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Thread: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23 View Post
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    You don't seem to get it. When West signed with us, he wanted away from his present team. He had two, and as far as I know, ONLY two opportunities in front of him. Boston was offering him less money (I don't recall the duration) and the Pacers were offering him 20m/2 years. So, exactly how is that a discount? Where were all the other teams that were supposed to be throwing money at him?

    To get a lot more money, you need teams capable and willing to show the quan. And even a couple of those teams are out there, are they destinations that West will accept? The man has already said that he is about winning and that this team is making very good progress maturing and becoming a contender. I believe West to be more "intellectual" than most players. I think he sees the possibility of a championship here and might be open to the needs of the Pacers dollar-wise to help make that happen. If that means that he might be wing to take 36m over 4 years rather than 10m for 3 years or even a little less, then yes, I do think a man like West could be open to it.

    But I believe West is the key. If West is willing to do it, then a year later, I expect Granger to CFO the same a year later.

    As for Walsh, he would have to see how close the Pacers are. I think he will do whatever he can not to eff that up. That means getting concessions, if possible.
    Oh i get it....

    DAvid West never really got his huge payday....after being an Allstar he was looking for his motherload contract...only to tragically blow out his knee months before he wouldve likely gotten a max deal....so he worked his butt off and took what a guy like him with a blown out knee would have to take....he took our deal because it was shorter...2 yeasrs got him to the magic 10 year service number....to think hes now gonna do the pacers a huge favor and give them millons of dollars in discounts just because hes cerebral...well....im not sure how cerebral or smart that would be....youre right..hes a very smart guy....and he knows hes more valuable to this team than hibbert...his numbers are better and more importantly hes the leader...the unquestioned leader...listen to Vogel...its all West....WEst is smart and so is his agent...and Donnie has never made it a habit to insult his own leaders....and the deals you and others are proposing would definitely be perceived as an insult....but like i said...differing opinions...we will know in a few months...

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  3. #127
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Huh???? where did the 34 million dollars come from???? you keep making stuff up...
    You're right. I failed the math here. Should have said 36. 58 - 22 = 36

    I'm not making stuff up. I'm just saying that what Memphis tried to do failed because they overpaid Rudy Gay by at least 20 million. If we're going to overpay someone by 20 million then we will probably fail as well.

    If we don't then we'll be able to do it. That's my point.

    I didn't answer the rest of your posts because I had to go out and now I'm watching the game. But I'll answer to all of them later
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by DGPR View Post
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    Lebron wanted Larry Hughes, Shaq, and a good majority of the players they brought on board. That's why you don't let the players dictate who should be on the team. It worked out in Miami until they have to start paying enormous amounts of LT.
    Right. As far as I know, the only potential game-changing deal they left on the table was the Hickson/Stoudemire deal. And Cleveland would have either lost Amar'e for nothing that summer or been stuck with his bad knees and a $100M contract. Not saying the FO was great or even good during LeBron's Cleveland days, but they definitely kept him in the loop and did everything they could to keep him happy.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    REduce it to the ridiculous? only a couple problems with that...Roy has never even shot 50% from the field..in fact very few in the league ever have shot 60%....and how bout we look at his performance based on what it actually is versus some hypothetical?....I mean we can do that with every player in the league, no? If every guy in the league shot 60% then they likely would be making the max....and there are alot and i do mean a lot of guys alot closer to shoooting 60% than Roy...that would require Roy improve by 50% right now....now that is pretty far-fetched dont u think? wanting someone to improve by half of their current level? If he does that in rebounds he will be at 12 and blocks would be 4.....so with all that you just described Dwight Howard or the like...lol...cmon...how bout we stick to the actual facts...

    I'm not saying that I want Roy to improve by half of their current level. I was just making a simple hypothesis. If Roy makes 2 more tip ins per game, would that be enough to justify his contract to some people? They answered no and I said that if he did make those 2 extra tip ins per game his FG would increase to 60% (per game so on average he'd just went to around 50%) and his PPG would increase to 13.5 PPG.

    2 more made tip ins every game is not something astronomical or extremely far-fethced. Is it?

    Yes, I know that Roy has never shot 50%. His career high was 49.5%. Wanna know why? Bigs that have a back to the basket game normally shoot below 50%.

    David West is a career 48.9% shooter.

    LaMarcus Aldridge is a career 49.2% shooter.

    Zach Randolph is a career 47.5% shooter.

    DeMarcus Cousins is a career 43.2% shooter.

    Chris Kaman is a career 48.4% shooter.

    Andray Blatche is a career 46% shooter.

