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Thread: Pacers looking to keep West next season? (Update: new story from Kravitz in post #52)

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to keep West next season? (Update: new story from Kravitz in post #51)

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    It won't be West until we know how much he is going to make, if he is making over 12mil a year because crazy Houston decided to offer him some crazy money then West was the reason why you lose Danny.
    I think that the Rockets would make a $12 mil offer to Josh Smith or Milsap ( if they haven't made a play for them before this year's Trade Deadline ) before they make the same offer to West. I don't even know if there are other Free Agent PFs out there.....but West will be the 3rd Best PF available to choose from. We know that West has a lot of intangibles and is totally an old-school BAMF....but as many have often pointed out....he's old. It would make little sense to have West as your 1st choice over Smith or Milsap given where the Rockets are now.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to keep West next season?

    Quote Originally Posted by BornReady View Post
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    Haha "Interestingly, the Pacers seem to have no interest in moving him and aren't really taking any calls." Interestingly? I'm just about ready to give West a lifetime contract!
    In a world where everyone who makes $10+ million is expected to be traded at the end of their contract, that is interesting to anyone outside of Indiana.

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to keep West next season? (Update: new story from Kravitz in post #51)

    Suffice to say, if the Pacers choose to forego re-signing David West because it would cost them the ability to re-sign Danny Granger, I will have to seriously question whether this is a team I want to continue supporting.
    "I had to take her down like Chris Brown."

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to keep West next season? (Update: new story from Kravitz in post #51)

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Paul George is our MVP and our current all star, as Reggie said "Paul George is the new face of the Pacers".
    Paul may well be the face of the Pacers, but West is the heart.

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to keep West next season? (Update: new story from Kravitz in post #51)

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    IF Danny is healthy? Yes, that's a big IF though
    That's not really a big if. It is an if but only a moderate one.
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    Default Re: Pacers looking to keep West next season? (Update: new story from Kravitz in post #51)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    Paul may well be the face of the Pacers, but West is the heart.
    I'm sorry but sometimes you guys get all sentimental with players saying things like "he is the heart" or "he is our soul", like the famous Allen Iverson said long time ago "it's just a game".

    I remember when not long ago people told me the same thing about Jeff Foster, "he is our veteran presence in the locker room we should re-sign him forever", or "he is the hearth of smashmouth basketball we need to keep him at any cost even if we have to pay him the max", now look how much better the Pacers are doing without him.

    Sometimes I wonder if other teams fans are as sentimental as some Pacers fans, "West is the heart" SMH.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 01-22-2013 at 11:48 AM.

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to keep West next season? (Update: new story from Kravitz in post #51)

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I'm sorry but sometimes you guys get all sentimental with players saying things like "he is our heart" or "he is our soul", like the famous Allen Iverson said long time ago "it's just a game".

    I remember when not long ago people told me the same thing about Jeff Foster, "he is our veteran presence in the locker room we should re-sign him forever", or "he is the hearth of smashmouth basketball we need to keep him at any cost even if we have to pay him the max", now look how much better the Pacers are doing without him.
    I agree with your sentiment, but I think he meant something different.

    In short, the "identity" and style of the team was clearly established once West came aboard. Paul George plays within that identity. He is not a leader really in any way that West is. George is clearly the upcoming star of the team, but he is still young and impressionable.

    West is the bedrock of this team at this moment in time, period.

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to keep West next season? (Update: new story from Kravitz in post #51)

    Quote Originally Posted by docpaul View Post
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    I agree with your sentiment, but I think he meant something different.

    In short, the "identity" and style of the team was clearly established once West came aboard. Paul George plays within that identity. He is not a leader really in any way that West is. George is clearly the upcoming star of the team, but he is still young and impressionable.

    West is the bedrock of this team at this moment in time, period.
    The person that to me implemented that new "identity" was Vogel no West, or we forgot about the time he took over and how he changed the team? how about the Bulls series? the Pacers new "identity" is defense, that's all on Vogel no West.

    I agree that West is one of the leaders, that doesn't mean that somebody else can't replace him and be that leader once he is gone though.

