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Thread: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    I think that some people here when they read about Hibbert's offensive game or actually the lack of it, automatically jump on the X poster who said it, like he also disregarded his defensive qualities when it's not true. You know, when they say Hibbert doesn't deserve the max contract or he sucks offensively, they mean that and just that. I think someone would be crazy if he disregarded Roy's massive defensive qualities and service to this team.

    As for the question, he offers too much on defense to be traded. I've personally ripped him apart during the games for his pathetic offensive game but also praised him for his magnificent D. Unless you offer me Mark Gasol or Dwight Howard (although he seems a bit difficult character and a moaner), I wouldn't trade him. If he consistently sucks next year and the year after, then you need to think about it more. But right now I wouldn't touch this team. They are plain and simple beasts on the defensive end and I don't care if they are not pretty wins as long as we keep playing like we are lately and getting the Ws of course. We also expect Danny to come back. Just the thought we add more size and strength when Danny comes back, makes me even happier.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    The problem will be how do you re-sign West, George, Granger and Stephenson, plus 2-#1 picks and 3 role players and stay under the new stiff luxury tax in the next 2 off season for 30-33 mil?

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Since I have contributed nothing useful to this thread, I will say that I think there is zero chance Roy gets traded. Really, I don't see this team making any moves in season. Maybe if something came up to upgrade the bench that didn't cost us any real assets, but I doubt a deal like that comes along. They are riding this out and rightfully so.
    I'll go a bit further. There are very few threads that I would label dumb. However, I would label this thread "irrelevant". Why? Because this team under Vogel has established great chemistry and have become a contending team, a truly elite team on the defensive end of the floor.

    TPTB will absolutely not screw up what they have by trading one of their primary players. They will allow this team to run its course, through the end of this season and possibly beyond, into the next season or two. Either their best player, or second best player, depending on your perspective, has not even played a game yet this season. So, to think that TPTB would disturb the present mix is absurd. Therefore, the thread is irrelevant.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by diamonddave00 View Post
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    The problem will be how do you re-sign West, George, Granger and Stephenson, plus 2-#1 picks and 3 role players and stay under the new stiff luxury tax in the next 2 off season for 30-33 mil?
    Let's assume for a moment that the Pacers are a contending team. Based on everything that Walsh has ever done, he will not disturb his roster, although he may tweak some of the fringe players. So, things they might do is to dump Green with a first rounder to get rid of Green's last to years plus the guaranteed expense of the pick. There are ways to shed salary and help keep expenses down.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by chungyus View Post
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    After Mahimi came into the game, that same play never worked again.
    That play stopped working because the Knicks took Prigioni out of the game. Kidd cannot penetrate and dish anymore.

    Of course, Mahinmi is a better PnR defender than Roy.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Yes....Ive always thought that...and I think its pretty obvious that hes not a max player...It was absolutely certain the Pacers could not let Hibbert walk for nothing...to do so would have been insane from an asset management standpoint...and Paul Allen- in his attempt to stick it to KP-offered the max knowing full well the Pacers would have to match and thereby overpay...
    If you always thought that then fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    and hes not as elite as some would have u believe defensively...hes very good at some things defensively....but he struggles mightily versus the pick and roll...so saying hes elite is just not accurate...in our normal starting lineup Roy would most likely be considered the 4th best player in the lineup behind Granger, George and West...and probably would be considered close to Hill....that guy cant be a max guy...he just cant...if he were making hill money or granger money...ok...but max money? no...its gonna continue to grow to be a problem...
    Actually, Roy is only making a bit more than Granger money. But I digress.

    It's true that Roy is not a good PnR defender. His mobility is not great and thus struggle to defend it against quicker, more athletic Centers and PGs that can shoot the floater.

    But he is an elite rim protector and a very good post defender. He is also very good at boxing out. Roy's man rarely gets an offensive rebound when Roy is on him and not attempting to block a shot.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    If you always thought that then fair enough.



    Actually, Roy is only making a bit more than Granger money. But I digress.

