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Thread: The Pacers have the 6th best FG% defense in NBA history

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoupIsGood View Post
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    It's a bit off to compare a 22-game stretch to rankings of full seasons.
    It was 25 games, plus 23 playoff games.

    Indeed. Would have been nice to see that group for the full 82 games, but they were dominant in the stretch that counted. We gutted our depth when we allowed Corliss, mike James and okur to leave in the summer. They were still very good but not the same.

    I always compare the 04 pistons to the 00 Baltimore ravens. Very good defensively for a long time, but that one season they were the best ever.

    Holding 5 straight teams under 70 points might never be duplicated again. On the season they held 8 teams under 70 after the sheed trade. 12 teams failed to reach 80. They did not allow 100 points once, and the only game they gave up 100 in the playoffs came in triple overtime. They held 11 of 23 playoff opponents under 80, and six of them didn't break 70.
    Last edited by Kstat; 01-12-2013 at 04:45 AM.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have the 6th best FG% defense in NBA history

    Quote Originally Posted by shags View Post
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    I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that the 2003-04 Detroit Pistons number needs a giant 48 point font asterisk. When you're talking about ranking the best defensive teams, please remember this:

    The 2003-04 Detroit Pistons, after they acquired Rasheed Wallace, was the best defensive team of ALL TIME.

    The defensive numbers for the Pistons over the full season really do a major disservice to just how good that team was defensively once Sheed came aboard.
    Best of all time? Naaa...very good? yes... Especially the front line.... But that front court forgave quite a few sins of a backcourt that, for me, would prevent that team from ever being regarded as the best of all time...Right of the top of my head I would think of a couple Bulls teams and Knicks teams from the early to mid 90's that I think I would have to take if I was looking for a team to shut down another. And I have a feeling there are a few more. The Pistons were very well coached and played a god awful slow pace. Hence one of the reasons some of the numbers might be considered skewed a bit..Very good defensively and one of the best of all time, undoubtedly. But THE best? Not for me.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have the 6th best FG% defense in NBA history

    Despite the Pacers ultimately getting thrashed by the end of it, one of my favorite games to watch from a physical basketball purist standpoint was the regular season war we fought with the Pistons after the Rasheed trade. It was a titanic struggle from the outset, and the physicality / borderline brutality of that game made even most playoff games seem tame by comparison. Epic.

    Then, the playoff that year against the Pistons -- wow. The highest score by either team was 85, and the lowest score (twice) was 65, with the final game of the series being decided 69-65. The Pistons beat the Pacers by an average score of 75.17 - 72.67, and it was nothing but stifling defense and physically permissive officiating which led to such scores. I still wish we could have watched those teams teams battle for the title on the court beyond 11-19-04 . The Pacers were dominant that night, and I am sure the Pistons would have answered them in the remainder of the games that season.

    Ultimately, the Pistons were the somewhat stronger team the remainder of the 2003-04 season due to Rasheed's presence, and I still cannot believe that Stern allowed perhaps the single most lopsided trade in league history to occur.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have the 6th best FG% defense in NBA history

    Guys, the Pistons lost Bobby "Trip-Dub" Sura in that trade!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    Guys, the Pistons lost Bobby "Trip-Dub" Sura in that trade!
    ...and josh smith. But hey, who's counting....It was the most lopsided trade ever, right?

    Kinda like the idiots that still whine over the pau gasol trde, while overlooking the fact Memphis got Marc gasol....

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    Default Re: The Pacers have the 6th best FG% defense in NBA history

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    Guys, the Pistons lost Bobby "Trip-Dub" Sura in that trade!
    Hey, Bobby Sura is the man. He comes from the mean streets of Wilkes-Barre PA. G.A.R. was unbeatable when he was running things. I'm still pissed at Stern taking away that last triple double. Next thing I know you're gonna be talking trash about Gerry McNamara.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have the 6th best FG% defense in NBA history

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    ...and josh smith. But hey, who's counting....It was the most lopsided trade ever, right?

    Kinda like the idiots that still whine over the pau gasol trde, while overlooking the fact Memphis got Marc gasol....


    Tony Allen ended up being the other draft pick the Pistons traded away in that trade. He turned out all right, especially considering he was the 25th pick in the draft. The Pistons still won the deal, but still.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have the 6th best FG% defense in NBA history

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    It was 25 games, plus 23 playoff games.

    Indeed. Would have been nice to see that group for the full 82 games, but they were dominant in the stretch that counted. We gutted our depth when we allowed Corliss, mike James and okur to leave in the summer. They were still very good but not the same.