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to keep West next season? (Update: new story from Kravitz in post #51)

    Vogel would have just been preaching hollow words to a bunch of nice, soft, likable guys that played well against Chicago but lacked the ability to make plays at crunch time. Vogel can talk about it all he wants. Bird did something different - he realized the roster he had did not include the type of players that the team needed in the fourth quarter so he went out and got them -- Hill and West.

    Hill and West make this team's identity. Guys like Paul and Lance are certainly benefitting from it, and may actually put up better "stats" over time than Hill and West. But don't confuse "leading scorer" with "team's leader(s)". Those are not synonyms and if you take away David and Hill, our wings will shoot us to about a 0.500 record.

    As Seth keeps saying, we've already identified our starting five that we're going to make this run with. With the exception of Danny, that is what we've got this season. And it is working pretty well through mid season (in spite of all the anxiety on here through the first ten games of the season as we adjusted to Danny's absence.) I'm confident that the front office is going to do what is needed to keep that core five players in tact. Assuming that they all stay healthy, of course.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Pacers looking to keep West next season? (Update: new story from Kravitz in post #51)

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    The person that to me implemented that new "identity" was Vogel no West, or we forgot about the time he took over and how he changed the team? how about the Bulls series? the Pacers new "identity" is defense, that's all on Vogel no West.

    I agree that West is one of the leaders, that doesn't mean that somebody else can't replace him and be that leader once he is gone though.
    I am all for letting West walk if he cost over 11 million but to me he is more important than Danny is to this team like Seth said. The reason he is more important is because he gives you scoring from the block and works well with creating for others in the pnr.

    The FO will still have to make calls to Milsap and Josh Smith just to make sure they leave no rock left unturned but the likely hood of getting those guys are minimal so unless you have a better option you have to resign West to a decent contract. I don't see ways to replace West production but PG is showing that Danny is replaceable IMO.

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to keep West next season? (Update: new story from Kravitz in post #51)

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I'm sorry but sometimes you guys get all sentimental with players saying things like "he is the heart" or "he is our soul", like the famous Allen Iverson said long time ago "it's just a game".

    I remember when not long ago people told me the same thing about Jeff Foster, "he is our veteran presence in the locker room we should re-sign him forever", or "he is the hearth of smashmouth basketball we need to keep him at any cost even if we have to pay him the max", now look how much better the Pacers are doing without him.

    Sometimes I wonder if other teams fans are as sentimental as some Pacers fans, "West is the heart" SMH.
    2 things.

    To start, I think that other fans are absolutely as sentimental as Pacers fans... its part of what makes supporting a team so enjoyable. If you don't believe that most teams have a fan favorite player or two then I don't really know what to tell you.

    Are you really going to compare David West's contributions to this year's team to Jeff Foster's over the past few years? David West has a serious chance to make his third All-star appearance this season... Something Jeff Foster never got close to. The reason why people are so supportive of keeping West as the "heart" of this team is that he combines the veteran presence we need with top of the line talent.

    "It's just a game." After watching the Colts rally around Pagano I am pretty surprised to see anyone here try to ignore the emotional aspect of sports. Emotions win games. The Colts had no right making the playoffs this year, yet they rallied behind their coach and somehow pulled off an 11 win season. Obviously talent is more important... But that's what makes the Pacers so exciting this year. We have the talent. It would be silly to pretend that David West's presence on this team is not a huge positive when we hit crunch time, whether that be late in games or just once we reach the playoffs.

    Also, I am pretty sure no one ever suggested giving Jeff Foster a max contract.
    Last edited by Jrod Jones; 01-22-2013 at 12:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to keep West next season? (Update: new story from Kravitz in post #51)

    Why does anyone care about Fosters salary? It was on crappy teams when we were not going to have any cap space anyway.

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to keep West next season? (Update: new story from Kravitz in post #51)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Vogel would have just been preaching hollow words to a bunch of nice, soft, likable guys that played well against Chicago but lacked the ability to make plays at crunch time. Vogel can talk about it all he wants. Bird did something different - he realized the roster he had did not include the type of players that the team needed in the fourth quarter so he went out and got them -- Hill and West.

    Hill and West make this team's identity. Guys like Paul and Lance are certainly benefitting from it, and may actually put up better "stats" over time than Hill and West. But don't confuse "leading scorer" with "team's leader(s)". Those are not synonyms and if you take away David and Hill, our wings will shoot us to about a 0.500 record.