    It's true that Roy is not a good PnR defender. His mobility is not great and thus struggle to defend it against quicker, more athletic Centers and PGs that can shoot the floater.

    But he is an elite rim protector and a very good post defender. He is also very good at boxing out. Roy's man rarely gets an offensive rebound when Roy is on him and not attempting to block a shot.
    But Roy making a bit more than Danny is a huge problem...Roy is in his 5th season...Danny in his 8th....Roy is making 25% of the salary cap...one player...25% of the cap...and that player is arguably somewhere around ur 4th best player...and its only gonna get worse....it works this year because George and Lance are still on rookie deals...and West is a bargain....but that all will be changing in the next couple of years and it wont work anymore...anyone here think that Paul isnt likely to command a max deal? What do u pay West and Granger when Roy is making the max? You think their agents wont be mentioning that? And if Lance continues to progress hes not gonna be cheap either...An elite rim protector and a very good post defender simply cant be paid the max and it not create huge salary cap problems with trying to put the rest of the team together....

    Roy is only the second player in Pacers history to be making the max....the other Jermaine O'neal....Reggie never made the max....Granger didnt sign for the max...think about that...its going to create huge problems financially...and for those of u thinking that it wont matter if the team is contending, they will just pay them all...well...respectfully youre nuts...when James Dolan and Mark Cuban are rethinking things because of the severity of the tax, you can rest assured the Simons and their tiny market wont even be considering it...and that means theres simply not enough money to go around....Roy is great...and a great guy....but you simply cant have your 3rd, 4th or 5th best player making the max....its fools gold...unless the other guys are rookies...in which case its just a matter of time...

    Roys contract is like the pink elephant sitting in the corner....

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    It's definitely a troubling scenario for the future. I think they did the right thing in keeping Roy, just for this season alone. The Pacers are one of the best teams in the league, a borderline contender for a championship, and Roy is a big part of that, but cinotimz makes a good point. You can't have your 4th best player making 1/4 of the cap going forward. It works this year, but paydays are coming for the other better players. Either he really becomes a complete player or they will have to do something in the next 2 years to shed his contract.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    You can't do anything drastic now. If it's for a superstar-ish player, that's one thing. But selling Roy low right now for some other marginal all star with little upside wouldn't make sense.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Johanvil View Post
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    You know, when they say Hibbert doesn't deserve the max contract or he sucks offensively, they mean that and just that.
    When they say that Roy sucks offensively, I have no reason to disagree.

    But when they are saying that he didn't deserve the max contract then I just have to emphasize on his defense. If he was a bad defender (a la Jefferson) then his contract couldn't be justified when he's in a shooting slump. But he's a beast on D and that's what justifies his contract at the moment.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    and its only gonna get worse....
    Why do you think that it's only going to get worse? You seem to be basing your argument on the premise that Roy is not going to improve. That he's not going to break out of his slump. That he will only get worse.

    And that's a primary reason why we're in a disagreement. I don't think that Roy will only get worse. I think that he will only get better. And that's why we look at his contract in a different light.

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Roy is only the second player in Pacers history to be making the max....
    It's not a real max. It's as much of a Max as Marc Gasol's. Neither contract is a real max contract.

    PG will be the Pacer that is going to have a real max contract.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by diamonddave00 View Post
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    The problem will be how do you re-sign West, George, Granger and Stephenson, plus 2-#1 picks and 3 role players and stay under the new stiff luxury tax in the next 2 off season for 30-33 mil?
    Why do we only need to spend 30-33 mil for all those contracts?

    We need to be below the LT cap not below the salary cap.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Why do you think that it's only going to get worse? You seem to be basing your argument on the premise that Roy is not going to improve. That he's not going to break out of his slump. That he will only get worse.

    And that's a primary reason why we're in a disagreement. I don't think that Roy will only get worse. I think that he will only get better. And that's why we look at his contract in a different light.



    It's not a real max. It's as much of a Max as Marc Gasol's. Neither contract is a real max contract.