    There are exceptions, of course. Marc Gasol is at 52.3% (although he has been under 50% since he started taking more than 10 FGA per game) and Andrew Bynum is at 56.6%.

    You said that if everyone in the league was shooting 60% they'd be making the max, didn't you?

    Let's take a look at which players actually shoot over 60%.

    DeAndre Jordan is a career 63.5% shooter.

    Andris Biedrins has had several seasons over 60% and he is a 59.5% shooter for his career. Andre Drummond is shooting 59.2%. Tyson Chandler has had 3 consecutive season over 65% (the last two are over 67%) and he is a career 58.4% shooter.

    What do those players have in common? They are athletic bigs that have as a main job to defender, rebound and finish at the rim. They rarely play with their backs to the basket and are not asked to create offense from the post.

    Simply put, it's a lot harder to score out of post ups than it is to score out of Pnr or misses.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    You couldve said that exact same thing about Roy last year...in fact alot were...remind me how that turned out? remember something...the max that can be offered West and then to Danny is a deal starting at 19....thats right..19....
    Eeeerm, nope. No one said that Roy wouldn't get the max last year. Most people were convinced that he'd take the max. Peck said that Roy would be offered the max as early as that Lakers game in which Roy dominated with a broken nose.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    If Roy Hibbert were to have made 2 more tip ins each game, he would have made 94 of his 59 tip in attempts.
    So, he isn't credited with a FGA if the tip is made?

    What I'm alluding is quite simple. Don't throw the ball in the post to Roy. Have him operate off of misses or out of the PnR with the occasional jump shot.

    Just take a look at this link -> http://hoopchalk.com/2012/12/20/exam...hot-struggles/

    Hibbert lost his hook shot for whatever reason and that has influenced his whole offensive repertoire. This graph further confirms it -> http://www.basketball-reference.com/...shooting/2013/

    Simply put, the "give Roy the ball and let him do the work" approach is not working so far. So, why not change the approach?
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    About the whole West and Granger issue now. I have to ask you a question, cinotimz.

    You seem to be operating on the assumption that Walsh is going to make the call. How so? Are we that sure that there's no way that Bird returns?

    And another question. If Walsh is still the GM. Are we sure that he is going to keep his old habits? Weren't those habits that lost him his job?

    And a third question. What kind of money do you think that West and Granger could be offered in the open market?
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    About the whole West and Granger issue now. I have to ask you a question, cinotimz.

    You seem to be operating on the assumption that Walsh is going to make the call. How so? Are we that sure that there's no way that Bird returns?

    And another question. If Walsh is still the GM. Are we sure that he is going to keep his old habits? Weren't those habits that lost him his job?

    And a third question. What kind of money do you think that West and Granger could be offered in the open market?
    Simon is going to be the one that makes this decision.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    .. I don't know if a lot of you just don't know basketball or you don't watch the game, but Roy defense is not that good. I was at the game against NewYork, we had a 12 point lead Roy entered the game and they pick and rolled him to death till we were downy eight. Roy was put on the bench and we went back up by 8. Why else do you think so many times this year Vogel has benched Roy at the end of the game. It also happen last night against the bobcats Roy was sat at the end of the game and the Pacers went on a run. Sure he blocks a couple shots a game but he gives up at leaste 20-30 because he is slow and not athletic and lacks instinct. He is soft as charming tissue.. I have never seen a player fall to the ground and be pushed around so much. I have not even began to talk about his offense. Roy is not a basketball player heis just tall. He continues to switch on pick and rolls and guard small guards which is impossible. If possible pacers should trade Roy. He was given a max contract on hopes he would get better, from what he has shown he has not. Roy is nothing more than a black version of Shawn Bradley....if he had a normal center who shot closer to 50 percent the game would be so much easier. Stop drinking the Kool - aid and making excuses for the man.

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  14. #135
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Millertime3131 View Post
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    .. I don't know if a lot of you just don't know basketball or you don't watch the game, but Roy defense is not that good. I was at the game against NewYork, we had a 12 point lead Roy entered the game and they pick and rolled him to death till we were downy eight. Roy was put on the bench and we went back up by 8. Why else do you think so many times this year Vogel has benched Roy at the end of the game. It also happen last night against the bobcats Roy was sat at the end of the game and the Pacers went on a run.
    Eeeerm, Roy has been playing with an injured back in the NYK and Charlotte games. There have only been 3 games in which Roy was not there during the final minutes of the game. The Lakers game (he had 6 fouls in that game) and the two games in which he has been playing injured.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    So, he isn't credited with a FGA if the tip is made?

    What I'm alluding is quite simple. Don't throw the ball in the post to Roy. Have him operate off of misses or out of the PnR with the occasional jump shot.

