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Thread: Vogel-had-no-choice-but-to-bench-gerald-green/Mike Wells

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    Default Vogel-had-no-choice-but-to-bench-gerald-green/Mike Wells

    I'm glad to see that Vogel can finally see the light, hopefully he doesn't play the guy for the rest of the year or his contract.

    Pacers: Vogel had no choice but to bench Gerald Green
    47 minutes ago | Written by Mike Wells | 1 Comments
    MEMPHIS, Tenn. – It takes a lot for Pacers coach Frank Vogel to take a player out of the rotation.

    That’s Vogel’s style, continue to give the players he considers important opportunities until they run out of chances.

    He gave D.J. Augustin countless opportunities to get on track before benching him for a couple of weeks. Augustin, like Vogel predicted, ended up back in the rotation.

    Vogel sat Roy Hibbert on the bench for the entire fourth quarter against Atlanta last month because of the Big Fellas’ poor play.

    And no matter how many times the media asked about Gerald Green’s atrocious shooting, Vogel stood behind his swingman by saying he felt like Green would eventually find his shooting touch.

    But things changed Monday afternoon at the Fed Ex Forum on Memphis.

    Vogel benched Green for the entire second half against the Grizzlies. Green played six minutes in the first half, missing all three of his shots and putting up doughnuts across the board in every other category.

    Rookie Orlando Johnson got Green’s minutes in the second half.

    You can’t be mad at Vogel for making the move. Something had to be done.

    The coaching staff constantly encouraged Green to look for his shot.

    The more Green shot, the more he missed.

    He’s shooting 35 percent from the field, including 29-percent on 3-pointers, this season.

    That won’t cut it.

    Green has shown few signs of being the player that put up points in New Jersey last season.

    This just proves that he can put up points on a bad team, but struggles finding his role on a good team.

    It’ll be interesting to see if Vogel goes back to Green against Portland on Wednesday or hands his minutes to Johnson, who has drastically improved since training camp.

    You can’t fault Vogel, only Green, if Johnson is now the first wing player off the bench for the Pacers at the Rose Garden.


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    Default Re: Vogel-had-no-choice-but-to-bench-gerald-green/Mike Wells

    It's fair enough given the number of chances he got. I still believe he can get it together at some point. He just needs to prove he's worth the minutes he's getting. Maybe it will help him like how it helped DJ.

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    Default Re: Vogel-had-no-choice-but-to-bench-gerald-green/Mike Wells

    I like what I'm seeing from OJ.
    .

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    Default Re: Vogel-had-no-choice-but-to-bench-gerald-green/Mike Wells

    My guess is he'll see time again tomorrow.

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    Default Re: Vogel-had-no-choice-but-to-bench-gerald-green/Mike Wells

    I would pull him out just like we did with DJ for a few weeks and see if that works.

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    Default Re: Vogel-had-no-choice-but-to-bench-gerald-green/Mike Wells

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I would pull him out just like we did with DJ for a few weeks and see if that works.
    I think the guy can ultimately be a contributor on this team. I bet that giving him some time off on the bench will light a fire in him and encourage him to change up his routine.

    He's not going anywhere (we would have to give up an asset to get rid of him at this point), so they might as well try a different approach with him.

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    Default Re: Vogel-had-no-choice-but-to-bench-gerald-green/Mike Wells

    Also, the guy does not have confidence in his shot. He keeps taking them and he should, but his stroke is off and it's obvious. A little time off and some extra time in the gym shooting jumpers would be a great thing for him. Sometimes guys like Gerald need to "find their square". A lot of his shots up to this point have been when he is not squared away to the basket. A lot of really athletic guys will have this problem because they are jumpers. The higher you jump, the more likely you are to be "off" of square. I've noticed this in a lot of his jumpers. HE shoots a lot of off-balance shots and his in-balance shots have still been somewhat off-balance. I think he just needs to spend some extra time shooting and focus on getting square. The more of a threat he is to shoot from the perimeter provides a lot more opportunity for him to get to the rim, which is what we should be focusing on within our offensive flow.
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    Default Re: Vogel-had-no-choice-but-to-bench-gerald-green/Mike Wells

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I would pull him out just like we did with DJ for a few weeks and see if that works.
    The question is who to replace him with? McGuire? The Pacers aren't likely to drop down to three wings at the moment. I think you may see Orlando and Green's roles switch for a couple weeks, but until Granger or even Sam Young comes back Green probably won't fall completely out of the rotation.

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    Default Re: Vogel-had-no-choice-but-to-bench-gerald-green/Mike Wells

    I posted last week that it is a players job to take good shots within the offense. And I generally believe that Green did just that., However it is the coaches job to sit a player if they aren't getting it done even though they are taking good shots within the offense.

