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Thread: RicBucher, Pacers interested in JJ Redick.

  1. #151
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    Default Re: RicBucher, Pacers interested in JJ Redick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    If Danny is back to a physical level of his Most Improved Player sesaon, any notion of trading him is ridiculous and deserves flaming.
    If he's back to last year's level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    Unfortunately, my guess is that there is at least a chance that Granger may primarily be a "stretch 4" who is a defensive liability at this point, and the Pacers cannot afford to pay a "stretch 4" who is a defensive liability what Granger is being paid. Indiana is not a large market, and unless he can return to being a much quicker and more explosive player with better lateral movement, the Pacers cannot afford to carry his contract, especially when he is not being relied on this season.
    Excuse me but how is this a possibility? Did he have an ACL injury? Did he break his leg? Nothing of that happened.

    From what we know it's patellar tendonosis. Here's yet another article about it -> http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cm...articleid=1393

    It's not a bad enough injury to make someone change their whole playstyle. It cannot cripple a player's career.

    It's mostly a condition. Athletes should be careful when they have this condition and they shouldn't play through pain as it could lead to a more significant injury.

    But it isn't enough to turn Danny Granger into a "stretch 4". It isn't enough to turn him into DeJuan Blair. He still has all of his ACLs. His knees are not shot. They are just strained and could use the rest.

    Therefore, we have no reason to assume that he will become a stretch 4 that is a defensive liability. Is there a chance? Sure. There's a chance for everything. But I wouldn't bet on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    Also, in my opinion, Davis could be better than Tyler given an opportunity to play with a better team with better coaching.
    Glen Davis is better than Tyler at this point. There is one thing that Tyler is doing better. That's going to the line. In order to reap the benefits of going to the line a player has to play big minutes. And Tyler cannot play big minutes until he gets his jump shot back.
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  3. #152
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    Default Re: RicBucher, Pacers interested in JJ Redick.

    Here is a trade that could possibly work. Goes with JJ and Davis coming here that some are talking about on here. I personally don't like it, but it is interesting.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=b4qyqqd

    Pacers get:
    JJ Redick and Glen Davis

    Spurs get:
    Danny Granger

    Magic get: Stephen Jackson, Cory Joseph, Miles Plumlee, Orlando Johnson and 1st round pick from Spurs.
    .

    Frank Vogel says "Killer instinct, start strong, build a lead and then step on their throats."

  4. #153

    Default Re: RicBucher, Pacers interested in JJ Redick.

    How screwed up is it that I would rather trade West for Davis and Redick than Granger? Davis provides roughly the same production as West at half the cost and 5 years younger. If Granger is never dealt, I have more faith in the Pacers being able to re-sign Granger at a reasonable contract than West. A 33 year old West is not worth the $10+ million he's going to command given his production compared to similar power forwards making much less.

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    Default Re: RicBucher, Pacers interested in JJ Redick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    There are some differences, though:

    1) Foster's contract didn't inhibit our ability to go after the players we wanted or resign our starters. There's a reason that his contract ended in the off-season in which we planned to make our moves.

    2) Foster deserved the retirement money.

    Simply put, we could afford such a contract last season. Especially to a player that offered so much to our ball club. We had cap space so his contract never hurt us. It just hurt Simon's pocket. Not the team. But we can no longer afford such a contract.

    Your differences hold water like a sieve.

    1) Signing Foster to a 2 year 12.6 mil contract early in the season contributed to not being able to re-sign Jack.

    2) Loyalty only goes so far. I didn't see Foster giving back any of his salary when he only played 16-17 games the 1st year of that contract at 6 mil out of loyalty to Herb Simon and the Pacers. Let's not even mention getting paid 3 mil for retiring mid-season last year. His contributions to the Pacers were so much more valuable than the loyalty ownership gave him?? Just SMH.

    It just hurt Simon's pocketbook, and Foster deserved the retirement money. WOW! That's probably 2 of the weakest comments I've seen posted on PD in sometime. I'm truly disappointed it came from you, a poster who I GREATLY ADMIRE.

