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Thread: Granger to begin practicing soon?

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    Default Re: Granger to begin practicing soon?

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    You don't understand the game of basketball... at all.
    Coming from the guy who doesn't believe in the wing position.

    CJ's entire last year he's spent angrily posting about the definition of positions. While rejecting what every great basketball mind in the country says. And I don't understand basketball??? Considering I'm on the same side as every basketball coach in the country, than I'm either right or every coach in the country doesn't understand basketball. lol
    Find me on the internets @mattiecolin

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    Default Re: Granger to begin practicing soon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    Hahaha, you are a trip. It's pretty easy to compare Danny Granger from 2011-2012 to Paul George in 2012-2013. By almost any measure, they are basically exactly the same.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ngda01&y2=2012

    Let's examine what is statistically signifcant in mattie's world.

    A true shooting percentage difference of 2% in Granger's favor? The beginning of the argument, and the end. Granger is clearly the better scorer.

    The fact that Paul George has a higher FG%, higher eFG%, and is essentially equal to Granger in any measure of efficiency besides FT%? Completely irrelevant.

    That 7% difference in FT% is what creates the 2% difference in TS%. That's the only thing that matters here. Like I said, it isn't just clear. It's crystal.
    So I'm curious, if they're basically the same statistically (which it's crazy how similar they are minus FTA) why should Paul have such a higher usage rate than Danny upon DG's return? Is it b/c Paul is a better/more willing passer? I could see that POV, but I still feel it'd be in the teams best interest to have their usage be equal while maintaining the high post option of D.West. I don't think Danny should essentially become a spectator offensively, I feel it's a disservice to one of our best (if not our best) offensive producer.

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    Default Re: Granger to begin practicing soon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    So I'm curious, if they're basically the same statistically (which it's crazy how similar they are minus FTA) why should Paul have such a higher usage rate than Danny upon DG's return? Is it b/c Paul is a better/more willing passer? I could see that POV, but I still feel it'd be in the teams best interest to have their usage be equal while maintaining the high post option of D.West. I don't think Danny should essentially become a spectator offensively, I feel it's a disservice to one of our best (if not our best) offensive producer.
    Because Danny Granger is not Paul George, PG is the future and Danny is not.

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    Default Re: Granger to begin practicing soon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    So I'm curious, if they're basically the same statistically (which it's crazy how similar they are minus FTA) why should Paul have such a higher usage rate than Danny upon DG's return? Is it b/c Paul is a better/more willing passer? I could see that POV, but I still feel it'd be in the teams best interest to have their usage be equal while maintaining the high post option of D.West. I don't think Danny should essentially become a spectator offensively, I feel it's a disservice to one of our best (if not our best) offensive producer.
    Saying he should reduce his usage rate from 25% to 20% doesn't mean I want him to be a "spectator." Far from it. Right now West's usage rate is at 25%. I think that should, and will come down a bit with Granger's return.

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    Default Re: Granger to begin practicing soon?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Because Danny Granger is not Paul George, PG is the future and Danny is not.
    True. But a Usage% of about 20 normally is reserved for individuals that are the 3rd, sometimes even 4th option within a lineup. Danny is a better scorer than that.

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    Default Re: Granger to begin practicing soon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    True. But a Usage% of about 20 normally is reserved for individuals that are the 3rd, sometimes even 4th option within a lineup. Danny is a better scorer than that.
    If he isn't willing to be the 3rd and sometimes 4th option in our starting lineup, then he needs to come off the bench.

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    Default Re: Granger to begin practicing soon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    True. But a Usage% of about 20 normally is reserved for individuals that are the 3rd, sometimes even 4th option within a lineup. Danny is a better scorer than that.
    At this point IF Danny is healthy enough and comes back to play like he was doing last year(not so good) I think that he should be the Pacers 3rd option in the starting unit, my thing is that I don't want to see him taking shots from Paul George if he is going to be jacking up shots like he was doing last year.

    Overall IF he is healthy he is going to be a huge plus I just hope that Paul George doesn't become the rookie Paul George if Danny comes back.

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    Default Re: Granger to begin practicing soon?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Overall IF he is healthy he is going to be a huge plus I just hope that Paul George doesn't become the rookie Paul George if Danny comes back.
    My opinion... Based off interviews with PG... that is not the plan... Now as to what will actually happen we will have to wait and see... But I am optimistic he won't revert...
    Nothing in life worth having comes easy.

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    Default Re: Granger to begin practicing soon?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    At this point IF Danny is healthy enough and comes back to play like he was doing last year(not so good) I think that he should be the Pacers 3rd option in the starting unit, my thing is that I don't want to see him taking shots from Paul George if he is going to be jacking up shots like he was doing last year.

