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Thread: Realistic pacers roster resignings.

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    Remember #31 dohman's Avatar
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    Default Realistic pacers roster resignings.

    I see everyone talk on a daily basis about what we can do and cannot do. I do not understand the salary cap or how it works. Can someone with some knowledge please explain who we can expect to keep?

    How much can we realistically offer each player? I see this team being two years out with the current roster. Will we be a.e to make it that far with who we have or what pieces can we expect to lose due to not having enough money?

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    Default Re: Realistic pacers roster resignings.

    Google nba CBA and you should be able to find several good sources

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    Remember #31 dohman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Realistic pacers roster resignings.

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23 View Post
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    Google nba CBA and you should be able to find several good sources

    Or I can simply ask someone who has more knowledge on the situation and not try to act like I understand something I don't. Of course that may be to much to ask on a forum that discusses basketball and the pacers huh.

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    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Realistic pacers roster resignings.

    Quote Originally Posted by dohman View Post
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    Or I can simply ask someone who has more knowledge on the situation and not try to act like I understand something I don't. Of course that may be to much to ask on a forum that discusses basketball and the pacers huh.
    Nobody is trying to downplay the question, it's just that there are a lot better written descriptions of the salary cap out there than someone is going to come up with writing on the forum. We're not talking about a 1-paragraph answer here, we're talking about a couple of pages to describe it thoroughly.
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    Remember #31 dohman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Realistic pacers roster resignings.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Nobody is trying to downplay the question, it's just that there are a lot better written descriptions of the salary cap out there than someone is going to come up with writing on the forum. We're not talking about a 1-paragraph answer here, we're talking about a couple of pages to describe it thoroughly.
    All I am looking for is. If we sign George we cannot afford granger but not west. I am not looking for figures or pages of numbers. I am just curious who can expect on keeping after we pay PG.

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    Default Re: Realistic pacers roster resignings.

    Quote Originally Posted by dohman View Post
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    All I am looking for is. If we sign George we cannot afford granger but not west. I am not looking for figures or pages of numbers. I am just curious who can expect on keeping after we pay PG.
    Then what you are looking for is one person's opinion. Which is going to very and get into another off-topic discussion that will go on forever and forever. That is exactly the way I pegged it when I was the first to answer your question. And, to avoid that, it is exactly why I suggested you take 10 minutes to read the appropriate portion of the CBA and form your own opinions. We know nothing more than you do, we just simply know where to look to form the fundamental understanding to formulate our own opinions.

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    Rooting My Family 2 Glory CooperManning's Avatar
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    Default Re: Realistic pacers roster resignings.

    If you're asking whether or not we can afford all five of: maxed out Paul George, Danny, D-West, Hibbert, and Hill, the answer is no. For it to be possible, Danny and D-West would both have to take pay cuts and Simon would having to be willing to dip into luxury tax. Neither is likely.

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    Default Re: Realistic pacers roster resignings.

    Quote Originally Posted by dohman View Post
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    I see everyone talk on a daily basis about what we can do and cannot do. I do not understand the salary cap or how it works. Can someone with some knowledge please explain who we can expect to keep?

    How much can we realistically offer each player? I see this team being two years out with the current roster. Will we be a.e to make it that far with who we have or what pieces can we expect to lose due to not having enough money?
    Assuming we can shed the final year of Green's 3.5M/yr contract in a trade, in the summer of 2014 we can offer Paul the max, Lance 5M/yr, and Danny about 8-9M/yr. All are "possible." This is assuming West will take about 9-10M/yr this summer and we pay no more than $5M/yr this summer on DJ/Hans or whoever their replacements are. I am hoping we can draft a good bench player on a rookie contract to supplement backup PF or PG and then spend $4M on the other position, which could net us a pretty good bench player. Under that scenario, we should stay under the tax, which is the absolute cap for a small market team.

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    Default Re: Realistic pacers roster resignings.

    Quote Originally Posted by CooperManning View Post
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    If you're asking whether or not we can afford all five of: maxed out Paul George, Danny, D-West, Hibbert, and Hill, the answer is no. For it to be possible, Danny and D-West would both have to take pay cuts and Simon would having to be willing to dip into luxury tax. Neither is likely.
    especially with the new revenue sharing system. You not only have to pay the harsher tax but you lose out on the new revenue sharing kind of like a double jeopardy situation for small markets(big market don't get the revenue sharing pie for staying under the tax so no real incentive not to pay the tax other than the insane dollar amount. and obviously if you are rebuilding no point to pay it. But teams like the Lakers with Time Warner Cable and the Knicks with MSG the tax wont be that big of a detractor IMO if the team makes enough to pay it. So if you are a team in win now mode it is a no brainier. However for a small market team it int that easy of choice. The new LT sharing will cover the losses that the Pacers normally have so paying the tax makes very little sense in almost any situation. ). We wont fully know this answer until the new LT goes into effect. It could slow down all the teams and thus guys like West and Granger's value could be deflated. It isn't likely IMO but possible. I am pretty sure teams like the Bucks Kings us ect. who don't make a lot off the tv deals and ticket revenue wont be willing to pay the tax. So it should deflate the value of the middle class player pretty good IMO. We have some smart guys in our FO who do contracts I know they will try to get creative when trying to make the money work so we can keep the team together.
    Last edited by pacer4ever; 01-27-2013 at 07:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Realistic pacers roster resignings.

