NBA Acknowledges missed call at end of Denver game.

    If Iggy were back pedaling, and Paul lowered his shoulder and extended his arm, it's an offensive foul.

    Lost in all if this us just how out of position the ref was. He was behind the play. Paul's body likely shielded Iggy's step forward into Paul that should have been called a defensive foul. And then the ref started running back and Paul's body probably still shielded him from Iggy's signaling for a timeout.

    The camera-- at least the one I saw on the Nuggets broadcast, had a better angle.

    There's no doubt that this call was slaughtered. They couldn't even get it wrong correctly.

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    Default Re: NBA Acknowledges missed call at end of Denver game.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    While I don't agree with the no-call at 0:02.2, we didn't "deserve" the foul call after dribbling out the clock.
    This I can't agree with. "Deserve" has nothing to do with it. If there was a foul on the play, a foul should have been called. I expect officials to call a game as objectively as possible. Not blowing the whistle on an obvious foul because the offensive team didn't "deserve" to be bailed out of the possession is quite the opposite.

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    Default Re: NBA Acknowledges missed call at end of Denver game.

    Order of events:

    1) Pacers try to run a pretty bad /low percentage play
    2) Iggy reaches for the ball and gets nothing- arguably a foul, but I'm OK with a no call
    3) Iggy's reach and Paul's reaction puts them both off balance and there is hard contact with Paul's left shoulder- clearly a foul on the defender, who is not in a legal defensive position.
    4) Paul extends his left arm into the body of Iggy, which would be an offensive foul except for the fact that it occurred AFTER he was fouled. The reverse angle shows the arm extension beginning right after contact, but still NOT simultaneous
    5) Paul loses the ball

    That's what I see when I look at it over and over again.

    No way it can be a double foul since the reach, the bump, and the push-off were consecutive, not simultaneous.
    No way it can be a no call, since the two infractions by the defender clearly were not "incidental contact"
    The fact that the Pacers were running pretty bad / low percentage play is not a reason to change the definition of what constitutes a foul.
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    Default Re: NBA Acknowledges missed call at end of Denver game.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    While I don't agree with the no-call at 0:02.2, we didn't "deserve" the foul call after dribbling out the clock.
    Can you point out where in the rule book it says anything about deserving a call?

    There's nothing I have ever seen in a rule book that comes close to it, so I'm not sure why people keep using this.

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    Default Re: NBA Acknowledges missed call at end of Denver game.

    Quote Originally Posted by TinManJoshua View Post
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    This I can't agree with. "Deserve" has nothing to do with it. If there was a foul on the play, a foul should have been called. I expect officials to call a game as objectively as possible. Not blowing the whistle on an obvious foul because the offensive team didn't "deserve" to be bailed out of the possession is quite the opposite.


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    Default Re: NBA Acknowledges missed call at end of Denver game.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    While I don't agree with the no-call at 0:02.2, we didn't "deserve" the foul call after dribbling out the clock.
    This has to be one of the more absurd things ive read in a while. There are a number of things that go into the merits or whether a foul is deserved. "Dribbling out the clock" or doing things the way Chicago J thinks they should have been done are not amongst those things.

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    Default Re: NBA Acknowledges missed call at end of Denver game.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Did you miss the rest of my rant?
    No. I agreed with it. But framing that last sentence alone(after talking about how we ran the last play "not to lose") sort of flew in the face of the rest of your post. Certainly, you can't make a whole argument about the slope of "momentum calls" and then say at the end, "We didn't deserve the call." I can't tell if you're being hypocritical or you were just paying lip service to reason before laying fault at the Pacers' feet for the end of the game.

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    Default Re: NBA Acknowledges missed call at end of Denver game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Can you point out where in the rule book it says anything about deserving a call?

    There's nothing I have ever seen in a rule book that comes close to it, so I'm not sure why people keep using this.
    Obviously my typing with frozen fingers on my iPhone this morning did not translate well.

    In no way am I possibly advocating that fouls are based on who deserves the whistle.

    Nuntius is.

    Others are/ have been. There was more of it during the first page or two of the post-game thread. Don't remember who all was involved but the sentiment was very common shortly after the end of the game.

    The end of that post was supposed to read as a counterpoint to the "we deserved better because we'd dominated the last six minutes/ The Nuggets didn't deserve anything because we'd been kicking their butts for the last six minutes" arguments in here. Its not a position I agree with. But even if you take that position, I don't think it works here.