    Just take a look at this link -> http://hoopchalk.com/2012/12/20/exam...hot-struggles/

    Hibbert lost his hook shot for whatever reason and that has influenced his whole offensive repertoire. This graph further confirms it -> http://www.basketball-reference.com/...shooting/2013/

    Simply put, the "give Roy the ball and let him do the work" approach is not working so far. So, why not change the approach?
    Because youre forgetting that Roy is incredibly fragile mentally...Vogel handles Roy in the only real way you can and be effective...even when hes playing beyond what is comprehensible, you just pretend nothing is out of the ordinary...thus still making him as confident and productive as possible...especially on the dfensive end...otherwise he would get so down on himself and just disappear...on both ends...then we would have a real mess on our hands...

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Eeeerm, Roy has been playing with an injured back in the NYK and Charlotte games. There have only been 3 games in which Roy was not there during the final minutes of the game. The Lakers game (he had 6 fouls in that game) and the two games in which he has been playing injured.
    You seem to have this tendency of losing sight of the forest for the trees....the real point of his post wasnt how many games that Roy hasnt finished...but how poor his defense is in the PnR....which you conveniently totally avoided...as is often the case....you take a secondary comment often times and try to some hypothecize something to the contrary when the main concern has completely gone over your head....

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    About the whole West and Granger issue now. I have to ask you a question, cinotimz.

    You seem to be operating on the assumption that Walsh is going to make the call. How so? Are we that sure that there's no way that Bird returns?

    And another question. If Walsh is still the GM. Are we sure that he is going to keep his old habits? Weren't those habits that lost him his job?

    And a third question. What kind of money do you think that West and Granger could be offered in the open market?
    1. Well Walsh is the GM....what a silly assumption on my part...actually, now that I think about it, Pritchard is the GM...but for this discussion its the same difference as Walsh is the ultimate decision maker...and West will be a free agent in just a few months...so silly me...as for the real issue..the underlying issue...that being the Luxury Tax...as one individual already pointed out thats Simons call...and hes already made it very clear...as for if Bird returns, you sure do like to deal with the dream versus the reality...what if Roy tips in two more shots....what if Bird returns...how bout we deal with those things if and when the time comes....and if Bird does return, which I personally believe is a realy possibility...not much will change...remember Jeff Foster? Bird isnt any more compelled to insult the veteran leader he went out and personally got than Walsh is...nor the guy he personally drafted and made the face of the franchise....you just like to argue to argue...and lose sight of the forest for the trees far too often...

    2. You cant change a leopards spots...Walsh is the way he is...and he never lost the Pacers job...he quit/retired or whatever u would like to call it...he goes a very long ways back with Simon and Simon idolizes the guy...so..no...not likely hes suddenly changed his whole philosophies once hitting the other side of 70

    3. What kind of money they might bring in the open market isnt as relevant as it normally might be...you are dealing with proven veteran leadership/face of the franchise type people...and even if it did...it only takes one team...and history shows us that one team will often show its head....just as it did with roy last year which is why we are even having this conversation to begin with...
    Last edited by cinotimz; 01-13-2013 at 09:02 AM.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    yeah i kinda wish we didnt match portlands offer for Hibbert, nice guy and all, but now his career will be marred by this deal, like Austin Croshere, nice guy and played hard, but was overpaid and most folks only remember him for that, no way hibbert was worth that contract, Ian has been outplaying him all year and look at his contract numbers, if we can get a deal for Hibbert, do it!! as long as its not a really bad contract in return, too bad portland wouldnt take hibbert and we get Lillard, lol

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    [QUOTE=cinotimz;1563334]1. Well Walsh is the GM....what a silly assumption on my part...actually, now that I think about it, Pritchard is the GM...but for this discussion its the same difference as Walsh is the ultimate decision maker...and West will be a free agent in just a few months...so silly me...as for the real issue..the underlying issue...that being the Luxury Tax...as one individual already pointed out thats Simons call...and hes already made it very clear...as for if Bird returns, you sure do like to deal with the dream versus the reality...what if Roy tips in two more shots....what if Bird returns...how bout we deal with those things if and when the time comes....and if Bird does return, which I personally believe is a realy possibility...not much will change...remember Jeff Foster? Bird isnt any more compelled to insult the veteran leader he went out and personally got than Walsh is...nor the guy he personally drafted and made the face of the franchise....you just like to argue to argue...and lose sight of the forest for the trees far too often...

    Bird won't return unless Simon gives him complete control and money to really build a winner. That won't happen and Bird won't return with out that kind of committment.....

