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Thread: From a New User: Upgrade at Point Guard Needed!

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    Default From a New User: Upgrade at Point Guard Needed!

    I signed on specifically to make my eventual point... but first I'd like to say that I'm pleased to see a reasonably active Indiana Pacers board. I briefly browsed through a few threads and I am encouraged by the activity and substance. I went to pacers.com and was unable to find any MB at all. At ESPN's Pacers board, there appeared to be an average of one post per infinity.

    I am a passionate believer that this team needs a traditional pass-first Point Guard, and that George Hill is not the answer for any team that is serious about making a deep playoff run. Is he a nice 6th man, a nice bench scorer? Yes? A starting PG on a team with (hopefully) ambitious aspirations? No.

    Among qualified point gaurds, George Hill is 35th in the NBA in assists per 48 minutes. He is 19th in field-goal percentage.

    In fact, during the 6-game stretch where DJ Augustin finally got a chance at decent minutes with the starters, he proved to be an upgrade over what George Hill had been doing as a PG.

    The Pacers are 28th in the NBA in team assists. 28th! Only the Cavs and Bobcats are worse. As much as I like this team, the problem I see is that we just may be the worst passing team in the NBA. We have TOO MANY shoot-first players. I'm fine with David West and Paul George taking this role, but when guys like George Hill, Green, and even Hansborough operate as if they never realized passing was an option, then I fear we have a problem.

    What is the perhaps the last thing such a team needs? A shoot-first point guard like George Hill.

    And when Granger get back, add another shoot-first player to the list.

    I like this team at the 4 of the 5 starting positions, but I feel like George Hill gets too much of a pass, perhaps for being a local boy. For the sake of chemistry, I would like to see DJ get the starting job for awhile.

    Or how about Danny Granger for Jose Calderon? Would Toronto do it?

    We need fewer shooters and better floor generals!!!
    Last edited by Randolph_HorseLips; 01-14-2013 at 08:28 PM.

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    Default Re: From a New User: Upgrade at Point Guard Needed!

    Danny Granger fans going into destroy mode in 3...2...1

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    Default Re: From a New User: Upgrade at Point Guard Needed!

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Danny Granger fans going into destroy mode in 3...2...1
    Isn't this thread more of a smack at HIll? I mean replacing Hill with Jose Calderon? Talk about an insult.

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    Default Re: From a New User: Upgrade at Point Guard Needed!

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Danny Granger fans going into destroy mode in 3...2...1
    I look forward to it.

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    Default Re: From a New User: Upgrade at Point Guard Needed!

    First of all, welcome to the board. We appreciate everyone's opinion, regardless of how much we agree or disagree.

    Speaking of disagree... Any trade proposal thoughts like Granger for Calderon I would strongly disagree with. I think Hill is a perfect compliment to our defensive philosophy and he is the type of facilitator we need with a post-centric offense. I don't think we need an upgrade from Hill, but moreso just more time with a full team to get used to our passing schemes. Our passing schemes aren't predicated on PG initiating. We run a lot of high picks to initiate movement and our PG moves off-ball as much as they run the offense with the ball in their hands. If we had say a Nash or Williams, we would be doing nothing but running pick and roll all day and our PG would have 10 assists per game. Instead Hill is a facilitator of the offense first and looks to score secondarily. This season, he has looked to score more than he ever has in his career out of necessity. Not because that is what we need him to be with our full roster.

    Kyrie Irving is one of the best young players in the league and his team has a terrible assist rate. There is a lot of ball dominating isolation on that team, because they have two young solid ball handlers on the perimeter. Very different ideas of basketball being played, yet they have a terrible assist rate as well. We shoot way too many three pointers to have a lot of assists from our guards. We don't penetrate the lane with dribble attacks like other teams do. We need to get our bigs touches as that is one of our biggest strengths of this roster. If you notice our bigs average way more assists than most other bigs outside of teams like Memphis who is also postcentric. Its more of a spread the wealth offense with five guys instead of a "here let our PG dominate the ball and see who gets the other touches from a collapsing defense" ytype of offense. If that made sense.

