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Thread: Pacers/Nets Postgame Thread 1/13/13

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    Default Re: Pacers/Nets Postgame Thread 1/13/13

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    Terry
    35 years old averaging 10.6 PPG, 2.4 APG and 2.1 RPG. Lost starting job the moment Avery Bradley came back.

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    Felton
    Shooting less than 40%. He is averaging 15.8 PPG, 6.3 APG and 2.9 RPG. Really important for the Knicks as he is their primary shot creator and the reason for their good ball movement. Good penetrator but bad shooter. Injury prone. Ball dominant. Coming off his worst season ever.

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    Kidd
    39 years old. He cannot penetrate anymore and is often relegated to a spot up shooter.

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    Lowry
    Very good player. He is averaging 14.4 PPG, 6 APG and 4.7 RPG. Terrific rebounder, high energy player. Unfortunately, he is very injury prone. He has only played a full 82 game season once. And he is in his 7th season.

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    Hinrich
    Averaging 6.6 PPG, 5.5 APG and 2.7 RPG. Good shooter, good defender. 32 year old. Dependable vet in his 10th season. In his prime you could say that he was similar to George Hill.

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    Robinson
    Averaging 10.9 PPG, 3.6 APG and 2 RPG. Really undersized at 5'9. Opposing guards just exploit his size defensively. High energy player that has the ability to shoot you in or out of a game.

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    Sessions
    Averaging 14.1 PPG, 4 APG and 2.8 RPG. He's having a bad shooting season (under 40% from the field and under 30% from 3). Lakers fans used to complain about his defense. Bobcats fans complain about him because they think he shoots too much.

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    Lou Williams
    Averaging 14.9 PPG, 3.7 APG, 2.2 RPG and 1.2 SPG. High energy player that has the ability to shoot you in and out of a game. His shot selection is suspect. But he is a good player. Personally, I prefer Hill due to his D but one could make a case for Lou.

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    Chalmers
    Averaging 7.5 PPG, 3.4 APG, 2.4 RPG and 1.6 SPG. He mainly plays off the ball. Good shooter from downtown (Hill has a better career averaged but Rio is shooting it much better this season). Good defender. But he's not a shot creator and isn't much of a penetrator either. Miami fans hate him this season and consider him one of the worst PGs in the league.

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    Jordan Crawford
    Averaging 15.6 PPG, 4.6 APG and 4 RPG. He probably has the worst shot selection in the league. He has never met a shot he didn't like. Not much of a defender. But he can beat everyone off the dribble.

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    Jamal Crawford
    Mainly a SG but has a great size (6'6). He is 32 years old and he's in his 13th season. He's averaging 16.2 PPG, 3.1 APG and 2.3 RPG. He is good but he's older than what we were looking for.

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    Brooks
    Averaging 9.1 PPG, 2.7 APG and 1.9 RPG. He had a great year in Houston but according to Sacramento fans he's just a "glorified chucker that's halting the progress of the Thomas and Jimmer" now. Not a good defender due to his size (probably less than 6'0 and only 161 lbs).

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    Mayo
    Averaging 18.2 PPG, 3.8 APG and 3.7 RPG. Not a PG. He's a SG with some playmaking. He is turnover prone (2.9 turnovers per game). We tried to acquire him twice but the deal fell through. In FA, he chose a one-year contract and a starting spot in order to earn a good paycheck since has underutilized in Memphis.

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    Vasquez
    Averaging 14.2 PPG, 9.2 APG and 4.5 RPG. Great size (6'6) and natural playmaking ability. He is a front-runner for Most Improved Player as he has improved majorly in every statistical category. He went from 8.9 PPG to 14.2 PPG, from 5.4 APG to 9.2 APG and from 2.6 RPG to 4.5 RPG. He also imrpoved his 3 pt% from 31.9% to 39.4%. It's safe to say that few people expected that jump.

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    Neal
    Mainly a SG. He went undrafted and he was a journeyman in Europe 'till the Spurs picked him up. He is averaging 10.4 PPG, 1.8 APG and 3.9 RPG. Good 3 point shooter.

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    Barea
    Averaging 10.7 PPG, 4.4 APG and 3.3 RPG. Quick player that can run the PnR. Decent shooter, can score has good vision. But he's getting killed defensively because he is undersized. Most NBA sources have him listed a 6'0 but that's a lie. His mother has been cited to say that he's a bit smaller than 5'11. His wife is 5'9 and he does not seem a lot taller than her.

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    Ridnour
    Averaging 11.6 PPG, 4.2 APG, 2.9 RPG and 1.2 SPG. He is 31 years old and he is in his 10th season. He's a dependable vet. Had a great shooting year in his first season with Minny.