    Overall IF he is healthy he is going to be a huge plus I just hope that Paul George doesn't become the rookie Paul George if Danny comes back.

    Jacking up? He averaged 15 FGA a game last year. That's not a lot for a perimeter scorer at all.

    If Danny is Danny we saw post AS Break (after his early season slump but before his knee injury where he avg: 19ppg, 45% shooting, 41% from 3, 90% from FT line), then I'd want him as my 1A scoring option (w/ PG) from the perimeter AND high post (w/ D.West), depending on matchups and who's got it going. If he's somehow limited in any way, then I can see him being relegated to a 3rd option who spreads the floor for the other guys.


    Ultimately I think Hill's FGA (12.5/gm) should come down, as should D. West (15.4) whereas Danny should get between 13-15 so that PG can maintain his offensive aggression.

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    Default Re: Granger to begin practicing soon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Jacking up? He averaged 15 FGA a game last year. That's not a lot for a perimeter scorer at all.

    If Danny is Danny we saw post AS Break (after his early season slump but before his knee injury where he avg: 19ppg, 45% shooting, 41% from 3, 90% from FT line), then I'd want him as my 1A scoring option (w/ PG) from the perimeter AND high post (w/ D.West), depending on matchups and who's got it going. If he's somehow limited in any way, then I can see him being relegated to a 3rd option who spreads the floor for the other guys.


    Ultimately I think Hill's FGA (12.5/gm) should come down, as should D. West (15.4) whereas Danny should get between 13-15 so that PG can maintain his offensive aggression.
    Oh yes he was jacking up some crazy s*** last year reason why his percentage was low, I remember that Danny was good for like a month, I said that Danny was playing at a super star level and that I wouldn't trade him(at that time) for anybody, I don't believe we are going to see that guy ever again(I hope I'm wrong).

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    Default Re: Granger to begin practicing soon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    Hahaha, you are a trip. It's pretty easy to compare Danny Granger from 2011-2012 to Paul George in 2012-2013. By almost any measure, they are basically exactly the same.
    We're gonna be a LOT better, then. Take our current team on offense, and add another Paul George? YES PLEASE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    I was referring to him giving full effort on defense.
    Ok, so we all agree that Danny has always taken whatever role the coaching staff told him to take, and that we're not especially worried about anybody's ego? Good.

    As for the defense, I'll agree that his defense suffered for several seasons, but I thought it picked up very well last year (in large part because Vogel was really challenging him to step up in that area). Even during his early-season shooting slump, lots of people were saying "Well his shot is off, but at least he's defending at a really high level this year." I expect his defense to be rusty to start (and as he's getting his knee into shape), but until we get more info I'm not particularly concerned about his defensive effort.
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    Default Re: Granger to begin practicing soon?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Oh yes he was jacking up some crazy s*** last year reason why his percentage was low, I remember that Danny was good for like a month, I said that Danny was playing at a super star level and that I wouldn't trade him(at that time) for anybody, I don't believe we are going to see that guy ever again(I hope I'm wrong).
    He played well for a good 3 months, with a great final month of the season. But with you saying this, about Danny nonetheless I'll simply agree with you and say I hope you're wrong about never seeing that guy again. If we get THAT DG, or even 80% of it, PLUS the new PG then we've got a shot to do damage

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    Default Re: Granger to begin practicing soon?

    I'm not sure I really understand. The offense needs increased scoring. Danny has been one of our better scorers aside from his beginning of season slumps. So, you want to make him the THIRD option so that PG can "continue to grow".

    I, on the other hand, want to win some ballgames, not prepare to put Granger out to pasture.

    If you really think PG and DG getting equal time is somehow going to stunt Paul's growth, you need to try to figure out just how teams with multiple young players manage to grow them at the same time. This idea that the only way a guy can grow is to:

    - get playing time, and then once he gets playing time
    - get major playing time, and then
    - start, and then
    - be the #1 option

    and anything that DOESN'T lead to that last situation somehow stunts a guy's growth is ridiculous. That'd pretty much mean you should have one good player on a team and everyone else should be bench guys (who hopefully are past their prime otherwise their growth is being stunted).

    See how guys fit together and use them to the best advantage of the TEAM, not punish a guy who has been the #1 option and is coming back from injury by saying a young player needs to continue learning. If PG is doing better than DG, he should get the minutes and be the option. If not, you don't force it.
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    Default Re: Granger to begin practicing soon?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I'm not sure I really understand. The offense needs increased scoring. Danny has been one of our better scorers aside from his beginning of season slumps. So, you want to make him the THIRD option so that PG can "continue to grow".