    Once again welcome.
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    Default Re: From a New User: Upgrade at Point Guard Needed!

    I would replace Hill with Calderon in a heartbeat.

    Calderon is #1, I repeat... #1, in the NBA at assist/turnover ratio.

    We need more pass-first players.

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    Default Re: From a New User: Upgrade at Point Guard Needed!

    How is comparing Jose Calderon to George Hill an insult to Hill? So confused.

    Calderon averaging 10.8 points and 8 assists.
    Hill averaging 14.5 points and 5 assists in more minutes.

    Im not on either side but just puzzled why Hill is in another league than Calderon when he clearly is not.

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    Default Re: From a New User: Upgrade at Point Guard Needed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Randolph_HorseLips View Post
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    I signed on specifically to make my eventual point... but first I'd like to say that I'm pleased to see a reasonably active Indiana Pacers board. I briefly browsed through a few threads and I am encouraged by the activity and substance. I went to pacers.com and was unable to find any MB at all. At ESPN's Pacers board, there appeared to be an average of one post per infinity.

    I am a passionate believer that this team needs a traditional pass-first Point Guard, and that George Hill is not the answer for any team that is serious about making a deep playoff run. Is he a nice 6th man, a nice bench scorer? Yes? A starting PG on a team with (hopefully) ambitious aspirations? No.

    Among qualified point gaurds, George Hill is 35th in the NBA in assists per 48 minutes. He is 19th in field-goal percentage.

    In fact, during the 6-game stretch where DJ Augustin finally got a chance at decent minutes with the starters, he proved to be an upgrade over what George Hill had been doing as a PG.

    The Pacers are 28th in the NBA in team assists. 28th! Only the Cavs and Bobcats are worse. As much as I like this team, the problem I see is that we just may be the worst passing team in the NBA. We have TOO MANY shoot-first players. I'm fine with David West and George Hill taking this role, but when guys like George Hill, Green, and even Hansborough play like passing is never an option, then I fear we have a problem. What is the perhaps the last thing such a team needs? A shoot-first point guard like George Hill.

    And when Granger get back, add another shoot-first player to the list.

    I like this team at the 4 of the 5 starting positions, but I feel like George Hill gets too much of a pass, perhaps for being a local boy. For the sake of chemistry, I would like to see DJ get the starting job for awhile.

    Or how about Danny Granger for Jose Calderon? Would Toronto do it?

    We need fewer shooters and better floor generals!!!
    Also, in regards to our hideous offense, I think we do need more shooters.

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    Default Re: From a New User: Upgrade at Point Guard Needed!

    Quote Originally Posted by boombaby1987 View Post
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    How is comparing Jose Calderon to George Hill an insult to Hill? So confused.

    Calderon averaging 10.8 points and 8 assists.
    Hill averaging 14.5 points and 5 assists in more minutes.

    Im not on either side but just puzzled why Hill is in another league than Calderon when he clearly is not.
    Defense for one. Pedigree for another.
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 01-14-2013 at 07:34 PM.

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    Default Re: From a New User: Upgrade at Point Guard Needed!

    Quote Originally Posted by boombaby1987 View Post
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    How is comparing Jose Calderon to George Hill an insult to Hill? So confused.

    Calderon averaging 10.8 points and 8 assists.
    Hill averaging 14.5 points and 5 assists in more minutes.

    Im not on either side but just puzzled why Hill is in another league than Calderon when he clearly is not.
    You just posted offensive numbers. You will find the answer on the other side of the court.

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    Default Re: From a New User: Upgrade at Point Guard Needed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Defense for win. Pedigree for another.
    I agree with defense but do you really think Hill is in another class than Calderon? I have had a chance to watch the Raptors a little bit and I'd say Calderon is a better floor general than Hill. Positives with the negatives I guess.