    As Seth keeps saying, we've already identified our starting five that we're going to make this run with. With the exception of Danny, that is what we've got this season. And it is working pretty well through mid season (in spite of all the anxiety on here through the first ten games of the season as we adjusted to Danny's absence.) I'm confident that the front office is going to do what is needed to keep that core five players in tact. Assuming that they all stay healthy, of course.
    I'm sorry ChicagoJ but you are sounding like the Pacers won a championship last year or something, I mean the Pacers beat a team without Dhoward and lost to a team without one their best players in six games, yes Hill and West made them better but is not like the previous team that faced Chicago was garbage because they didn't have "the hearth and soul of the team", do we win another game on that series if instead of DC we had Hill and instead of Tyler we had West? maybe, the Pacers would have still lost that series though.

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to keep West next season? (Update: new story from Kravitz in post #51)

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I'm sorry ChicagoJ but you are sounding like the Pacers won a championship last year or something, I mean the Pacers beat a team without Dhoward and lost to a team without one their best players in six games, yes Hill and West made them better but is not like the previous team that faced Chicago was garbage because they didn't have "the hearth and soul of the team", do we win another game on that series if instead of DC we had Hill and instead of Tyler we had West? maybe, the Pacers would have still lost that series though.

    No, I'm acting like they won a playoff series. They're in the game.

    The last time the Pacers won a playoff series was 2004-05, Reggie's grande finale. The team then imploded.

    Winning a playoff series is a step in the right direction to build the team, not an excuse to blow them up.

    With Hill and West, maybe we win that series against Chicago. We only got blown out of one game by the #1 seed, and led substantially more minutes of the other games but COULD NOT make plays on offense to win close games (whereas they had Rose.) That Pacers team needed creators, and Bird went out and got them. The Bulls only beat us that season because they had a special creator in the fourth quarter with Rose and we didn't have any creators. Vogel needed help but the help he needed was a roster upgrade. He got it.

    Then last year we lost to the eventual Champion, and played them as competitively as any of their playoff opponents. I don't see any shame in that.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Pacers looking to keep West next season? (Update: new story from Kravitz in post #51)

    ADDENDUM:

    Good gracious. You've turned me into an optimist.

    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Pacers looking to keep West next season? (Update: new story from Kravitz in post #51)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    No, I'm acting like they won a playoff series. They're in the game.

    The last time the Pacers won a playoff series was 2004-05, Reggie's grande finale. The team then imploded.

    Winning a playoff series is a step in the right direction to build the team, not an excuse to blow them up.

    With Hill and West, maybe we win that series against Chicago. We only got blown out of one game by the #1 seed, and led substantially more minutes of the other games but COULD NOT make plays on offense to win close games (whereas they had Rose.) That Pacers team needed creators, and Bird went out and got them. The Bulls only beat us that season because they had a special creator in the fourth quarter with Rose and we didn't have any creators. Vogel needed help but the help he needed was a roster upgrade. He got it.

    Then last year we lost to the eventual Champion, and played them as competitively as any of their playoff opponents. I don't see any shame in that.
    Thanks for making it about what they bring to the table argument and what they do on the court instead of talking about feelings and how much the Pacers needed a "hearth" on that series against the Bulls, you are right, they won a playoffs series but you can't ignore that the other team didn't have Howard though.

    I can tell you that I'm starting to believe that this team can do some damage on the playoffs, but I'm thinking this because of what they can do on the court not because they have somebody that is "the hearth and soul of the team".

    I would also like to point out that the myth that I want to go into rebuild mode is just that a myth.

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to keep West next season? (Update: new story from Kravitz in post #51)

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I would also like to point out that the myth that I want to go into rebuild mode is just that a myth.
    I know. You and I both take bold positions to make our points. I'm not dismissing your position at all. I just think this team -- as currently constructed -- deserves at least one more playoff run and maybe two before thinking about making any changes to the core five players. Because I do believe they can do things in the playoffs.