    So even if you go on "deserved", I don't think you deserve a call when you dribble out the clock and the only move you make seems to be designed solely to get to the FT line. What else was he going to do? Shoot a long three in a tie game? Are the Pacers that bad at game/clock management? Again, underseving of a friendly whistle.

    My view is that the foul should have been called at 0:02.2., and that the Pacers got lucky that Iggy did not defend the play cleanly. And that's why the foul should have been called. But I was in the minority the other night that didn't mind foul at the other end of the court. I think the Nuggets also got lucky that Paul George slipped or something and also didn't defend that play cleanly. And that's why that foul was called. Both of which were unrelated to each other and both of which were fouls. Complain about consistency? Heck yes. Complain that "we deserved to play in OT"? Uh, no.

    sorry for the confustion. Clearly I'm not a fan of the "such-and-such deserved the call" stuff. And even more clearly from the feedback over the past hour I didn't express that thought well above.
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    Default Re: NBA Acknowledges missed call at end of Denver game.

    I almost wish Denver DID have 2 or 3 seconds left instead of 0.5. That means they almost certainly DON'T get a cheap foul call on a lob pass, and more likely someone catches it on the perimeter and has to heave something up with our long wingspan defenders on them. There's a chance someone got picked free, but certainly not a guarantee. And in any case I'd rather risk the <40% chance they hit a 3 (quite possibly not a set one but rather a rushed or off balance one at that) in that situation rather than be at the mercy of the 61% chance (x 2) that Iguodala hits a free throw.

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    Default Re: NBA Acknowledges missed call at end of Denver game.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Obviously my typing with frozen fingers on my iPhone this morning did not translate well.

    In no way am I possibly advocating that fouls are based on who deserves the whistle.

    Nuntius is.

    Others are/ have been.

    The end of the post was supposed to read as a counterpoint to the "we deserved better because we'd dominated the last six minutes/ The Nuggets didn't deserve anything because we'd been kicking their butts for the last six minutes" arguments in here. Its not a position I agree with. But even if you take that position, I don't think it works here.

    So even if you go on "deserved", I don't think you deserve a call when you dribble out the clock and the only move you make seems to be designed solely to get to the FT line. What else was he going to do? Shoot a long three in a tie game? Are the Pacers that bad at game/clock management? Again, underseving of a friendly whistle.

    My view is that the foul should have been called at 0:02.2., and that the Pacers got lucky that Iggy did not defend the play cleanly. But I was in the minority the other night that didn't mind foul at the other end of the court. I think the Nuggets also got lucky that Paul George slipped or something and also didn't defend that play cleanly. Both of which were unrelated to each other and both of which were fouls.

    sorry for the confustion. Clearly I'm not a fan of the "such-and-such deserved the call" stuff. And even more clearly from the feedback I didn't express that thought well above.
    I don't think we "earned" a friendly whistle. But one of the big things coming out of the immediate post-game hurrah was that "we didn't play well enough the other 43 minutes to deserve to win". even tweeted out that the last two calls didn't matter because we didn't play well enough in the first three quarters to win. But we did play well enough in the fourth to win. We were a blown call away from either game winning free throws or overtime, with the way we were playing the last five minutes we could have won going away(not saying that's exactly how it would have went down, but the momentum swing was clear to me.)

    So while we didn't play well the first three quarters, we cranked it up in the 4th. It wasn't Denver getting sloppy, it was us "turning it on". We came back and had a tie game with 2 seconds left. You can't throw out the last five minutes because the first 43 didn't go well. We were in the game in winning time and that's all that matters.

    Edit: none of this is directed at you, it's just sort of what I've gleamed from the boards since the game.

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    Default Re: NBA Acknowledges missed call at end of Denver game.

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    I almost wish Denver DID have 2 or 3 seconds left instead of 0.5. That means they almost certainly DON'T get a cheap foul call on a lob pass, and more likely someone catches it on the perimeter and has to heave something up with our long wingspan defenders on them. There's a chance someone got picked free, but certainly not a guarantee. And in any case I'd rather risk the <40% chance they hit a 3 (quite possibly not a set one but rather a rushed or off balance one at that) in that situation rather than be at the mercy of the 61% chance (x 2) that Iguodala hits a free throw.

    Oh, I agree completely. For as much as I heard the Denver announcers complain about the clock issues at the end of the game, I wish for the Pacers sake that the extra time was added to the clock so that our defenders could play a "normal" play instead of defend against basketball's equivalent of a hail Mary... throw it at the end zone errrrr I mean rim and hope for pass interference. Which is exactly what happened...