    Having said that, the reason why I don't think Green should get minutes has really nothing to do with his shooting. He has no clue how to play basketball. I mean really he has no clue

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    Default Re: Vogel-had-no-choice-but-to-bench-gerald-green/Mike Wells

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I posted last week that it is a players job to take good shots within the offense. And I generally believe that Green did just that., However it is the coaches job to sit a player if they aren't getting it done even though they are taking good shots within the offense.

    Having said that, the reason why I don't think Green should get minutes has really nothing to do with his shooting. He has no clue how to play basketball. I mean really he has no clue
    Freakish ability to jump really high and making amazing dunks. That's all I can recognise to him. Other than that, meh.
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    Default Re: Vogel-had-no-choice-but-to-bench-gerald-green/Mike Wells

    Green needs to take a page from PG and start putting up 500-800 shots each day. You just can't solve low BBIQ players. Pacers should try to avoid those. Even Hans has a low BBIQ.

    Thank goodness Vogel finally benched his stupid ***. OJ did have some bad TOs, but he at least made his shot and played decent defense. Green's defense is well below average, he's always losing his man off the ball. He just takes bad shot after bad shot.
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    Default Re: Vogel-had-no-choice-but-to-bench-gerald-green/Mike Wells

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    He has no clue how to play basketball. I mean really he has no clue
    This! He is an athlete, not a very good basketball player.

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    Default Re: Vogel-had-no-choice-but-to-bench-gerald-green/Mike Wells

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I like what I'm seeing from OJ.
    OJ is the man. He makes his fair share of mistakes, but he usually makes good basketball decisions and never hurts the team. He will be a solid rotational player off the bench in the future.

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    Default Re: Vogel-had-no-choice-but-to-bench-gerald-green/Mike Wells

    I hate to admit it, but I know I was fooled by Green's play last year. Thought this was the 2nd best bench pickup after Ian. Now it's looking like Ian was the only bench pickup that was worth anything of real value.

    DJ has been better, but let's not kid ourselves. Most would want to see a different backup pg playing than DJ.
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    Default Re: Vogel-had-no-choice-but-to-bench-gerald-green/Mike Wells

    It would be nice if he played well a couple of times before the trading deadline.

    Its risky over the summer to assume that your second round draft choice is going to contribute as one of the wings actually in the playing rotation. So it makes sense to sign an inexpensive veteran. In Green's case, its not necessarily the dollars he's making this year, its that we're signed up for two more years of this.

    Ugh.



    Hoping that OJ plays well enough to keep Green pinned to the end of the bench. That's ultimately a good sign for our team.
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    Default Re: Vogel-had-no-choice-but-to-bench-gerald-green/Mike Wells

    It's good to give OJ some run anyways to see if he can produce. Green is giving no production anyways so what is it really hurting by not having him out there?
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    Default Re: Vogel-had-no-choice-but-to-bench-gerald-green/Mike Wells

    Quote Originally Posted by Johanvil View Post
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    Freakish ability to jump really high and making amazing dunks. That's all I can recognise to him. Other than that, meh.
    That is usually all it takes to make a player a fan favorite ala McDudd.......

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    Default Re: Vogel-had-no-choice-but-to-bench-gerald-green/Mike Wells

    I've got to say, I've been pretty surprised with the way OJ has come on. I'd never seen him play before the summer league, and it was weird watching him. He had the LOOK of an NBA player, and would make solid moves on offense, but he couldn't buy a bucket to save his life. I don't remember his numbers, but they were awful. He'd break his man down, get to the rim, and miss the layup. It looks like that's resolving itself nicely.

    I've missed a couple of the games where he's gotten significant run, but he seems a guy that can become a really solid backup wing for us. Not a future superstar, but somebody you can put out on the floor and trust that they're not going to blow the play. His decision-making seems pretty solid for a rookie.
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    Default Re: Vogel-had-no-choice-but-to-bench-gerald-green/Mike Wells

    Yeah, for now I have OJ pegged as a solid backup wing on a good team as he continues to develop into a pro. Not sure he's more than that. But that's fine for us.

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    Default Re: Vogel-had-no-choice-but-to-bench-gerald-green/Mike Wells

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    That is usually all it takes to make a player a fan favorite ala McDudd.......
    Once again you show you know absolutely nothing about what you are talking about. If you think McBob and Green have similar basketball IQ's, there is no hope for you ever having the cognitive ability to understanding anything about sports in general.
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    Default Re: Vogel-had-no-choice-but-to-bench-gerald-green/Mike Wells

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparhawk View Post
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    I hate to admit it, but I know I was fooled by Green's play last year. Thought this was the 2nd best bench pickup after Ian. Now it's looking like Ian was the only bench pickup that was worth anything of real value.
    I wonder how much the Pacers scouts, GM, front office people actually watched Green in person. I ask that again because if you just see Green in small doses, he can fool you. Last year he looked like a great athlete (which he is) and an adequate shooter (which he still might be) the problem is unless you see him more than a handfull of games you might easily overlook his inability to play basketball.