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    Shved
    Averaging 11.2 PPG, 4.7 APG and 2.6 RPG. He's still a rookie. He is 6'6 and is a true combo guard. He's shooting below 40% at the moment but I expect this to go up. Athletic player with good handles, excellent vision and flashy passing skills. He is a stud but he was completely unknown in the US. I'd love to have him here. It's too bad that sometimes the Pacers seem to completely ignore International FAs. We should make better use of that market just like the Spurs.

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    Foye
    Mainly a SG. He's averaging 11.1 PPG, 1.8 APG and 1.6 RPG. He's having a good shooting season at least (42.8% from deep). But I wouldn't even come close to prefer him over Hill.

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    nor does it include the combo guards who are making less than Hill and yet clearly superior, such as Conley.
    Conley is only paid $7.18M this year but he has a backloaded contract. He will be making $8.76 in 14-15 and $9.68 in 15-16. The Grizzlies are going to have to resign Speights and Bayless in 14-15 and they'll have to resign Marc Gasol, Zach Randolph, Rudy Gay and Darrell Arthur in 15-16 (if Zach and Darrell pick up their player options in 14-15). Conley's contract makes it significantly harder for them to do so.

    Hill is on a flat contract that doesn't take anything away from our flexibility when we're going to need to resign West, Granger, PG and Lance. A front-loaded contract would be better given our cap space this season but flat contracts are always good.

    Also, Hill got a $40M for 5 years deal whereas Conley got a $45M for 5 years deal. Conley is paid significantly more than Hill overall.

    As far as the clearly superior part is concerned.

    Hill is averaging 14.6 PPG, 5 APG, 4.4 RPG, 0.9 SPG and 0.4 BPG this season. He is shooting 41.9% from the field, 34.6% from deep and 86.1% from the line. He is also averaging 1.8 turnovers per game.

    Mike Conley is averaging 13.3 PPG, 6.2 APG, 2.7 RPG, 2.4 SPG and 0.2 BPG this season. He is shooting 41.6% from the field, 38% from deep and 83.6% from the line. He is also averaging 2.6 turnovers per game.

    So, let's compare the two. Hill is scoring more. Conley is assisting more. Hill is a better rebounder. Conley has a significant advantage in steals (although, this can be attributed on the Grizs' aggressive defense that tries to create a lot of turnovers in contract with our conservative approach in defense). Hill has a sizeable advantage in blocks. Hill is shooting slightly better from the field and from the line but Conley is shooting better from deep. Conley is more turnover prone than Hill.

    I clearly remember a thread that appeared one week ago (or so) that compared the PGs that came out of Indiana (Hill, Conley and Teague). You will find several interesting facts there that point out that Hill was indeed the right player to choose.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Nets Postgame Thread 1/13/13

    Quote Originally Posted by OrganizedConfusion View Post
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    But the Pacers had no answer when Lopez adjusted and started hitting from outside.
    That's nothing new. That's the shot that our defense allows the other team to take. If they take it and make it then good for them, they can beat us. But it's also the lowest percentage shot in basketball so most teams will not make it.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Nets Postgame Thread 1/13/13

    Quote Originally Posted by OrganizedConfusion View Post
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    I doubt there would be complaints if Hibbert scored 10 points in the 4th quarter. Especially if he drained 3 consecutive from mid-range. I'll give Hibbert credit for shutting down Lopez's post up game as he usually does. But the Pacers had no answer when Lopez adjusted and started hitting from outside.

    which is right after Roy went out with his 5th (bad call) and he just stuffed him for the 4th time, don't blame that on Roy, someone lost a man and all he had was a bad hot that fell 5 for 14 he was, we don't take kindly to those percentages with our own players
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    Default Re: Pacers/Nets Postgame Thread 1/13/13

    Quote Originally Posted by croz24 View Post
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    Watching him brick shot after shot in crunch time tonight only strengthened my belief that his contract was a huge mistake and may cost us the shot at a player who could greatly help us, or even hinder us in resigning the likes of West or Stephenson or George.
    Sooo I guess crunch time shots against TOR, LA, SAC twice, PHI, POR, PHX, and CHA (just off memory) don't count.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Nets Postgame Thread 1/13/13

    Quote Originally Posted by croz24 View Post
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    With the amount of good to very good point guards there are in this league, I'm still struggling to find a reason as to why we gave Hill the amount we did. 6'3" combo guards are a dime a dozen, and in no way is Hill elite at his position.
    You gotta be kidding me. He had a bad game. For $8 mill per season, he's a steal.