    Quote Originally Posted by CooperManning View Post
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    If you're asking whether or not we can afford all five of: maxed out Paul George, Danny, D-West, Hibbert, and Hill, the answer is no. For it to be possible, Danny and D-West would both have to take pay cuts and Simon would having to be willing to dip into luxury tax. Neither is likely.
    And I disagree with that. With a luxury tax point of 74.5mil (likely a little more in 2 years) we can pay Hibbert his 15, Hill 8, PG 14, and both Granger and West 11 each. That's 59 mil on the starters with 15.5 mil to spend on a bench, it's tight but it can be done. Granger will have no choice but to take a paycut and West may make a little more then he is now. We don't get what we're paying for with our bench right now so I don't mind seeing a few players go. We'll have to keep our picks for the next 2 years though if we hope to keep the bench salary down.

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    Default Re: Realistic pacers roster resignings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    And I disagree with that. With a luxury tax point of 74.5mil (likely a little more in 2 years) we can pay Hibbert his 15, Hill 8, PG 14, and both Granger and West 11 each. That's 59 mil on the starters with 15.5 mil to spend on a bench, it's tight but it can be done. Granger will have no choice but to take a paycut and West may make a little more then he is now. We don't get what we're paying for with our bench right now so I don't mind seeing a few players go. We'll have to keep our picks for the next 2 years though if we hope to keep the bench salary down.
    Current lux tax threshold is $70.307 mil. Ian and Gerald Green make $7.5 mil between them. With the 59 that you just estimated (though I'd be surprised to see Danny sign for 11), that's $66.5 for seven players. Even if the tax raises a bit, it's a stretch.

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    Default Re: Realistic pacers roster resignings.

    Quote Originally Posted by CooperManning View Post
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    Current lux tax threshold is $70.307 mil. Ian and Gerald Green make $7.5 mil between them. With the 59 that you just estimated (though I'd be surprised to see Danny sign for 11), that's $66.5 for seven players. Even if the tax raises a bit, it's a stretch.
    I could have sworn I read an article about a month ago that the LT level increased to 74.5 but when I google it, it looks like you're right. I had already figured on Green and possible Ian being moved after PG was signed. Our bench does very little compared to some benches and our starters carry a larger load already. If I have to pick my poison and it means losing Ian to clear Green out or losing Danny, that's an easy choice. I think at 75 it's very possible to keep our core together, at 70 it would be very tough and require losing Lance and our current bench. We don't have to address that all at once though.

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    Default Re: Realistic pacers roster resignings.

    Quote Originally Posted by CooperManning View Post
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    If you're asking whether or not we can afford all five of: maxed out Paul George, Danny, D-West, Hibbert, and Hill, the answer is no. For it to be possible, Danny and D-West would both have to take pay cuts and Simon would having to be willing to dip into luxury tax. Neither is likely.
    I tend to agree, but obviously there are a lot of variables, like how much West and Granger's new contracts are going to be, what the lux tax level will be in a few years, even how well we do in the draft. But I do agree that chances are we'll be choosing between West and Granger in 2 years time, or even earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    especially with the new revenue sharing system. You not only have to pay the harsher tax but you lose out on the new revenue sharing kind of like a double jeopardy situation for small markets(big market don't get the revenue sharing pie for staying under the tax so no real incentive not to pay the tax other than the insane dollar amount. and obviously if you are rebuilding no point to pay it.
    The bolded part isn't quite right. There are two forms of revenue sharing, one is from lux tax payments and yes taxpaying teams lose out on a share of the tax payments. The other form of revenue sharing is strictly based on market size and revenue benchmarks, so this part won't be affected by the tax. These points are covered in Q22 and Q24 of Larry Coon's FAQ. But for the Pacers, both forms of revenue sharing are probably important so I agree that luxury tax isn't in our future. Even a fairly successful team like OKC is going out of their way to avoid it.

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    Default Re: Realistic pacers roster resignings.