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    Default Re: RicBucher, Pacers interested in JJ Redick.

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Danny+Tyler+Green for Redick+Big Baby+Mcbob works, Redick can replace some of Danny's scoring and he can also bring that ball movement and passing we have been asking for in a long time, Big Baby can replace Tyler(he is averaging 15 and 7).

    Pacers starting unit: Hill, Redick, Paul George, West and Hibbert.
    Hell no

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    Default Re: RicBucher, Pacers interested in JJ Redick.

    Quote Originally Posted by croz24 View Post
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    How screwed up is it that I would rather trade West for Davis and Redick than Granger? Davis provides roughly the same production as West at half the cost and 5 years younger. If Granger is never dealt, I have more faith in the Pacers being able to re-sign Granger at a reasonable contract than West. A 33 year old West is not worth the $10+ million he's going to command given his production compared to similar power forwards making much less.
    I agree 110%...West is being overrated at his late age! Scares me to contract him to big.
    .

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    Default Re: RicBucher, Pacers interested in JJ Redick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Your differences hold water like a sieve.

    1) Signing Foster to a 2 year 12.6 mil contract early in the season contributed to not being able to re-sign Jack.
    We had Jarret Jack during the 08 - 09 season. In hindsight, it did impact our ability to resign Jarret Jack.

    But did we want him? If we wanted him, we could make a run for him when we had more capspace. We had options. But we chose to go after Hill and DJ Augustin.

    I also have to point out that Jack has grown a bit as a player the last two years. He wasn't great in Toronto or in his first year in NOLA.

    I'd love to have Jack this season. But I wasn't following the Pacers the year we had Jack so I cannot judge how he played then and if he deserved to get the contract he was asking for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    2) Loyalty only goes so far. I didn't see Foster giving back any of his salary when he only played 16-17 games the 1st year of that contract at 6 mil out of loyalty to Herb Simon and the Pacers. Let's not even mention getting paid 3 mil for retiring mid-season last year. His contributions to the Pacers were so much more valuable than the loyalty ownership gave him?? Just SMH.
    A player has to perform and play 100% for his club. When a player gives you 110% for so many years then I have no problem if the ownership is going to give the player some more money than he deserves as long as it doesn't hurt a team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    It just hurt Simon's pocketbook, and Foster deserved the retirement money. WOW! That's probably 2 of the weakest comments I've seen posted on PD in sometime. I'm truly disappointed it came from you, a poster who I GREATLY ADMIRE.
    Sorry to disappoint you but I truly believe that loyalty to a team should be rewarded.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

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    Default Re: RicBucher, Pacers interested in JJ Redick.

    Quote Originally Posted by croz24 View Post
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    How screwed up is it that I would rather trade West for Davis and Redick than Granger? Davis provides roughly the same production as West at half the cost and 5 years younger. If Granger is never dealt, I have more faith in the Pacers being able to re-sign Granger at a reasonable contract than West. A 33 year old West is not worth the $10+ million he's going to command given his production compared to similar power forwards making much less.
    It is screwed up. Davis is doing it on a rebuilding (if not a bad one) team with a losing record and I really doubt that Davis would be able to assume West's leading skills on offense and off the court.
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    Default Re: RicBucher, Pacers interested in JJ Redick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Sorry to disappoint you but I truly believe that loyalty to a team should be rewarded.


    We definately have a different view on how loyalty works.

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    Default Re: RicBucher, Pacers interested in JJ Redick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    We definately have a different view on how loyalty works.
    Paying somebody 6mil for loyalty lol

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    Default Re: RicBucher, Pacers interested in JJ Redick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    We definately have a different view on how loyalty works.
    Don't you think that a player that spends the entirety of his career in one team is loyal?

    If not, then we do have a different view on how loyalty works.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

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    Default Re: RicBucher, Pacers interested in JJ Redick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    If not, then we do have a different view on how loyalty works.

    Staying with a team doesn't necessarily have anyhing to do with loyalty. It could be b/c they like the team, they can make more money with their team, their family likes the city they live in, it's better for their career with their team, etc.