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by SIR-LANCE-ALOT View Post
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    yeah i kinda wish we didnt match portlands offer for Hibbert, nice guy and all, but now his career will be marred by this deal, like Austin Croshere, nice guy and played hard, but was overpaid and most folks only remember him for that, no way hibbert was worth that contract, Ian has been outplaying him all year and look at his contract numbers, if we can get a deal for Hibbert, do it!! as long as its not a really bad contract in return, too bad portland wouldnt take hibbert and we get Lillard, lol
    Hibbert's contract is fair for the asset he is. He is a big and bigs always get more money because they are harder to find. If Ian could really out play him, he would be starting. He can't. Hibbert is the defensive core to this team and he is still improving. Big centers are a hot ticket item.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Lol at the guy that said Roy is terrible at defense... Are you serious? He's a DPOY candidate. He's the anchor of our defense. Without him we do not have the best D In the league. Yeah the PnR is his one weak spot but he alters so many shots at the rim that its not even funny. People are scared to drive against him so they take low percentage shots. Not all that shows up on the stat sheet. And he still has good rebound and block numbers. So before you throw Around the "you people don't know basketball" ****, how bout you learn some basketball your self.

    I mean I'm one of Roy's harshest critics of his offense, but don't insult the man. He's a defensive monster. Yeah I wish he was a little tougher and it's clear he needs to lose a few lbs, but he's still a monster on the defensive side of the ball.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    Hibbert's contract is fair for the asset he is. He is a big and bigs always get more money because they are harder to find. If Ian could really out play him, he would be starting. He can't. Hibbert is the defensive core to this team and he is still improving. Big centers are a hot ticket item.
    Always have been, always will be. You can't teach heigth. 7 footers who can walk and chew gum at the same time are going to get paid. If they can also rebound and block/change shots, they are going to get paid really well.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    1. Well Walsh is the GM....what a silly assumption on my part...actually, now that I think about it, Pritchard is the GM...but for this discussion its the same difference as Walsh is the ultimate decision maker...and West will be a free agent in just a few months...so silly me...as for the real issue..the underlying issue...that being the Luxury Tax...as one individual already pointed out thats Simons call...and hes already made it very clear...as for if Bird returns, you sure do like to deal with the dream versus the reality...what if Roy tips in two more shots....what if Bird returns...how bout we deal with those things if and when the time comes....and if Bird does return, which I personally believe is a realy possibility...not much will change...remember Jeff Foster? Bird isnt any more compelled to insult the veteran leader he went out and personally got than Walsh is...nor the guy he personally drafted and made the face of the franchise....you just like to argue to argue...and lose sight of the forest for the trees far too often...

    2. You cant change a leopards spots...Walsh is the way he is...and he never lost the Pacers job...he quit/retired or whatever u would like to call it...he goes a very long ways back with Simon and Simon idolizes the guy...so..no...not likely hes suddenly changed his whole philosophies once hitting the other side of 70

    3. What kind of money they might bring in the open market isnt as relevant as it normally might be...you are dealing with proven veteran leadership/face of the franchise type people...and even if it did...it only takes one team...and history shows us that one team will often show its head....just as it did with roy last year which is why we are even having this conversation to begin with...
    I'm still holding out hope that either Bird is back next year or someone new is in charge instead of Walsh. If anyone is willing to pay more then market value it would be Walsh but keep in mind that even Walsh let Brad Miller walk when the price was too high for him.
    Bird is simply more shrewd, that's how we landed West for 10 mil in the first place. Foster's last deal was for 3 mil, before that he made 6 mil.
    Bird would not shell out 15 mil for West or Granger, I even have doubts if we'd still have Hibbert if he were calling the shots last summer.
    Market Value will always dictate how much a player gets paid.
    Name a team that's going to pay Granger or West 15 mil., seriously try to think of one.????
    If they were both 24 and hadn't hit their potential then maybe, but not now.
    Granger still has to prove he's his old self and I hope he does, if not his salary is a mute point.
    West will be 33 years old going into his next contract, he isn't getting that kind of money.
    If Granger is healthy then we match market value on both. That's still a lot but I think it's a contract starting at 10-11 mil. All this comes down to the fact that we can afford to keep our core together if we want.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    I'm still holding out hope that either Bird is back next year or someone new is in charge instead of Walsh. If anyone is willing to pay more then market value it would be Walsh but keep in mind that even Walsh let Brad Miller walk when the price was too high for him.
    Bird is simply more shrewd, that's how we landed West for 10 mil in the first place. Foster's last deal was for 3 mil, before that he made 6 mil.
    Bird would not shell out 15 mil for West or Granger, I even have doubts if we'd still have Hibbert if he were calling the shots last summer.
    Market Value will always dictate how much a player gets paid.
    Name a team that's going to pay Granger or West 15 mil., seriously try to think of one.????
    If they were both 24 and hadn't hit their potential then maybe, but not now.
    Granger still has to prove he's his old self and I hope he does, if not his salary is a mute point.
    West will be 33 years old going into his next contract, he isn't getting that kind of money.
    If Granger is healthy then we match market value on both. That's still a lot but I think it's a contract starting at 10-11 mil. All this comes down to the fact that we can afford to keep our core together if we want.
    To be fair say what you will about Walsh, we did more winning under him than we did under Bird