    I always compare the 04 pistons to the 00 Baltimore ravens. Very good defensively for a long time, but that one season they were the best ever.

    Holding 5 straight teams under 70 points might never be duplicated again. On the season they held 8 teams under 70 after the sheed trade. 12 teams failed to reach 80. They did not allow 100 points once, and the only game they gave up 100 in the playoffs came in triple overtime. They held 11 of 23 playoff opponents under 80, and six of them didn't break 70.
    They played a total of 48 games with that lineup then. But you have to look at that in context. They played 7 games against a pacers team that wasn't offensively inclined. And 5 against a completely dysfunctional Lakers team. And as I recall they also got to play the Nets 7 games and the nets had their own troubles scoring the basketball.

    Thats a disproportionate amount of games against struggling teams, or bad offensive teams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad-Mad-Mario View Post
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    They played a total of 48 games with that lineup then. But you have to look at that in context. They played 7 games against a pacers team that wasn't offensively inclined. And 5 against a completely dysfunctional Lakers team. And as I recall they also got to play the Nets 7 games and the nets had their own troubles scoring the basketball.

    Thats a disproportionate amount of games against struggling teams, or bad offensive teams.
    Funny how every team we played was either dysfunctional or just offensively inept after we ground them into dust....

    We get that a lot.
    Last edited by Kstat; 01-12-2013 at 11:49 PM.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have the 6th best FG% defense in NBA history

    That Pistons team was very good. I am sad as a Pacers fan that we got injured in that series. I think it would have gone 7 otherwise, but as we know that P's squad was fool's gold anyway.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have the 6th best FG% defense in NBA history

    I think this list kind of lends credence to my opinion is that it is better to compare a teams relative to how good their contemporaries than on pure statistics alone, as there are so many variables that make each season unique and could give teams from one season an advantage over teams from another season statistically. I have a hard time believing that all of the best defensive teams played only in 98-99 or 03-04.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have the 6th best FG% defense in NBA history

    I understand 98-99 was a lockout year, but is there something that makes 03-04 special?

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    Default Re: The Pacers have the 6th best FG% defense in NBA history

    Quote Originally Posted by cgg View Post
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    I understand 98-99 was a lockout year, but is there something that makes 03-04 special?
    I have no idea, but there must have been something.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have the 6th best FG% defense in NBA history

    98-99 and 03-04 both have noticeably lower average FG% league wide than every year since and very similar avg fg%.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have the 6th best FG% defense in NBA history

    Quote Originally Posted by cgg View Post
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    98-99 and 03-04 both have noticeably lower average FG% league wide than every year since and very similar avg fg%.
    I find it hard to believe that everyone's defense just suddenly improved greatly for one season, then fell off without there being some kind of rule change or something that would cause it.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have the 6th best FG% defense in NBA history

    98-99:.437
    03-04:.439
    12-13:.447

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    Default Re: The Pacers have the 6th best FG% defense in NBA history

    http://hoopedia.nba.com/index.php?title=NBA_Rules_History_1980-Present
    2003-04


    • For a 20-Second Timeout, the official shall instruct the timer to record the 20 seconds and to inform him when the time has expired.
    • If a team calls a 20-second timeout because one of its players is injured and, at the expiration of the 20-second timeout limit, play is unable to resume due to that player's injury, a full timeout will be charged to that team and 20-second timeout returned.
    • The 24-second clock shall remain the same as when play was interrupted or reset to 5 seconds, whichever is greater, any time on jump balls retained by the offensive team as the result of a held ball caused by the defense.

    2004-05

    • New rules were introduced to curtail hand-checking, clarify blocking fouls and call defensive three seconds to open up the game.


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    Default Re: The Pacers have the 6th best FG% defense in NBA history

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Wasn't 98-99 a lockout season too? It's interesting that everyone on that list is either the 98-99 season or the 03-04 season, with the exception of us and a 97-98 Spurs season. Damn good company. I don't suspect we will hold that number all season, but it shows we really do have an elite defensive team.
    Here's the thing about that. The Spurs have 97-98, but in the other cases first place was not only not far ahead of 2nd, but not far ahead of 3rd either. In the case of the Pacers this season they are WAY out in front of everyone else. It's not an "era" thing or rules of the year or whatever where you see many teams bunched together at the top. In the lockout season it was not only still a defensive friendly era, but many people thought that the shooting was rusty when the lockout ended.


    Edit - Thanks CGG, you already addressed it. I had only read page 1 when I posted. The Pacers might be more ahead of the mean than the teams from those other seasons.