    I kept a job for years not out of loyalty, but b/c it met certain criteria that was quite beneficial to me. I was one of the best at what I did. I owed them no loyalty b/c I rec'd a paycheck from them, and they owed me no loyalty just b/c I gave them years of service.

    Stacey Paetz interviewed Foster at a game, and he stated he didn't want to leave the Pacers and wanted to come back. He waved the flag then he would take less money to stay. Why pay him millions more out of what you call loyalty in the "sunset of his career"? He was getting paid millions as it was. The 1st and foremost thing about professional sports is it's a business. He knew his career was winding down, and he had a history of injury problems. You want to reward his loyalty give him a car when he retired not mils that cause the team possible problems retaining players or getting other players.

    Again, we have a different view about what loyalty is.

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    Default Re: RicBucher, Pacers interested in JJ Redick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    mils that cause the team possible problems retaining players or getting other players.
    Did it cause any problems, though?

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Again, we have a different view about what loyalty is.
    Yes, we have.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

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    Default Re: RicBucher, Pacers interested in JJ Redick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Did it cause any problems, though?

    You see Jack in the Pacers uni?

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    Default Re: RicBucher, Pacers interested in JJ Redick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    You see Jack in the Pacers uni?
    I didn't see us making a move for him when we could either.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

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  22. #166
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    Default Re: RicBucher, Pacers interested in JJ Redick.

    There is only one way Redick fits here - if you take my view that the primary goal should be to keep the core 5 together for 3 more years (at least) and that this will run the RISK of not being able to keep Lance, and then you look at Lance regressing this season which puts a bit more weight against the "he's just about to take off" view, then trading Lance + pick for Redick makes a lot of sense for Indy.

    What that is doing is basically letting Lance go a year earlier than you will have to in exchange to have the extra bench scoring that you need right now. Even when Danny returns the team has a problem with Lance and Green not scoring well at all and not being reliable to recover for the playoffs. Swapping Lance for Redick while also adding DG would definitely seem to be a "over the top" move for the Pacers this season.

    Next year you are without Redick or Lance, and that's a setback, but we've had some signs that maybe OJ can become a solid bench scorer and the FA/trade market in general for those issues is a long way off.


    I agree that Orlando might not have interest in Lance and might be able to get better, but I'd certainly offer it to them as MAStamper suggested.




    You 100% do not trade Danny this year, it makes zero sense. And DWest??? Did people not watch the Utah game where he was the main defensive stopper for the critical parts of the game. All the insider comments are what a key piece he is, how great his leadership is. Denari was talking about how much he noticed West calling out the defense during the TNT game where he got to watch rather than working the game. Everyone is talking about West being the team vet QB, the persona that Bird as a coach brought to the Pacers or maybe a Mark Jackson.

    Basketball is a game/competition with rules and strategy, it's not just a straight-up athletic performance. Knowing how to win the game is a real skill with extremely high value. And that's not "how to draw fouls" and that BS stuff, I mean reading the floor and knowing where you have advantages or disadvantages and what you can do to make the most/least of those. West brings that more than any other skill and it means wins.

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    Default Re: RicBucher, Pacers interested in JJ Redick.

    I don't get the Danny hate and now more recently, the David West hate.

    I've read in game threads people bash his attitude, calling it "****-poor" and calling him worthless.

    The guy (D.West) has put the team on his back multiple times this season. Some people just don't know how to be happy with things. We have a pretty damn good thing going here, and all I ever read is bickering and complaining.

    Trading Danny this year would be one of the dumbest moves of all-time. We haven't even seen this team 100% yet.

    But then again this is the same board that calls players like George Hill and David West worthless after a few losses....so what do you expect.

    I'd like to get JJ, but no way if it means trading Danny. I mean come on.
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    Default Re: RicBucher, Pacers interested in JJ Redick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Man, how times change. The last infraction I got on this forum (lo these many years ago) was from a guy pushing for us to acquire JJ Redick.

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthre...kulous-Thought!