    PG will be the Pacer that is going to have a real max contract.
    Huh?????? NO....PG will likely get the exact same contract...Roy is making as much as the league permits this year....25% of the cap..about 14 million....and that will be all PG can make as well...based on their years of service...one could split hairs as to what the raises actually are based on roys contract being one that was matched...but thats not the issue here...and his improving isnt really the issue either...even if Roy was the offensive player he was last year..which he very well could get back to, you still have a problem...you cant pay 4 guys or thereabouts the max...i hardly think roy is gonna digress, though he certainly has offensively this year...but even best case Roy really cant be paid the max and u hang onto Danny, Paul, West, Lance, Hill, etc...

    and i was mistaken and i think i forgot Jalen Rose...i believe he got the max from donnie...and then donnie traded him...for probablythe exact reason donnie will consider trading HIbbert in the next couple of years...because hes gonna need the money to pay other guys and u simply cant tie up that much money in one guy and put togther a team with other sizable contracted veterans...

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Bottom line is this...not next season...but the season thereafter...which is basically D-day....Roy will be making 15 million.....WEst and granger are vital, No? seems unlikely either one of them will be making much less than 15...and that would require them to re-sign for less than max contracts...sooooo...u have Paul that will likely get the max which will be around 15 mill at that time....so basically u will likely have 4 guys making somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 million...then u have Hill at 8...thats 68....plus Mahinmi...another 4....thats 72....which puts u awfully close to the luxury tax....and u havent done anything with Lance...youve only got 6 guys...and youre basically at the LT....

    see the problem???????

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Bottom line is this...not next season...but the season thereafter...which is basically D-day....Roy will be making 15 million.....WEst and granger are vital, No? seems unlikely either one of them will be making much less than 15...and that would require them to re-sign for less than max contracts...sooooo...u have Paul that will likely get the max which will be around 15 mill at that time....so basically u will likely have 4 guys making somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 million...then u have Hill at 8...thats 68....plus Mahinmi...another 4....thats 72....which puts u awfully close to the luxury tax....and u havent done anything with Lance...youve only got 6 guys...and youre basically at the LT....

    see the problem???????
    I think you're overestimating Granger and West. They'll both be closer to 10 mil then 15. Market value is whatever another team is willing to offer and no team is going to offer West or Granger 15 mil. Every team has to have min. contract players and rookies. You can fill the roster with that 10 mil difference. It may be hard to keep Lance but as of now I don't think he'd get an offer of more then 2 mil. If he develops further next year you either trade him or let him walk. He isn't crucial to our success.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    When they say that Roy sucks offensively, I have no reason to disagree.

    But when they are saying that he didn't deserve the max contract then I just have to emphasize on his defense. If he was a bad defender (a la Jefferson) then his contract couldn't be justified when he's in a shooting slump. But he's a beast on D and that's what justifies his contract at the moment.
    It justifies the biggest part part of his contract but not all of it.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    you cant pay 4 guys or thereabouts the max...
    Memphis does.

    They're paying Conley $33.52M for the next 4 years on a contract that scales upwards. We're paying Hill $32M in the next 4 years on a flat contract.

    They gave Marcl Gasol what we gave Roy Hibbert.

    They're paying Zach Randolph $50M in the next 3 years. We're paying David West $10M this year and we're hoping to retain him at the 8-10 range for the next 2 years or more.

    They're paying Rudy Gay $53.67M over the next 3 years. We're paying Danny Granger $27M over the next 2.

    And we also have to pay Paul George.

    Our financial situation may be similar to the Grizzlies in 3-4 years. And that would be really sad. But at the moment we're in a much better position than them.

    My point is that some teams are indeed paying 4 guys around the max. You can do it. You can afford a really good starting 5. You just have to not seriously overpay a guy of that starting 5. That's what Memphis did with Rudy Gay. That's why they need to unload him now. But they didn't overpay Marc Gasol. And we didn't overpay Roy Hibbert. Because their contracts are not that big to put a team in a financial dent.

    If we round out our bench with smart investments (take a look in the international market, see what the Spurs are doing) then we can afford our starting 5.