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    Default Re: From a New User: Upgrade at Point Guard Needed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Isn't this thread more of a smack at HIll? I mean replacing Hill with Jose Calderon? Talk about an insult.
    Or how about Danny Granger for Jose Calderon? Would Toronto do it?
    This.

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    Default Re: From a New User: Upgrade at Point Guard Needed!

    Quote Originally Posted by boombaby1987 View Post
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    I agree with defense but do you really think Hill is in another class than Calderon? I have had a chance to watch the Raptors a little bit and I'd say Calderon is a better floor general than Hill. Positives with the negatives I guess.
    I think their values are equal, I like both players, note that here you are not going to win that war though, Calderon is regarded as garbage around here.

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    Default Re: From a New User: Upgrade at Point Guard Needed!

    This is an interesting post, because when Collinson was our point guard, I argued nearly the same thing. And I agree that George Hill is not an improvement on Collinson if we are looking solely at assists and passing. Statistically, Calderon does have more assists than George Hill.

    HOWEVER, to follow up pacergod2's point, George Hill brings something to our back court that we haven't had since maybe Travis Best / Haywoode Workman - a player with the potential to be a defensive stopper for the other team's point guard. George Hill is not as good as either of those guys strictly from a defensive standpoint, but he is a better overall player than both. George Hill fits the defensive philosophy that the starters have established, and his presence is one of the primary reasons that the team is playing historically good defense. In fact, if you replace George Hill with either Calderon or Collinson, this team is much worse defensively and while those guys might average a couple more assists a game, the overall impact on the team would be a net negative. Big time.

    The question is whether it is more important to have an excellent defensive point guard or a passing-first point guard. Very few point guards are both - their names are Gary Payton and Isiah Thomas and they are in the HOF. Great pass-first point guards like Mark Jackson and Steve Nash bring you the offensive flow, but they get destroyed by good point guards on the other team. I think George Hill is undervalued at how rarely he gets torched by the other team's point guard, particularly on dribble drive penetration. He is a very good defensive player. He gets the team into the offense. He is relatively athletic for the position. He shoots a pretty strong percentage from outside. Yes, it would be great if he averaged more assists per game, but the ball is not in his hands like it is in other offenses. I don't think George Hill is the problem.

    (And because I can't avoid the temptation to chase this rabbit trail, I think the 3-man defensive combo of Stephenson, Hill and Paul George are able to switch and chase each other's man and be quick to the ball on D better than any other defensive combo that the Pacers could throw out there - including Granger. Granger matches up well with 3s, but cannot chase 1s and 2s the way that the 3-person combo of Stephenson, Hill and Paul George can. It will be interesting to see how the guys mesh with Granger defensively when he comes back).

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    Default Re: From a New User: Upgrade at Point Guard Needed!

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I think their values are equal, I like both players, note that here you are not going to win that war though, Calderon is regarded as garbage around here.
    There's no war to be won, this is a message board not a battleground.

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    Default Re: From a New User: Upgrade at Point Guard Needed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Randolph_HorseLips View Post
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    I would replace Hill with Calderon in a heartbeat.

    Calderon is #1, I repeat... #1, in the NBA at assist/turnover ratio.

    We need more pass-first players.
    Hill is a winner, and clutch, and vastly superior defensively. If we were still comparing Calderon and Ford, then I could see a reason to be interested in Calderon. But we've upgraded substantially to Collison first and then Hill.

    So I'd rather have Hill, who is admittedly ideal as a combo guard but capable of playing PG, over any alternative in which he's not on the court in the fourth quarter.

    While I like watching pass-first PGs, this team doesn't really need one.
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    Default Re: From a New User: Upgrade at Point Guard Needed!

    Quote Originally Posted by TinManJoshua View Post
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    There's no war to be won, this is a message board not a battleground.
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    Default Re: From a New User: Upgrade at Point Guard Needed!

    I love Danny, but I'd be all for a swap that landed Jose Calderon, assuming we could re-sign him for a reasonable price.