    It hurts me to say it, but that guy (long since gone) was right and I was wrong. I didn't think Redick would still be in the NBA after his rookie contract.
    What?!? You're being too hard on yourself.

    I'll ignore this line of argument, other than to say that in my opinion, Jeff's career has more left in it than JJ's.


    To be fair to the subject, Redick had to develop his game in a way that a lot of players with his NCAA experience don't. This idea that guys suddenly change drastically as a normal thing is wrong. I recall someone posting some McBob highlights from Duke and they were the same types of dribbles, passes, back-door oops and everything else he was showing here in Indy. For a time I did a lot of amateur NCAA scouting and I can't think of a player yet that has really played a lot differently than they did in college. Guys improve their shot a little, get some confidence or maybe a little strength, and maybe coaches and players just learn how to interact with them better, but non-rebounders don't suddenly start knocking guys off the block and ripping away boards.

    And a catch and shoot screen runner that is undersized for having the speed of an average SF and not quick enough for an NBA SG is not normally the kind of guy that figures something out and takes off. To me Redick is the classic MIP type of player, a guy who doesn't just get more minutes where only his raw numbers improve due to volume of play but rather is a guy who actually really improves his game in a couple of critical ways. He improved his strength IMO, and in statistical terms he learned to pass better (his AP36 went up) and learned to play better defense and to "keep up" which resulted in a noticeable drop in his FoulsP36.

    He always had the 3pt shot and could run off screens, but he started getting more minutes when he learned to play the other end of the court at a higher level.

    And back in 2008 I think the idea was more of a comparison to Reggie, and JJ has never developed that FTA game or overall scorers game. He still takes a large PCT of his shots from behind the arc, a higher PCT than Reggie ever did (like 50% vs 33%). This is why I still wouldn't trade for him as the starting SG. But as the specialist 3pt guy he'd give you what Green and Lance haven't been able to the last month or so.

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    Default Re: RicBucher, Pacers interested in JJ Redick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer Fan View Post
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    Here is a trade that could possibly work. Goes with JJ and Davis coming here that some are talking about on here. I personally don't like it, but it is interesting.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=b4qyqqd

    Pacers get:
    JJ Redick and Glen Davis

    Spurs get:
    Danny Granger

    Magic get: Stephen Jackson, Cory Joseph, Miles Plumlee, Orlando Johnson and 1st round pick from Spurs.
    Whoa. Granger, Miles, and OJ for Redick and Big Baby? Overpay much?

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  30. #170

    Default Re: RicBucher, Pacers interested in JJ Redick.

    JJ's 5-5 from 3 in the 1st qtr. against the Pistons. Dude's got it stuck on auto right now.

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    Default Re: RicBucher, Pacers interested in JJ Redick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doddage View Post
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    Whoa. Granger, Miles, and OJ for Redick and Big Baby? Overpay much?
    It's an example to go with others idea of a trade. As I said, I don't agree with it.
    .

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    Default Re: RicBucher, Pacers interested in JJ Redick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Staying with a team doesn't necessarily have anyhing to do with loyalty. It could be b/c they like the team, they can make more money with their team, their family likes the city they live in, it's better for their career with their team, etc.

    I kept a job for years not out of loyalty, but b/c it met certain criteria that was quite beneficial to me. I was one of the best at what I did. I owed them no loyalty b/c I rec'd a paycheck from them, and they owed me no loyalty just b/c I gave them years of service.

    Stacey Paetz interviewed Foster at a game, and he stated he didn't want to leave the Pacers and wanted to come back. He waved the flag then he would take less money to stay. Why pay him millions more out of what you call loyalty in the "sunset of his career"? He was getting paid millions as it was. The 1st and foremost thing about professional sports is it's a business. He knew his career was winding down, and he had a history of injury problems. You want to reward his loyalty give him a car when he retired not mils that cause the team possible problems retaining players or getting other players.

    Again, we have a different view about what loyalty is.
    IIRC, Foster was being offered more by San Antonio than the Pacers could afford, and yet chose to stay here. So, yes, Foster showed his loyalty to the Pacers, and the Pacers reciprocated.