    There's no need to be under the salary cap anymore. You just have to avoid the luxury tax.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    I think you're overestimating Granger and West. They'll both be closer to 10 mil then 15. Market value is whatever another team is willing to offer and no team is going to offer West or Granger 15 mil. Every team has to have min. contract players and rookies. You can fill the roster with that 10 mil difference. It may be hard to keep Lance but as of now I don't think he'd get an offer of more then 2 mil. If he develops further next year you either trade him or let him walk. He isn't crucial to our success.
    Thats wishful thinking...and not gonna happen...only way that happens is if Granger never recovers from injury...West is making 10 million right now...he signed a reduced contract coming off his major knee surgery...hes proven his worth and theres just no real way hes gonna continue to be ok with 10 million....now he might consider a shorter contract...maybe 3 years instead of 5...but to think hes gonna take what he took after his knee surgery just is not logical....hes the heart, soul and leader of this team to boot...and i can just hear you trying to tell Wests agent he needs to take 10...after he tells u youre paying HIbbert 15 and you want my guy to take 10????? same for Grangers agent....and that would require Danny take a significant paycut as he will be making 14 million next year...and both those guys max contracts are 35% of the cap since they will both be 10year vets...or around 20 million...

    10 million ???? dreaming.....

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Johanvil View Post
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    It justifies the biggest part part of his contract but not all of it.
    I can see that point of view.

    But let me ask something. If Roy started hitting 2 more baskets each game, would he justify his contract?
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Memphis does.

    They're paying Conley $33.52M for the next 4 years on a contract that scales upwards. We're paying Hill $32M in the next 4 years on a flat contract.

    They gave Marcl Gasol what we gave Roy Hibbert.

    They're paying Zach Randolph $50M in the next 3 years. We're paying David West $10M this year and we're hoping to retain him at the 8-10 range for the next 2 years or more.

    They're paying Rudy Gay $53.67M over the next 3 years. We're paying Danny Granger $27M over the next 2.

    And we also have to pay Paul George.

    Our financial situation may be similar to the Grizzlies in 3-4 years. And that would be really sad. But at the moment we're in a much better position than them.

    My point is that some teams are indeed paying 4 guys around the max. You can do it. You can afford a really good starting 5. You just have to not seriously overpay a guy of that starting 5. That's what Memphis did with Rudy Gay. That's why they need to unload him now. But they didn't overpay Marc Gasol. And we didn't overpay Roy Hibbert. Because their contracts are not that big to put a team in a financial dent.

    If we round out our bench with smart investments (take a look in the international market, see what the Spurs are doing) then we can afford our starting 5.

    There's no need to be under the salary cap anymore. You just have to avoid the luxury tax.
    Again...forget the Grizzlies....though what are they doing right now????? looking at getting rid of gay and or randolph....why???? because the LT is about to get a lot more severe....

    Look....do the math....if the LT is around 72-75 million in 2014-15....which seems to be somewhat likely....if you pay 4 guys -George, West, Granger and Hibbert 15 million each...thats 60 million....Hill is 8...thats 68.....Mahinmi is 4...thats 72 million....and 6 players....

    Hello.......you cant spend the LT threshold on 6 guys...and that doesnt address Lance...or anyone else and assuming they can dump Green....

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I can see that point of view.

    But let me ask something. If Roy started hitting 2 more baskets each game, would he justify his contract?
    Of course not.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I can see that point of view.