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    Default Re: From a New User: Upgrade at Point Guard Needed!

    I agree Hill isn't a true point guard. He's a shoot first combo guard. I think trading Granger for a playmaking guard (either 1 or 2) does make sense. In my opinion Hill should be played next to guys like Iggy, Joe Johnson etc. Ball dominant guards that can run the offense. But I do not think there's any significant upgrade available in a package centered around Granger, his trade value is too low right now, so we should just keep him. Trading our best player for a junk package is something I usually oppose
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    Default Re: From a New User: Upgrade at Point Guard Needed!

    By the way I'm happy with Hill and I would not trade him for anybody.

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    Default Re: From a New User: Upgrade at Point Guard Needed!

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    By the way I'm happy with Hill and I would not trade him for anybody.
    I think you need to clarify this. Do you mean middle class point guards in the same tier?

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    Default Re: From a New User: Upgrade at Point Guard Needed!

    Quote Originally Posted by boombaby1987 View Post
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    I think you need to clarify this. Do you mean middle class point guards in the same tier?
    I mean anybody at any position unless they are huge upgrades, I believe that Hill is going to be an all star for years to come, he has that potential.

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    Default Re: From a New User: Upgrade at Point Guard Needed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Randolph_HorseLips View Post
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    I signed on specifically to make my eventual point... but first I'd like to say that I'm pleased to see a reasonably active Indiana Pacers board. I briefly browsed through a few threads and I am encouraged by the activity and substance. I went to pacers.com and was unable to find any MB at all. At ESPN's Pacers board, there appeared to be an average of one post per infinity.

    I am a passionate believer that this team needs a traditional pass-first Point Guard, and that George Hill is not the answer for any team that is serious about making a deep playoff run. Is he a nice 6th man, a nice bench scorer? Yes? A starting PG on a team with (hopefully) ambitious aspirations? No.

    Among qualified point gaurds, George Hill is 35th in the NBA in assists per 48 minutes. He is 19th in field-goal percentage.

    In fact, during the 6-game stretch where DJ Augustin finally got a chance at decent minutes with the starters, he proved to be an upgrade over what George Hill had been doing as a PG.

    The Pacers are 28th in the NBA in team assists. 28th! Only the Cavs and Bobcats are worse. As much as I like this team, the problem I see is that we just may be the worst passing team in the NBA. We have TOO MANY shoot-first players. I'm fine with David West and Paul George taking this role, but when guys like George Hill, Green, and even Hansborough play like passing is never an option, then I fear we have a problem. What is the perhaps the last thing such a team needs? A shoot-first point guard like George Hill.

    And when Granger get back, add another shoot-first player to the list.

    I like this team at the 4 of the 5 starting positions, but I feel like George Hill gets too much of a pass, perhaps for being a local boy. For the sake of chemistry, I would like to see DJ get the starting job for awhile.

    Or how about Danny Granger for Jose Calderon? Would Toronto do it?

    We need fewer shooters and better floor generals!!!
    Toronto would do Granger for Calderon any day of the week. But would we do it?? Hell no!

    I've watched many Raps game (being from Toronto) and Calderon is probably the worst defensive PG I've ever seen. Hibbert already had trouble staying out of foul trouble, with Calderon on the Pacers I don't see Hibbert playing more than 20 mins
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    Default Re: From a New User: Upgrade at Point Guard Needed!

    I would not trade Danny for Calderon. Maybe Calderon and some picks. I don't think Calderon is garbage or anything, but he is putting up decent numbers on a bad team. Have some people already forgotten the last time we got a guy like that? D.J. Augustin was in a similar situation and people were all over him for not putting up those same numbers on a better team. If there is one thing we are lacking, it would have to be more scoring and that is exactly what Danny does. If we were going to trade Danny I don't think we could get the right value as far as point guards go.

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    Default Re: From a New User: Upgrade at Point Guard Needed!

    I'd say Hill is good enough. Nothing more, nothing less.

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