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    The notion of DWest being overrated is completely insane to me. This team is not a contender without that man in our locker room, period. Big Baby Davis is sure as hell not changing that.
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    Default Re: RicBucher, Pacers interested in JJ Redick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    A player has to perform and play 100% for his club. When a player gives you 110% for so many years then I have no problem if the ownership is going to give the player some more money than he deserves as long as it doesn't hurt a team.
    Joining the convo late, but I think you can reward loyal players in many ways, like giving them a job in the FO. Or a Bentley, as in Reggie's case. The idea of giving players "thank you" contracts at the end of their careers is just bad cap management.

    Now whether Jeff's (and Reggie's) last contract was a loyalty reward or just simply another bad contract is open to question. We wouldn't be the first team to give large $$$ to players who we thought could play, but turned out to be injury plagued.

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    Default Re: RicBucher, Pacers interested in JJ Redick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ant View Post
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    The notion of DWest being overrated is completely insane to me. This team is not a contender without that man in our locker room, period. Big Baby Davis is sure as hell not changing that.
    You can not possibly know that until we go on a losing streak of epic proportions and miss the playoffs without him. Unfortunately right now I consider the Pacers pretenders. I've been so high on them for the past few years I have already started to grow tired of Vogel's maddening rotations. I think we are no better than we were two years ago when Vogel took over other than the development of our young players. This team is not going to beat Miami or Chicago with a healthy Rose in 7. As good as Paul George is, this team is still lacking. David West is the best scorer from the PF position I've seen the Pacers have, JO included, but trust me he is no Dale Davis with his rebounding or defense either, even though he is good. He is a good player that I'm starting to think is way overvalued around here. Definitely not worth a quarter of the salary cap, but neither is Hibbert but at least he is elite defensively. West is not an elite scorer even though he is more than solid. Lebron is elite. Duncan is elite. West is not. He is not going to put the team on his back and win you a championship.

    My point is if Orlando had Howard last year it would have been no different than the Series with Chicago the year before. We just didn't match up well enough with either team to beat them in a series. But beating up on a shell of the Orlando team that dominated us for years and being up 2-1 on the champs was the biggest fools gold I've ever witnessed as a Pacers fan. We lost the next three in such a manner that has me questioning this teams true ceiling. West may be the weakest link in the chain defensively for the starters. If not him then who? You could argue Lance or Hill, but I tend to think they both are better defenders at their position that West is, and I'm not that high on Hill. He definitely is not a better defender than Granger, so when healthy you are arguing between West and Hill being the weakest link.

    I think this team is better constructed for the power forward to be our fifth option. I think Hill needs his touches, Granger, George, Hibbert. They all need theirs. But that would only work if we had a real point guard that can create for others and also play defense, and we haven't had that since Mark Jackson. (Just leave Tinsley out of this, please). Maybe it is the offensive system we run. Maybe remnants of the JOB days still linger hence why our assist numbers are still bottoms of the NBA.

    Granger or no Granger our system is not championship quality. We don't have good enough shooters or good enough creators at the wing positions. You need one or the other, and we have neither, hopefully only until Lance develops more and gets past his growing pains. West or no West, we will be lucky to get out of the second round. Home court chances are fading fast and I don't think we could take Miami, Brooklyn, Chicago, or the Knicks. We don't have a Lebron, or Dwade, or Rose, or Carmello, so what does it matter? We have borderline All Stars, and unfortunately to win championships in this league you seem to need at least one perennial All Star starter. Our road record makes me believe if we don't have any type of HCA, we will not escape the first round.

    Ok that may be most negative post ever. I'm just going to stop there. I literally turned off the other game early in the third the other night and just left. It's like I don't even get excited about this team anymore. We are starting to slide towards a first round exit in the playoffs.

    Yes our defense is great, but our offense and careless turnovers are just sickening to watch. That is not Pacers basketball. I want Reggie era basketball. Reggie was a pure shooter, and I can't think of one since. And it doesn't surprise me we haven't sniffed the Finals since and I don't think we will until we have at least one.

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