    The clock situation actually hurt the Pacers. Do you think I'm making this point because I want to help out Denver? Screw the Nuggets! Go Pacers.
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    Default Re: NBA Acknowledges missed call at end of Denver game.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Obviously my typing with frozen fingers on my iPhone this morning did not translate well.

    In no way am I possibly advocating that fouls are based on who deserves the whistle.

    Nuntius is.

    Others are/ have been. There was more of it during the first page or two of the post-game thread. Don't remember who all was involved but the sentiment was very common shortly after the end of the game.

    The end of that post was supposed to read as a counterpoint to the "we deserved better because we'd dominated the last six minutes/ The Nuggets didn't deserve anything because we'd been kicking their butts for the last six minutes" arguments in here. Its not a position I agree with. But even if you take that position, I don't think it works here.

    So even if you go on "deserved", I don't think you deserve a call when you dribble out the clock and the only move you make seems to be designed solely to get to the FT line. What else was he going to do? Shoot a long three in a tie game? Are the Pacers that bad at game/clock management? Again, underseving of a friendly whistle.

    My view is that the foul should have been called at 0:02.2., and that the Pacers got lucky that Iggy did not defend the play cleanly. And that's why the foul should have been called. But I was in the minority the other night that didn't mind foul at the other end of the court. I think the Nuggets also got lucky that Paul George slipped or something and also didn't defend that play cleanly. And that's why that foul was called. Both of which were unrelated to each other and both of which were fouls. Complain about consistency? Heck yes. Complain that "we deserved to play in OT"? Uh, no.

    sorry for the confustion. Clearly I'm not a fan of the "such-and-such deserved the call" stuff. And even more clearly from the feedback over the past hour I didn't express that thought well above.

    It reads like your battling "such-and-such deserved the call" with "you don't deserve a call when you dribble out the shot clock."

    I think both positions aren't right.

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    Default Re: NBA Acknowledges missed call at end of Denver game.

    Quote Originally Posted by TinManJoshua View Post
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    I don't think we "earned" a friendly whistle. But one of the big things coming out of the immediate post-game hurrah was that "we didn't play well enough the other 43 minutes to deserve to win". even tweeted out that the last two calls didn't matter because we didn't play well enough in the first three quarters to win. But we did play well enough in the fourth to win. We were a blown call away from either game winning free throws or overtime, with the way we were playing the last five minutes we could have won going away(not saying that's exactly how it would have went down, but the momentum swing was clear to me.)

    So while we didn't play well the first three quarters, we cranked it up in the 4th. It wasn't Denver getting sloppy, it was us "turning it on". We came back and had a tie game with 2 seconds left. You can't throw out the last five minutes because the first 43 didn't go well. We were in the game in winning time and that's all that matters.

    Edit: none of this is directed at you, it's just sort of what I've gleamed from the boards since the game.

    Oh, I was pumped up during that comeback! I was losing hope at the six minute mark and then by the last minute I was cheering so loud that I was scolded for yelling at the TV after bedtime. Especially when I yelled "GET THAT **** OUT OF HERE!" when Paul blocked the shot at the 28 second mark to give us a chance to play for the win in regulation.
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    Default Re: NBA Acknowledges missed call at end of Denver game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    It reads like your battling "such-and-such deserved the call" with "you don't deserve a call when you dribble out the shot clock."

    I think both positions aren't right.
    Well, I'm still butchering it then.

    Such-and-such deserved the call is wrong, period.

    But even if you ascribe to that, which I don't, if a player "deserves" a call I'd think it would be for the aggressive player trying to make something happen. In the case, dribbling down the shot clock from that far away from the basket is akin to a white flag. You aren't playing for the win, you're playing not to lose/ hoping for OT.

    There's some confusion here because I think this passive attitude and playing not to lose after the timeout at 0:16.8 is what cost the Pacers the game, not the officiating. And I'm not helping any by explaining it poorly. The Pacers wasted a great comeback over the last two possessions by playing not to lose, and then committing an unfortunate foul that led to Denvers GW FT. And this still pisses me off more than the blown call at 0:02.2.

    Let me try it this way: even if you think the call should have been made at 0:02.2 because the Pacers "deserved" it, I don't think they "deserved it". But I do think the foul should have been called because it WAS A FOUL! Period. And if you think the foul shouldn't have been called at 0:00.4 because the Nuggets didn't deserve it, then I think that fould should have been called because it was a foul. Unfortunately for my team.
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    Default Re: NBA Acknowledges missed call at end of Denver game.