    I hate it when a player has a bad game and all of sudden the complaining starts. Hill is still probably a little sick
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    Default Re: Pacers/Nets Postgame Thread 1/13/13

    I never complain about the refs, but last night was pretty bad. And I don't base that at all on the free throw attempt differential - that proves nothing. I base that just on watching the game and thinking wow that was a bad call against the pacers several times - again and again.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Nets Postgame Thread 1/13/13

    Nets are still shooting free throws apparently...

    I haven't been so pissed for a so badly "ref-ed" Pacers game like ever. Oh well, roll on Tuesday against the Bobcats. A difficult game mind. Not as yesterday's game but still difficult.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Nets Postgame Thread 1/13/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I never complain about the refs, but last night was pretty bad. And I don't base that at all on the free throw attempt differential - that proves nothing. I base that just on watching the game and thinking wow that was a bad call against the pacers several times - again and again.
    I agree, I think the non calls that the Nets should have gotten was ridiculous. Baby touch foul at one end on the Pacers and body slams on the other end that was ok! I couldn't believe my eyeballs.
    .

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    Default Re: Pacers/Nets Postgame Thread 1/13/13

    I have seldom seen such a poor performance by the officials. The foul calls were laughable.

    O. Johnson should do the PG24 - get up early and hit the practice court and take 500 shots. It is ridiculous how poorly he has shot the ball so far. Inexcusable.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Nets Postgame Thread 1/13/13

    Just gonna say - Deron Williams is a pretty hard cover for any G in the NBA. His numbers were pretty on par with his season averages, so I don't think Hill did that bad of a job on Deron. He's just an elite PG and he WILL score and do what he does. Its impossible to just give instructions at the NBA level to another player and tell them - just do this, you'll shut them down! It just doesn't work like that for certain players.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Nets Postgame Thread 1/13/13

    Quote Originally Posted by pathil275 View Post
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    I have seldom seen such a poor performance by the officials. The foul calls were laughable.

    O. Johnson should do the PG24 - get up early and hit the practice court and take 500 shots.
    Agreed, if he has a consistent shot by the end of the season he would be a better player than Green is right now.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Nets Postgame Thread 1/13/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer Fan View Post
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    I agree, I think the non calls that the Nets should have gotten was ridiculous. Baby touch foul at one end on the Pacers and body slams on the other end that was ok! I couldn't believe my eyeballs.
    That's the stuff that drives me up the wall. If they're going to let them hammer us, then let us hammer them as well. If you're going to call us for lighter fouls, then call them for lighter fouls. The inconsistency is understandable for a play or a few plays, but when it seems like it goes all game it just gets infuriating.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Nets Postgame Thread 1/13/13

    One more point about GHill.

    Deron Williams is paid almost three times what Hill is. If you expect him to do anything but get outplayed by Williams, I think your expectations are off. Also, I didn't see this game, but the last game I did see and Hill could barely get off the ground on his shots it seemed then. I doubt his body is refreshed from being sick. Hill played 42 minutes against the Bobcats and then the very next night puts in another 34.

    Hill is worth the contract we gave him. I thought we should have paid him in the $6.5-$7.5M range (but assuming full yearly increases) throughout the contract, so in my mind we overpaid him by no more than $5M over five years. He also fits more of what we do offensively and defensively than any of the players you mentioned. He is long and a versatile defender. Our whole roster is predicated on length to maximize our defensive coverage. Also, several of the guys you mentioned are small, quick SGs in a PGs body. That, as we can see with Augustin and Collison, is not the best fit for the make-up of our roster. Almost every one of those guys are better suited coming off the bench. Hill is a perfect starter for us (and a local kid), so the small premium we paid for his deal over what he should have gotten is well worth it. His maturity and work ethic more than make up for anything we may have overpaid him, IMO.

    I do appreciate your point CROZ. I agree that combo guards that come off the bench are a dime a dozen and they don't deserve to get paid more than about $5M per year for some of the better ones. Most of those players aren't worth what they are paid TO US. Jamal Crawford is a ridiculous scorer and plays significant minutes on every team he has played for, but he struggled to make a lot on the open market, because he is an inefficient chucker who plays very little defense. I love Crawford, because he is a Michigan man, but that is reality and he validates your point about combo guards. The big difference for me is that I don't see Hill as a combo guard. I see him as a PG. A great decision maker for the most part, a solid passer (but better post entry passer), a hell of a long defender who only truly struggles against really quick PGs. He fits this team as a starting PG, not a combo guard. He was a great complimentary player in SA, because he could play next to Parker and Ginobili. That is more a testament to his versatility as opposed to being labeled a "combo guard", IMO. I think he has improved significantly since he has come over to us and our team just needs to be more efficient as a whole on the offensive end, which has not been Hill's problem (or West).