    I, on the other hand, want to win some ballgames, not prepare to put Granger out to pasture.

    If you really think PG and DG getting equal time is somehow going to stunt Paul's growth, you need to try to figure out just how teams with multiple young players manage to grow them at the same time. This idea that the only way a guy can grow is to:

    - get playing time, and then once he gets playing time
    - get major playing time, and then
    - start, and then
    - be the #1 option

    and anything that DOESN'T lead to that last situation somehow stunts a guy's growth is ridiculous. That'd pretty much mean you should have one good player on a team and everyone else should be bench guys (who hopefully are past their prime otherwise their growth is being stunted).

    See how guys fit together and use them to the best advantage of the TEAM, not punish a guy who has been the #1 option and is coming back from injury by saying a young player needs to continue learning. If PG is doing better than DG, he should get the minutes and be the option. If not, you don't force it.
    I don't think that Paul George "needs to continue learning" or that Danny back "is going to stop his grow" my point is that Paul George is the man right now and as the man he should be the one with the ball in his hands must of the time, removing the ball from Paul George to give it to Danny could be a huge mistake in my opinion, not only for the now but for the future.

    And also as Reggie said "Paul George is the new face of the Pacers", we all need to get used to that.

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    Default Re: Granger to begin practicing soon?

    I think Paul keeping the ball more benefits Danny, look at how many good looks Green gets and doesn't hit. Now put Danny taking those shots.

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    Default Re: Granger to begin practicing soon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I think Paul keeping the ball more benefits Danny, look at how many good looks Green gets and doesn't hit. Now put Danny taking those shots.
    No doubt that Danny taking those shots instead of Green is a huge deal.

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    Default Re: Granger to begin practicing soon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    Saying he should reduce his usage rate from 25% to 20% doesn't mean I want him to be a "spectator." Far from it. Right now West's usage rate is at 25%. I think that should, and will come down a bit with Granger's return.
    Mackey, I absolutely agree with your thought process on their usage rate. I in theory would love to see our starters all pretty much even in terms of usage rate, with one game to the next being absolutely unpredictable. I think PG should be the highest in usage with West and Granger shortly behind over the course of the rest of the season. I would also like to see Hill and Hibbert's usage slightly behind those three.

    Outside of usage, I think the big thing for when Danny gets back is that he looks to pass more than he ever has in his career. He needs to be more focused on making quicker passing decisions and crisper passes. His (and Hill and PG) three point shooting is going to really allow him to fake and get into the mid range. Danny has much better teammates than ever before and his passing will be the key to his efficiency.

    This team needs to make much better passing decisions and much quicker passing decisions as a whole. Those back cuts from the high post killed us against Orlando when we pressed hard to the perimeter. That is a little JOB that would be a nice touch in our offense once Granger gets back.
    Last edited by pacergod2; 01-17-2013 at 04:40 PM.
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    Default Re: Granger to begin practicing soon?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I don't think that Paul George "needs to continue learning" or that Danny back "is going to stop his grow" my point is that Paul George is the man right now and as the man he should be the one with the ball in his hands must of the time, removing the ball from Paul George to give it to Danny could be a huge mistake in my opinion, not only for the now but for the future.
    Frankly, I don't know why this is a discussion.....I expect that Granger would take away shots from everyone in the Starting Lineup...not just PG. I don't expect the distribution of shots to be limited to Granger taking ALL of Lance's shots ( roughly 7 FGA over the last month ) when Granger replaces Lance in the Starting lineup...while leaving PG with the same 15 FGA that he regularly takes.

    If Granger's return means that PG and the rest of the Starting Lineup will EACH be taking 1-2 less FGA, then so be it...that's the way it works.

    The only thing that I DO NOT want to see is what happened often last season and the season before that....when Granger gets the ball.....everyone else just stands around and watches. I don't want that and really hope that this doesn't happen....for the very reasons that you mention.

    Granger no longer is the best Player on the Team....he's important but he's not the best. But that doesn't mean that PG automatically gets the ball every time, it just means that having Granger back in the lineup will just mean that it takes off scoring and defensive pressure off of PG, West, GH and Hibbert...which is a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    And also as Reggie said "Paul George is the new face of the Pacers", we all need to get used to that.
    I get that he's the face of the franchise...but I like the "Team first, not Me first" mentality that we have seen from the Team as a whole since the beginning of the season. Despite PGs "leap forward" after the horrific ZERO pt outing against the Ws.....the Pacers have been winning because they were winning as a Team.....not because PG was taking the most shots in a game. Some wins....yes, we would see PG be "The Man" one night to win the game....and then it's GH that's "The Man" the other....then West shouldering the burden the next....and "so on and so on".