    Of course a person could say "well those other teams dropped the mean down", so I looked at the median instead just to accommodate the idea that a few elite teams pulled the league average down.

    97-98: mean .450, median .448 - T'Wolves DEF FG% with 14 teams higher, 14 teams lower
    98-99: mean .437, median .439 - The Raps, 14 teams above them and 14 below.
    03-04: mean .439, median .437 - Cavs, 14 above, 14 below
    12-13: mean .447, median .448 - ORL/DAL, you can group 15 teams above and 15 below this line if you put ORL in one and DAL in the other

    So for the most part the middle of the road defense is about the same as the league average, just a tick up or down. Having several elite teams did help the average in 98-99 but wasn't enough to overcome the impact of having some very bad defenses pulling up the average in 03-04.

    Ratio to the MEDIAN of that season:

    1. San Antonio Spurs 1998-99 .439/.402 = 1.092 (1 point to 2nd, 9 points to 3rd, both on this list)
    2. New York Knicks 1998-99 .439/.403 = 1.089
    3. San Antonio Spurs 2003-04 .437/.409 = 1.068 (3 points to 2nd, 4 points to 3rd, both on this list)
    4. Miami Heat 1998-99 .439/.411 = 1.068
    5. San Antonio Spurs 1997-98 .448/.411 = 1.090 (and 2nd was 17 points behind at 428)
    6. Indiana Pacers 2012-13 .448/.412 = 1.087 (2nd is 17 points behind at 429)
    7. Houston Rockets 2003-04 .437/.412 = 1.061
    7. Detroit Pistons 2003-04 .437/.413 = 1.058

    This puts the 97-98 Spurs in 2nd in terms of comparison to the middle of the road defense that season. Then the Knicks and then the current Pacers. And as I mentioned already, you see a massive gulf between 1st and 2nd with the Pacers and with the 97-98 Spurs.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 01-13-2013 at 02:26 AM.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have the 6th best FG% defense in NBA history

    To expand further, this list should have 10 teams, not 8, because two other teams are TIED WITH DETROIT. The 1998-99 Utah Jazz and Atlanta Hawks. Meaning that 5 of the top 10 FG% defenses are from that same season, hmmmmm. Definitely shows that shooting after the lockout was not good. 98-99 Portland and GSW also show up in the top 20.


    Did Yao "free up" Stevie Franchise to defend the perimeter? F*** no! Turns out that Rockets team is an anomaly because they were 3rd WORST in 3P% allowed. So sure, in the paint you had trouble. But the Rockets let teams bomb away from the outside at will.


    Along those lines, I looked into eFG% since the Pacers are leading in Opp 3P% this season too. The first thing I found is that you have to eliminate non-3pt era teams obviously because they didn't take that hit for letting a guy make a long outside shot.
    So modifying the search to only allow teams that had at least 100 3PA against them (basically the 3pt era) we get the top eFG% teams:

    98-99 SAS .423
    03-04 SAS .433
    98-99 NYK .434
    98-99 ATL .437
    97-98 SAS .437
    98-99 MIA .439
    03-04 DET .441
    98-99 UTH .441

    99-00 LAL .443
    12-13 IND .443
    00-01 SAS .444


    Every team except the ones in bold are from the 98-99 or 03-04 seasons, with 5 of the top 8 coming from the notorious 98-99 season. The 03-04 and 98-99 champs are both represented on this list, as are the 99-00 and 00-01 champs. The only team on the list not from a season in which the champ is also on the list (or was the champ) is the 97-98 Spurs who lost to the Jazz. The Jazz were only 9th in Opp FG% but were first in team FG% with a staggering .490 make rate. They had the #1 record and shot it better than the Kobe/Shaq Lakers and the Payton Sonics, as well as the killer shooting Pacers (the Bulls weren't that great a FG% team that year).

    For the most part, however, the defensive champ types aren't elite offenses, but they are above average. That's the thing that hurts Indiana. They need to get that FG% up toward .440 if they want a title run, or so it would seem by the statistics. However a 44% for the season would also imply something of a 56-60 win pace, far better than where they've been so far. Of course to get the average up to that level they'd have to be shooting it even better than 44%, and with their defense that would imply a ton of wins the rest of the way, putting 60 wins on the map.

    It seems unlikely that this happens, which in turn means that while they are an elite defensive team they simply don't have the offense to be a title winner and/or 60 game winner. Of course things have been improving and Danny is yet to return, so anything is possible.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have the 6th best FG% defense in NBA history

    Seth, I'd thank you again if you could simply "dumb down" your posts for people like me that have a low basketball IQ.