    He and West have really been the stabilizing forces on this team this year. They truly have. To underestimate how well Hill has played is truly short-sighted in a couple of games where he wasn't 100%.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Nets Postgame Thread 1/13/13

    Also, I really am excited about Orlando Johnson.
    "Your course, your path, is not going to be like mine," West says. "Everybody is not called to be a multimillionaire. Everybody's not called to be the president. Whatever your best work is, you do it. Do it well. … You cease your own greatness when you aspire to be someone else."

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    Default Re: Pacers/Nets Postgame Thread 1/13/13

    Quote Originally Posted by BornReady View Post
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    Just gonna say - Deron Williams is a pretty hard cover for any G in the NBA. His numbers were pretty on par with his season averages, so I don't think Hill did that bad of a job on Deron. He's just an elite PG and he WILL score and do what he does. Its impossible to just give instructions at the NBA level to another player and tell them - just do this, you'll shut them down! It just doesn't work like that for certain players.
    Lance and AJ actually did a very good job of covering him last season. Williams uses his strength more than any other physical ability to get his points, and they battled back with him. I'm not sure that Hill has the strength to defend like that though. He looks very thin. Tough cover for Hill, particularly when he may still be weak from his flu.

    That said, with the way things were called, Lance (if available) might have fouled out in 5 minutes if he tried that tactic.

    and speaking of the refs, I said in the other thread that as much as it sucks (and it did), the Pacers needs to learn how to win while playing 5 on 8. They got cranky and started yapping at the refs and let it control the rest of the game too. I say this because they will be playing 5 on 8 against Miami. We'll all hate it, they'll all hate it, but if they'd like to beat Miami, that is something they will have to overcome.

    Refs can have a lot of influence over a game. But they don't win games for a team. Pacers need to remember that. After a great display of mental toughness against the Bobcats, seemed like ref frustration undid the team a little.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Nets Postgame Thread 1/13/13

    What is West supposed to do when he gets shoved hard enough to airball his shot attempt and they won't call it?

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    Default Re: Pacers/Nets Postgame Thread 1/13/13

    Quote Originally Posted by pacergod2 View Post
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    Also, I really am excited about Orlando Johnson.
    I agree. OJ seems promising.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Nets Postgame Thread 1/13/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Vogel not letting the media bait him into ripping the refs. Though you can clearly see he wants to.
    Why not? I think coaches have to go to bat for their players.

    I also think they've got a quality assistant head coach, so pick a battle and throw a hissy and get tossed to fire up your players and make the officials think about the job they're doing.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Nets Postgame Thread 1/13/13

    Too much crying and whining about the referees, the fact is that if the Pacers don't commit stupid fouls and play better D they win the game.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Nets Postgame Thread 1/13/13

    Gotta agree with V on this. I think if anything we let the refs control our game by talking ourselves into the idea that we were getting screwed. You just gotta play through it.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Nets Postgame Thread 1/13/13

    Yeah, let us fans and coaches complain not the players.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Nets Postgame Thread 1/13/13

    http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsi...lity-road-win/

    Paul George put it, “Attempting 31 free throws to 12, that’s tough to overcome.”
    “We just can’t rely on the officials giving us the calls the other teams get,” West said.
    "We've got to be very clear about this. We don't want our players hanging around with murderers," said Larry Bird, Pacers president.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Nets Postgame Thread 1/13/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Gotta agree with V on this. I think if anything we let the refs control our game by talking ourselves into the idea that we were getting screwed. You just gotta play through it.
    It's more than that. Your coaches from the bench have to ask themselves "why are they getting the calls and were not getting squat?".

    For example, last night Vogel and crew should have told his players to take it to the hole if you expect any chance at all of getting a call. Otherwise, don't complain and keep playing.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Nets Postgame Thread 1/13/13

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23 View Post
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    It's more than that. Your coaches from the bench have to ask themselves "why are they getting the calls and were not getting squat?".

    For example, last night Vogel and crew should have told his players to take it to the hole if you expect any chance at all of getting a call. Otherwise, don't complain and keep playing.
    They were taking it to the hole and not getting calls.

    Vogel has to pick his battles though. Complain about it too much and no one will listen. We know he'll stick up for his team when need be.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Nets Postgame Thread 1/13/13

    The officials last night were:
    The guy who convinced the other officials to not eject Haslem from game 5
    A guy from new jersey who was officiating the D League and WNBA 4 years ago
    A guy who worked as a replacement ref and was a "guest referee" last year and was just promoted from the D League and WNBA

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