    There's no point in arguing whether or not there should've been a call.

    The refs blew the call. The guys that employ the refs said that they blew the call.

    I wish we could just focus on the fact that the NBA came out and publicly said they made a mistake and it hurt the Pacers chances of winning. When was the last time they did that regarding a Pacers game?
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    Default Re: NBA Acknowledges missed call at end of Denver game.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I can understand this. Call the shot clock violation on Indiana's last possession and give Denver the ball at 0:01.8.

    But there's a problem with this. It's not one of your options. The league has implied (via silence) that the foul on Denver's last possession was valid. In other words, since both defenses committed fouls, both teams deserved opportunities to win the game at the line. It should have only gone to OT if both Iggy and Paul hit the same number of FTs in the last 2.2 seconds. Of course, Denver might have run something different with more than 0:00.5 on the clock, and down by 1 or 2 points.

    It's really an impure argument to say that what happened on the previous possession, or over the last five minutes, or who had momentum, should dictate whether a foul is called or not. If it is a foul in the second quarter, the same play is a foul at 0:02.2. I don't want the rules to change, via inconsistent enforcement, because of momentum, the time remaining on the clock, or giving the refs leeway to decide who morally "deserves" the call. That's the slippery slope that justifies the Superstar calls.

    If Paul George fouled Iggy, Iggy should be shooting. If iggy fouled Paul George, Paul should be shooting. "Letting the players decide" has become a license to foul, which favors the defense. I'd rather they force defenders to play without fouling.
    The overall problem of that was the inconsistency of the two calls. They should either call both or ignore both. That's the bottom line.

    They didn't do that and so they influenced the outcome of this particular game.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    And if you really want to talk about "deserving", we didn't play to win on that last possession. We played not to lose, to get to OT, and we got burned. I really wish Lance could've found a high percentage shot as he drove the lane before the Pacers called timeout at 0:16.8. The Nuggets were getting the ball back anyway. I'd rather run a play for a high percentage shot - without regard to milking the clock and force them to counter. That's playing to win vs. having one of our lesser ball dribble idly against one of the league's better defenders.
    Denver didn't play to win in the last 5:35 minutes.

    Neither team deserved to win in regulation.

    The game should have gone to overtime. That's my main argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    While I don't agree with the no-call at 0:02.2, we didn't "deserve" the foul call after dribbling out the clock.
    I never said we deserved that call. Personally, I would hate it. I agree completely with that no-call. I just think that Iggy's should be a no-call as well.
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    All Hail CJ Watson! Nuntius's Avatar
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    Default Re: NBA Acknowledges missed call at end of Denver game.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    In no way am I possibly advocating that fouls are based on who deserves the whistle.

    Nuntius is.
    That's not exactly what I'm advocating. I never said that the Pacers deserved that particular call. All I said was that the Nuggets didn't deserve the last call and that the game deserved to go to overtime.

    That's it.
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  31. #96
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: NBA Acknowledges missed call at end of Denver game.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I still disagree...the problem was starting the play with the ball in PG's hands. Should have started in Hill's hands, with a West pick-and-roll where you try to entice Iggy to rotate toward the ball and leave George open for a catch-and-shoot. Preferably from about 18 feet as we did not need to shoot a three in that situation. I don't mind him taking the shot in that situation, but I don't want him initiating the play.

    He's not a good enough one-on-one creator or ball handler to run an iso in that situation, and I'm really questioning his game awareness for holding the ball too long and settling - appearantly - for a three-pointer in a tie game.

    He did lower his shoulder as he was losing the ball. I didn't mind the no-call so much because one could also make a case for an offensive foul call. He was clearly playing for the foul call and FTs (which actually would have given Denver even more time on the clock, we couldn't run the game clock to zero if we did score on that possession), and I don't like to see players get "bailed out" when they are playing for the whistle instead of trying to score the ball.

    There was a lot of contact on that play, but I'm not convinced that the contact actually changed the outcome of the play itself. I think that play was heading for a shot clock violation/ turnover of some type any way.
    Irrelevant at the end of the day. What is relevant is that the Nuggets fouled and the Pacers didn't get the call that they obviously deserved and then didn't get an equal call seconds later the other way around. The NBA has owned up to that. That George had the ball in his hands was a choice that had nothing to do with the referees making a wrong/inconsistent call. That's the point.
    Last edited by Mourning; 02-02-2013 at 05:16 AM.
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