    I'm guessing that you're saying that the current Pacers Team is a good defensive Team when compared to the rest of the Teams in the same season while comparing us to the other defensive juggernauts of the past ( when comparing them to their respective Teams in the same year ) ?
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    The 2004 pistons post-sheed allowed 78.2 ppg for the rest of the season and an absurd .382 FG%.

    In the playoffs, they allowed 80.7 on .392.

    Even in that era, those are defensive numbers absurdly ahead of everybody else. Those numbers are absurdly better than anybody else in any era after 1954.
    Last edited by Kstat; 01-13-2013 at 03:48 AM.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have the 6th best FG% defense in NBA history

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Seth, I'd thank you again if you could simply "dumb down" your posts for people like me that have a low basketball IQ.

    I'm guessing that you're saying that the current Pacers Team is a good defensive Team when compared to the rest of the Teams in the same season while comparing us to the other defensive juggernauts of the past ( when comparing them to their respective Teams in the same year ) ?
    Right. CGG brought up what I was going to bring up, which is how are they doing relative to the tone of the league. Are the rules, styles, rosters conducive to poor shooting? Clearly the 98-99 season was and skews the overall results to the point that from an analysis standpoint I'd ignore it as an outlier.

    03-04 has a change in hand checking enforcement and we again saw several teams put up big (low) numbers in DEF FG%, although not as many. I think the case that the 03-04 teams were just damn good defenses is far more legit than the idea that 98-99 was just a magical season of tough defenses.

    The Pacers and the 97-98 Spurs were holding teams to a FG% WAY below 2nd place and in relation to the typical team they both have strong ratios (what they allow vs what a typical team allowed). So that COULD mean that if you put either of those teams into the 98-99 season or the 03-04 season they might have lead the league in FG% defense with an even lower rate than they allow(ed).




    The reason for using the median (the middle point where as many numbers fall above the line as below it) instead of the mean is to get rid of a shift caused by an outlier(s) that pulls the average hard one way or the other and skews the real league standard/average. Like everyone is 5'7" to 6'3" except for one guy at 7'3" which brings the average height from 5'11" to 6'2". That's not the real "typical" because only a few people are that tall or taller.

    Average is fine, but in this case one of the problems could have been the data affecting itself. With only 28-29 other samples in the set, 2-3 really low (or high) numbers could pull the whole average over and make things look better or worse than they were.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have the 6th best FG% defense in NBA history

    I'd also add a tidbit from 2004 that only Pistons fans remember, since it was so brief:

    The pit-bull trap.

    A 2-2-1 full court press that was the most unfair defense I've ever seen on a pro level. It was the brainchild of Larry Brown and it was the driving force behind our under-70 streak.

    Mike James and Lindsey Hunter up front trapping the inbounds pass, Rasheed Wallace and Tayshaun Prince covering the middle of the floor, and if you got past them, you had Ben Wallace protecting the rim.

    Basically, it was a defense designed to turn the other team's point guard into a pile of jelly. We never allowed a guard to get the ball past halfcourt. And once it found it's way into the hands of a big man, it was open season.

    We were forced to scrap it halfway through the first round because Sheed hurt his foot and couldn't cover enough ground to make it work anymore, and then we lost Mike James after the season, but for a very brief time that was the most devastating defensive scheme I ever saw. We were holding teams to 63-68 points almost every single game, and there was nothing passive about it. We were pressing and trapping full court, and teams simply could not get off a good shot. Sheed in his prime in the middle of the trap knew exactly where to be, and he was still athletic enough to get there.
    Last edited by Kstat; 01-13-2013 at 06:21 AM.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have the 6th best FG% defense in NBA history

    This was a few years after 04, but I remember one game when Eddie House tried to dribble the ball up the court and Lindsey Hunter stripped him and took the ball for a lay up on two consecutive possessions. I almost felt bad for Eddie, I was praying for him to make it past half court.

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    Default Re: The Pacers have the 6th best FG% defense in NBA history

    If Hunter had any kind of offensive IQ whatsoever he'd be remembered in the same breath as Gary Payton as one of the great ballhawks of all time. He just couldn't stay on the floor because he was so inept with a basketball in his hands.

    Mike James wasn't quite as good, but he was right up there in his prime. The two of them together were brutal. No matter who you turned your back on, you were in trouble.

    I wish there was film of it on youtube. Larry Brown was the most creative defensive coach I ever saw, he had a roster that could run almost any kind of pressure defense he wanted to dial up, and he had the ideal coach on the floor in Rasheed to make sure it was done correctly.
    Last edited by Kstat; 01-13-2013 at 06:28 AM.

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