    On a similar note, I see all these people talking about how we can't retain everyone because of penalties etc etc. My question is, what about Bird rights?? We own the Bird rights to PG24, Danny, Roy, Lance, and Tyler since we drafted them all (Maybe not Roy since we technically traded for him on draft night)....Doesn't that give us the ability to go above and beyond the salary cap in order to retain them??

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    Default Re: Realistic pacers roster resignings.

    Quote Originally Posted by ejwallace View Post
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    On a similar note, I see all these people talking about how we can't retain everyone because of penalties etc etc. My question is, what about Bird rights?? We own the Bird rights to PG24, Danny, Roy, Lance, and Tyler since we drafted them all (Maybe not Roy since we technically traded for him on draft night)....Doesn't that give us the ability to go above and beyond the salary cap in order to retain them??
    We have Roy's Bird rights. He's been here 3 years.

    BTW, Larry Coon has a great FAQ for the NBA CBA. It is an easy read and will answer basically whatever question you have about the NBA and its trading rules. Here is the link

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    Default Re: Realistic pacers roster resignings.

    resign or RE-SIGN?
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



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    Default Re: Realistic pacers roster resignings.

    Quote Originally Posted by xIndyFan View Post
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    We have Roy's Bird rights. He's been here 3 years.

    BTW, Larry Coon has a great FAQ for the NBA CBA. It is an easy read and will answer basically whatever question you have about the NBA and its trading rules. Here is the link
    Many thanks good sir....

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    Default Re: Realistic pacers roster resignings.

    Quote Originally Posted by ejwallace View Post
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    On a similar note, I see all these people talking about how we can't retain everyone because of penalties etc etc. My question is, what about Bird rights?? We own the Bird rights to PG24, Danny, Roy, Lance, and Tyler since we drafted them all (Maybe not Roy since we technically traded for him on draft night)....Doesn't that give us the ability to go above and beyond the salary cap in order to retain them??
    The Pacers can keep everybody (with a few caveats) under NBA rules. For the Pacers it's a financial decision why they wouldn't be able to keep everyone. Going into the luxury tax costs quite a bit of money both from the tax the team would have to pay and the loss of their share of the tax that other teams pay. From many comments that Bird made last year, the expectation is that the Pacers are unwilling to lose all that money by going into the luxury tax. And it may not be possible (some would say it's rather unlikely) to be able to keep everyone and still stay under the luxury tax level.

    So that's why people are talking about not retaining everyone. They think the Pacers will follow the model that OKC already did and Memphis likely will do in the future by sacrificing a key piece to stay under the luxury tax level.

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    Default Re: Realistic pacers roster resignings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cubs231721 View Post
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    The Pacers can keep everybody (with a few caveats) under NBA rules. For the Pacers it's a financial decision why they wouldn't be able to keep everyone. Going into the luxury tax costs quite a bit of money both from the tax the team would have to pay and the loss of their share of the tax that other teams pay. From many comments that Bird made last year, the expectation is that the Pacers are unwilling to lose all that money by going into the luxury tax. And it may not be possible (some would say it's rather unlikely) to be able to keep everyone and still stay under the luxury tax level.

    So that's why people are talking about not retaining everyone. They think the Pacers will follow the model that OKC already did and Memphis likely will do in the future by sacrificing a key piece to stay under the luxury tax level.
    Gotcha....I was under the belief that Bird rights wouldn't get calculated in and push you into the LT area....My mistake.

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    Default Re: Realistic pacers roster resignings.

    I could be all wet from reading the Coon article on the CBA, but it appears to me the main questions we have to answer this year is 1. How much will David West be offered by other teams. 2. Do we want/intend to keep Tyler at his qualifying offer($4+ million), Pendy(1.7?) and do we wish to keep DJ as the back PG and for how much. Next year, we face DG, Lance and PG contracts being up as well. If the salary cap does not take a pretty good increase we will not be able to keep the team together even if we want to.

  28. #21

    Default Re: Realistic pacers roster resignings.

    If Danny is back, in form, the only big questions I see for next season is 1. How much will DWest cost us to keep(I'm thinking $12). 2. Who do we replace DJA with and for how much. 3. Do we pay another million+ to keep Tyler?
    I see Tyler and Pendy walking and using their money to re-sign West.
    If OJ and Plumlee can become our 2nd unit 2 and 4, we move Lance to the backup PG and draft the best PG/PF we can find for our team. Approx. $55 million for our top 10 players? $62m min. to keep DJA and Hans. What ya'll think?

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    Default Re: Realistic pacers roster resignings.

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    resign or RE-SIGN?

    Thank you! Resign is probably the most misused word on this form.

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