    But let me ask something. If Roy started hitting 2 more baskets each game, would he justify his contract?
    No....not even if he made 50% of his shots.....the guy can only realistically play 25-30 minutes a game...due to health reasons....and hes a great guy, but hes never gonna be the leader that u need...and his confidence is fragile at best as we all know....too high maintenance...too few minutes....a great great addition to have to the team...a vital cog....but hes the guy that needs to be making the 10 million versus west, paul or granger...and that 5 million is basically another rotation player...thats basically your 6th or 7th man
    Last edited by cinotimz; 01-12-2013 at 03:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Bottom line is this...not next season...but the season thereafter...which is basically D-day....Roy will be making 15 million.....WEst and granger are vital, No? seems unlikely either one of them will be making much less than 15...and that would require them to re-sign for less than max contracts...sooooo...u have Paul that will likely get the max which will be around 15 mill at that time....so basically u will likely have 4 guys making somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 million...then u have Hill at 8...thats 68....plus Mahinmi...another 4....thats 72....which puts u awfully close to the luxury tax....and u havent done anything with Lance...youve only got 6 guys...and youre basically at the LT....

    see the problem???????
    http://hoopshype.com/salaries/indiana.htm

    Here are our contracts for the 14-15 season.

    Roy Hibbert: 15 million

    George Hill: 8 million

    Ian Mahinmi: 4 million

    Gerald Green: 3.5 million

    Plumlee + OJ: 2 million (team options)

    I'll agree that PG will get the max. That will be the first season of the max so I'm not sure that it will be at 15 M yet. My guess is that it will start at 14M.

    So, let's do the math so far.

    15 + 14 + 8 + 4 + 3.5 + 2 = 46.5 Million

    We will look to resign West at the 8-10 Million range. We may resign him at 12 (something like $36M over 3 years or $48M over 4 years). There's no way we're resigning him at $14M. My best guess is that we will offer a $40M/4 year contract.

    Danny's contract will depend on how he plays after he returns this year. If he is in good form I can see us offering him a $12M per year deal for the next 4 years.

    So, 46.5 + 10 + 12 = 68.5 Million

    68.5 Million are below the LT.

    Of course, we haven't addressed Lance yet. My guess is that we will offer Lance a $4M per year deal. A contract similar to what Green gets. So, we will either unload Green to offer Lance his deal. Or if Green proves to be crucial to our bench we could retain him and not pick up the options of OJ and Miles.

    In any case, we can fit in Lance without going into LT area.

    As far as the rest of our bench is concerned. There are options. We just have to utilize them. We could fill out the bench with rookie contracts. We could scour the international market for cheap talent. It's always available. Just look at what the Spurs are doing with their bench.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

    -------------

    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

  30. #99

    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    I'm sorry, this has turned into a weird thread. Whether Roy deserved his almost MAX contract is now water under the bridge. IMO, we should do nothing with our core team at the deadline. Bring Danny back, see how he plays and take a long look at the off season. Tyler and Lance have qualifying offers at the team's option, iirc. Lance for 930,000. Tyler at 4 million and change and Ben at 873,000. When/if we let Tyler, Ben, DJ and Pendergraph walk, we clear up 10 million. That gives us enough to resign Roy if we are willing to do so. The following year is the real problem, when PG, Lance and DG come up for new contracts. Is this about right?

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  32. #100
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    Default Re: Thoughts on the appeal of Roy Hibbert to other teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Yes....Ive always thought that...and I think its pretty obvious that hes not a max player...It was absolutely certain the Pacers could not let Hibbert walk for nothing...to do so would have been insane from an asset management standpoint...and Paul Allen- in his attempt to stick it to KP-offered the max knowing full well the Pacers would have to match and thereby overpay...

    Which they did...which now gets us a very nice, but very overpaid, center....and thats even if he returns to his offensive production of last year...Roy should be better than he is offensively...and hes not as elite as some would have u believe defensively...hes very good at some things defensively....but he struggles mightily versus the pick and roll...so saying hes elite is just not accurate...in our normal starting lineup Roy would most likely be considered the 4th best player in the lineup behind Granger, George and West...and probably would be considered close to Hill....that guy cant be a max guy...he just cant...if he were making hill money or granger money...ok...but max money? no...its gonna continue to grow to be a problem...
    Here is the problem with calling it max. Not all max salaries are equal. Hell Hibbert isn't even making his max. He is only making the max that another team could offer, which is less than what the Pacers could offer. Hell he is making Granger money this year, his salary and Granger's salary are not all the different. So can we please stop calling it max, and call it what it is $13.6 million.

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