    It wasn't that long ago that I was still willing to trade one of our wings for a SG that could create his own shot. Hill and West have changed my opinion on that.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Pacers looking to keep West next season? (Update: new story from Kravitz in post #51)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I know. You and I both take bold positions to make our points. I'm not dismissing your position at all. I just think this team -- as currently constructed -- deserves at least one more playoff run and maybe two before thinking about making any changes to the core five players. Because I do believe they can do things in the playoffs.

    It wasn't that long ago that I was still willing to trade one of our wings for a SG that could create his own shot. Hill and West have changed my opinion on that.

    Well they are going to have a shot this year, I believe that probably next year Danny is gone because cap space and the Pacers willingness to pay whatever they have to pay to keep West, I know you disagree because you are a West fan but I think that overpaying West is going to be a huge mistake, paying a guy that old that kind of money is a huge mistake.

    I expect that the same issues we had last year(shot creation and shooting) to come up once again to put the nail on the Pacers coffin on the playoffs, I don't see this team making it past the second round.

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to keep West next season? (Update: new story from Kravitz in post #51)

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Well they are going to have a shot this year, I believe that probably next year Danny is gone because cap space and the Pacers willingness to pay whatever they have to pay to keep West, I know you disagree because you are a West fan but I think that overpaying West is going to be a huge mistake, paying a guy that old that kind of money is a huge mistake.

    I expect that the same issues we had last year(shot creation and shooting) to come up once again to put the nail on the Pacers coffin on the playoffs, I don't see this team making it past the second round.
    Agree that overpaying West, who is going into his mid-30's is a mistake.

    I think we just need to get more specific on what that means. Is >10 million per year too much? For me, it depends on how many years the contract is for. If we could do another 2yr/20mil, I'd be thrilled. You?

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to keep West next season? (Update: new story from Kravitz in post #51)

    Quote Originally Posted by docpaul View Post
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    Agree that overpaying West, who is going into his mid-30's is a mistake.

    I think we just need to get more specific on what that means. Is >10 million per year too much? For me, it depends on how many years the contract is for. If we could do another 2yr/20mil, I'd be thrilled. You?
    2/20 would be perfect but like I said before I expect him to get way more than that(Walsh in in charge and he already said he loves him).

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to keep West next season? (Update: new story from Kravitz in post #51)

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    2/20 would be perfect but like I said before I expect him to get way more than that(Walsh in in charge and he already said he loves him).
    How about 3/30? I'd still be pretty pleased about that. If you're keeping him on longer than 3 years, then the $/year would need to go down, IMO. Team option for a 4th at 10mil would be reasonable as well.

    4/32 or 3/30 would be great value for him and would allow us some future flex, given our expectations that PG will command something closer to a max salary.

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to keep West next season?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Yep I remember when people(including myself) said the same thing when Danny went out, I don't buy what you are selling.
    The P's also had PG & Lance step up w Granger out...not so sure they could do the same witht the current roster if D West leaves....??

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to keep West next season? (Update: new story from Kravitz in post #52)

    I'll overpay West for two seasons. What I don't want to do is overpay him for more than two seasons - that is where we could get into trouble.

    Most know I was a huge Foster fan, but comparing Foster with West is really not valid at all. At no time was Foster ever the heart and soul of the pacers team. He might have been the sparkplug, he might have been a key defender - but how many key scores did Foster get late in games. he might have had a handfull of key putbacks - but he is no West.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 01-22-2013 at 05:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to keep West next season? (Update: new story from Kravitz in post #52)

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I'll overpay West for two seasons. What I don't want to do is overpay him for more than two seasons - that is where we could get into trouble.

    Most know I was a huge Foster fan, but comparing Foster with West is really not valid at all. At no time was Foster eve the heart and soul of the pacers team. He might have been the sparkplug, he might have been a key defender - but how many key scores did Foster get late in games


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    Default Re: Pacers looking to keep West next season? (Update: new story from Kravitz in post #51)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I know. You and I both take bold positions to make our points. I'm not dismissing your position at all. I just think this team -- as currently constructed -- deserves at least one more playoff run and maybe two before thinking about making any changes to the core five players. Because I do believe they can do things in the playoffs.
    I think that the Simons/FO will only give you 1 run with the current Starting 5 ( this year's Playoff run ) and then decide whether to stick with the all 5 Starters....or just 4 of the 5 Starters ( as in deciding between Granger or West for the future ).
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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