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    3. What kind of money they might bring in the open market isnt as relevant as it normally might be...you are dealing with proven veteran leadership/face of the franchise type people...and even if it did...it only takes one team...and history shows us that one team will often show its head....just as it did with roy last year which is why we are even having this conversation to begin with...
    I think this is the area where I have the disagreement with you.

    A young player, coming off his rookie contract, is more problematic for his team. First off, he's looking to get into big money, because as a rookie, he hasn't made it yet. And there are teams who will look at his prior performance and his young age and recognize that a player like Hibbert still has the potential to continue to grow his game. If you combine those points with the fact that the young player will go anywher he has to to score that first big contract, then I think you can agree that Hibbert was going to get his max offer from some team out there last summer.

    Veterans, I think are a different breed than rookies. First off, many have already scored at least one sizable contract. So looking at the last few years of their careers, other things become more important to them. You saw Nash worm his way to LA so he could be near his kids. Payton and Malone took peanuts on the dollar to attempt to get their rings. James, Wade and Bosh left a lot of money on the table to collude their way onto the same team in Miami to win as many rings as they can.

    I think you see two things in veteran players as they get older, especially those that have already had their big paydays. They want to keep playing for as long as they can, and they want to win. It is true that all it takes is one team to make a ridiculous offer and the former team is screwed, one way or the other. But I think that is far more true when you are talking about a player coming off of a rookie contract than it is for older veteran players. The older veteran player will be far more selective where he wants to go.

    And those with very good skills like Granger and West can be very selective where they want to go. At the end of their present contracts they both will have made over 50M in their careers. Now, they want to win it all. Where will they have the best opportunity of accomplishing that? And more importantly, if they conclude tha the Pacers offer provide the best opportunity for them, will they cooperate a little with management, like other players have done before them, to ensure that the team can keep the players it needs to have the best shot at winning a championship?

    As for Simon, one thing sticks out in my mind. And that is a statement that Bird once made that Simon was willing to pay the luxury tax if we had a team that coul contend for a championship. If that would not apply now, it never will. I would not expect Simon to allow the Pacers to exceed the limit by $15M because under the new CBA that would eventually cost him a small fortune. But I would not be surprised if Simon would allow Walsh to exceed it by 2M-3M.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad-Mad-Mario View Post
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    To be fair say what you will about Walsh, we did more winning under him than we did under Bird
    To also be fair he was here a lot longer. I've been a fan for a very long time and remember some horrible teams and horrible moves by Walsh during his early years. If you compare Larry's 5 years in control to Donnie's first 5 years it isn't even close.
    Walsh did put together a great team eventually but it took a lot longer then it did for Larry. I'll take Bird over Walsh easily.

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    Cool Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    To also be fair he was here a lot longer. I've been a fan for a very long time and remember some horrible teams and horrible moves by Walsh during his early years. If you compare Larry's 5 years in control to Donnie's first 5 years it isn't even close.
    Walsh did put together a great team eventually but it took a lot longer then it did for Larry. I'll take Bird over Walsh easily.
    I think most people would. Walsh walked when the team he built collapsed and left the rebuilding to Bird.....

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Roy Hibbert is terrible against the pick and roll , he is too slow to cover a driving player away from the basket. Roy's strength on defense is when he is under the basket and a player comes to him. One on one away from the basket Roy's lack of mobility is a huge problem. So his blocks have increased by 1/2 a shot a game but he's still at best average when posted up or driven on.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Roy is terrible at defense? I...I...I don't know what to say to that.

    If people can't see that Roy is playing defense at an elite level...I don't know what to say.

    He challenges everything at the rim, only has one real defensive weakness (Slow footspeed hurting him in PnR defense), has cut down on his fouls, has learned to stay on his feet which keeps him involved defensively (Doesn't bite on pump fakes)...it goes on and on.

    Criticize away about his offense, it seriously can't get any worse. But recognize his defense is elite.

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