    I could honestly care less if PG is the leading Scorer or Player taking the most shots...I just care about the Team operating as one and winning games that way.
    Last edited by CableKC; 01-17-2013 at 04:42 PM.
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    Default Re: Granger to begin practicing soon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    Hahaha, you are a trip. It's pretty easy to compare Danny Granger from 2011-2012 to Paul George in 2012-2013. By almost any measure, they are basically exactly the same.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ngda01&y2=2012

    Let's examine what is statistically signifcant in mattie's world.

    A true shooting percentage difference of 2% in Granger's favor? The beginning of the argument, and the end. Granger is clearly the better scorer.

    The fact that Paul George has a higher FG%, higher eFG%, and is essentially equal to Granger in any measure of efficiency besides FT%? Completely irrelevant.

    That 7% difference in FT% is what creates the 2% difference in TS%. That's the only thing that matters here. Like I said, it isn't just clear. It's crystal.
    Well to be fair if you are asking if I'd like to add a second offensive player as good as Paul has been then I shout "Yes Please!".

    Danny takes a role to Paul and West like Wade accepts his "role" compared to Bosh and James. I think its safe to say that Wade ruining Miami's offense isn't in their top 20 issues.

    These 5 played solid offense together last year. To me expecting Danny's return to cause problems is like worrying what sunrise is going to do to the world. Based on this morning it should go pretty well.

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    Default Re: Granger to begin practicing soon?

    Ideally Danny takes around 13-14 shots a games , hitting 5 or 6 of which 2 or 3 are 3's. gets 5 or6 free throws hitting 5 to give the Pacers 17-19 points a game. Decent defense and at least 5 boards a night. It would be like the Pacers making a major trade but giving up nothing adding that to the line up.

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    Default Re: Granger to begin practicing soon?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    No doubt that Danny taking those shots instead of Green is a huge deal.
    I don't know that Danny will get these shots as opposing defenses will be always aware of where he is on the floor. Nevertheless, he should get more open looks from beyond the arc than at any point in his career. Every game, I notice that Paul seems to get double teamed more and more often. Not always full double teams, but much more frequent and obvious shifting over towards him. I'm really looking forward to seeing how well Danny can play when we have another perimeter player demanding attention. He should have a lot more space for shots and to take his defender off the dribble.

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    Default Re: Granger to begin practicing soon?

    But there is a reason Green is getting those looks, teams are CHEATING off him to attack other players. So either Danny is wide open or driving past a hard close out, or some interior player or dribble drive attack isn't being doubled very hard. Pick the poison, Danny's 3, West at the rim, Paul driving the lane...heck, Lance driving, Roy in the post, Ian inside, people will see the attention drift harder to Danny than it has with Green, or Danny will make them pay until they do start paying attention.



    To me it's obvious that fans have just forgotten what it looks like with all 5 of these guys together, and people have become accustomed to just watching some of the clunky offense get bailed out by great defense night after night. Danny is going to seem like an amazing addition if he simply brings last year's game to the court.

    And if Danny can hit the 3 on the road in the way that Paul has not, well that will stand out twice as much.

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    Default Re: Granger to begin practicing soon?

    Quote Originally Posted by diamonddave00 View Post
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    Ideally Danny takes around 13-14 shots a games , hitting 5 or 6 of which 2 or 3 are 3's. gets 5 or6 free throws hitting 5 to give the Pacers 17-19 points a game. Decent defense and at least 5 boards a night. It would be like the Pacers making a major trade but giving up nothing adding that to the line up.
    It will be our Rasheed.

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    Default Re: Granger to begin practicing soon?

    As the resident Granger fan/apologist I will make this statement of Paul vs. Danny.

    If Danny comes back and the team wins with him as the lead player then I'm all for it. If Danny comes back and the teams loses because he is the lead player than I am totally against it.

    In other words whatever is best for the one thing we are all supposed to be fans of "the Indiana Pacers". If that means that Danny returns and takes back his role, great.

    If it means that Paul has already passed him by and Danny has to take a secondary role then as the Jem'Hadar say "that is the order of things".

    I'll keep reminding everyone, we do not have a Batman & Robin situation here. We have the Avengers, we were never designed to be built around superstar players. Paul may someday come to that though, I won't deny he has that type of potential.

    Either way as long as the Indiana Pacers win then at the end of the day that is all that I care about.


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    Default Re: Granger to begin practicing soon?

    @MikeWellsNBA: Danny Granger (knee) did shooting drills in shootaround today w next step being non-contact activities during team's West Coast trip

    @MikeWellsNBA: The plan still - barring any setbacks - is for Granger to return to the lineup in early February

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