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    Default Re: Vogel-had-no-choice-but-to-bench-gerald-green/Mike Wells

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I wonder how much the Pacers scouts, GM, front office people actually watched Green in person. I ask that again because if you just see Green in small doses, he can fool you. Last year he looked like a great athlete (which he is) and an adequate shooter (which he still might be) the problem is unless you see him more than a handfull of games you might easily overlook his inability to play basketball.
    I presume that everyone saw these comments on Gerald Green from Mark Cuban a few years ago?

    http://www.thetwomangame.com/2010/03...oan-yesterday/

    Sometimes it’s hard to get coaches, managers, and owners to speak up concerning the current goings-on of the team. Everything is played so close to the chest, and it’s almost like the media and the team stand diametrically opposed at times. Consumers of sports media want to know how things work — what went into making this decision, why this guy and not that guy, etc. — and ask the almighty “Why?” But the members of the team itself are also somewhat reliant on keeping that information internal. After all, you never know who might hear what, and specifics are, in this case at least, a team’s worst enemy.

    But I applauded Mark Cuban’s willingness to talk about some of the Mavs’ decisions in the past, if only because it helps those of us on the outside to fill in the gaps. It’s nice to know why this or that was done, even if it’s a year or two later. And then again, sometimes when talking about decisions from the past, guys like Cuban still tip their hand a bit (perhaps intentionally). Read as much into this quote from Cuban as you’d like:

    Sometimes [the players] need prompting [to figure out the best play], and the ones who don’t figure it out…I mean it’s true that’s a great point theres a subset of players that don’t figure it out, that cant figure it out, that don’t think. Those are the ones that are so blessed talent-wise that you try to make it work — like we had Gerald Green. [To the Celtics' Mike Zarren] You guys have had Gerald Green.

    I just look at him and think ‘Oh my God!’ There are things that he’ll show you that are just ‘Oh my God!’ and then he just doesn’t understand the game of basketball and hopefully he’ll figure it out someday but you just keep giving him those chances. He ran out of chances (so far) this last time.

    On its own, I think he’s just talking about the hyper-athletic Gerald Green and players of his ilk. But this topic was a recurring theme for Cuban in many of his panels: a guy that just can’t figure it out, that doesn’t think on the court, that isn’t a smart basketball player. Now, I could be mistaken here, but I seem to remember a lot of similar criticism being lobbed at a guy who played for the Mavs not too long ago. It would be completely unfair of Mark to take explicit pot shots at Josh Howard through media channels, but would I put it past him to perhaps offer a veiled criticism of Josh’s game? Not at all.

    I’m not sure if Cuban was looking to send a message or just got stuck on a particular topic at multiple panels. But that doesn’t stop Green’s story from being any less of a condensed caricature of Howard’s career. I wouldn’t dare play team psychologist here, but from where I’m sitting, Howard’s troubles always seemed to be more mental than physical. It’s undeniable that he faced a lot in rehabbing and returning from various injuries, but the game within the game has always been to keep Josh on the same page as everyone else. He was fed shot attempts early in the first quarter, and there’s absolutely no doubt that he was treated differently than other players. That’s what it took to keep him functioning as a member of the team, and so its what the Mavericks did.

    They hoped he would figure it out someday but they just kept giving him those chances. Josh just ran out of chances this last time.

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    Default Re: Vogel-had-no-choice-but-to-bench-gerald-green/Mike Wells

    Augustin has since turned it around since his benching, maybe Green will too.

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    Default Re: Vogel-had-no-choice-but-to-bench-gerald-green/Mike Wells

    Quote Originally Posted by PR07 View Post
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    Augustin has since turned it around since his benching, maybe Green will too.
    I think it all depends on what your expectation is.

    If you expect him to facilitate offense and play within a team concept, you're likely to be disappointed.

    If OTOH, if we can put him into catch-and-shoot, and simple predesigned cut-to-the-basket opportunities off the bench... he'll be a fine contributor. Think Wayne Ellington as a best-case scenario.

    Of course, he has to remember how to shoot again.

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    Default Re: Vogel-had-no-choice-but-to-bench-gerald-green/Mike Wells

    Quote Originally Posted by docpaul View Post
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    I think it all depends on what your expectation is.

    If you expect him to facilitate offense and play within a team concept, you're likely to be disappointed.

    If OTOH, if we can put him into catch-and-shoot, and simple predesigned cut-to-the-basket opportunities off the bench... he'll be a fine contributor. Think Wayne Ellington as a best-case scenario.

    Of course, he has to remember how to shoot again.
    I just look for him to be a scoring spark off the bench without embarrassing himself defensively.

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