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Thread: Chad Ford Chat

  1. #201
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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    So let me get this straight. A player averages 13pts & 4rebs per game. In the offseason,. those stats get him a 3yr/10.5M contract.

    So that means a player that averages 8pts 3rebs and 3assists will get contract worth 6M per year.


    Yeah, using Green to make your point is a really good piece of evidence......

  2. #202
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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Cubs231721 View Post
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    If they went with that after next season when Danny's contract expires (and I'm not saying they should) it wouldn't exactly be a youth movement. Lance and Paul would be 5th year players, Hibbert and Hill would be in their 7th season, and West in his 12th.

    All of them besides Lance would have been starting for at least 3 years (Hill by putting a couple partial years together) and Lance would even have a couple years of major minutes under his belt. It feels like at this point like that lineup would be extremely young and by just looking at their ages they might be, but they would have quite a bit of experience.
    I must've been unclear. Replacing Danny with Lance is a sign they're starting over. Might as well go young across the board. No need to keep West if your starting wings are Paul and Lance. Not much reason to keep Hibbert or Hll either. Blow it up.

    In other words, Hill + Danny + David + Roy is much >>>>>> than Hill + Lance + David + Roy, and will be over the next three years or so. You're replacing an all-star with a sixth-man who is looking like an okay starter in a pinch (and that's a lot of progress from where he was the past two years, I'm not trying to insult him.) Might as well go young.

    I'd rather keep Danny. But I'm not a fan of youth movements. Its cagey veterans like West, Hill, and Granger that win close games, not young high-flying wings.

    Sorry if I was unclear.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  3. #203
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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    If Danny comes back and these 5 plus Ian, Lance and Green primarily go to the Finals with minimal help from Tyler and DJ then you 100% walk away from the $7m those 2 would save you, keep Orlando and Miles on rookie/minimum deals, resign West and save the "oh no Danny and Paul" discussion till you see if you are headed to another Finals run or not the following year.

    If you put the money out for 8 guys that can go to the Finals then you are done "fixing" things. I think some fans have to get out of rebuild mode from 2 years ago. They resigned Hibbert and Hill because this was the 5 they want to go with. They could be forced to let go of West if the market demands it, but ultimately they need an 8-11m PF on the team so it might as well be West.

    What they don't need is two bigs on the bench both making 4m or a BU PG making 3m and barely contributing.

    Maybe Ian doesn't keep improving and live up to his deal, but if he does then we have a 3 man big rotation with some cheap player to do the emergency work. Ditto at SF with Green or someone making Green's money. Lance dips in at PG/wing as the 6th man.


    When it comes time to give Paul 14M you'll be able to evaluate Danny and perhaps offer 9-10m instead, or look to move him if it's headed that way.


    And if the team just doesn't win games or do well in the playoffs THEN you can think about letting West go and moving Danny. But this group HAS NOT FAILED TO KICK A** YET. Can we not cut bait until after they've underperformed this spring? This means you Chad Ford, non-believer.
    Yeah, I believe that is true. If Lance is getting 30-35 minutes at the as the primary PG/wing back-up*, and it works... We could keep that core group of 6 together
    Last edited by *astrisk*; 01-10-2013 at 04:33 PM.

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  5. #204
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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So let me get this straight. A player averages 13pts & 4rebs per game. In the offseason,. those stats get him a 3yr/10.5M contract.

    So that means a player that averages 8pts 3rebs and 3assists will get contract worth 6M per year.


    Yeah, using Green to make your point is a really good piece of evidence......
    No, I was referring to George Hill...

  6. #205
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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tuts Tomb View Post
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    I don't know about forcing our hand; I could have gotten Roy the same contract Falk did. It basically boiled down to "Hey Roy, don't lose both legs in a freak tractor accident in the next 8 months and someone will give you a max deal."

    If we would have started from a max contract position, when Roy was still "restricted", I think Falk would have found a way to get it done. He knew the offer from the Pacers was below market. Can't blame the Pacers for trying to get him cheaper. Can't blame Falk for holding out for ... WHAT HE ACTUALLY GOT.

    Roy was always getting a max contract. Everybody except some people in messageboardland knew that.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  7. #206

    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    I know there's very very little chance but... Anyway we offer West an extension before the summer? Actually before some smart *** corrects me. Any chance West signs an extension before this summer?

    Everyone keeps telling me all the reasons he should stay, so if that's the case why wait. Sign now.
    If games are won and lost on a calculator and piece of paper, then why do we bother to play them?

    @LetsTalkPacers

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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by *astrisk* View Post
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    No, I was referring to George Hill...
    I was referring to Justyn, but you thanked the post anyways so either one of you are free to explain the logic of how 13&4 gets a player 3.5 per and how 8&3&3 works out to 6 per.

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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I don't understand that take at all. I want to keep all 3, but to me it's pretty obvious that from a purely basketball stand point if you're going to cut one loose it is Danny.
    I think its a choice between Danny and Paul.

    It sure as heck isn't West. We're back to a 0.500 team without him. Who else can score in the fourth quarter. Paul George is making rapid improvment, as is Lance, but I don't think anybody is ready to hand the ball over to them in the fourth quarter.

    If its a choice between Danny and Paul, I'd at least like to know if Danny can fully come back from this injury and be an all-star caliber player again. If he does, I think you keep the all-star. But I prefer proven performance over potential. I know I'm in the minority around here, but I can live with that.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  10. #209

    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    I can't imagine there being any choice at all. I respect most all PD opinions, but anyone who would keep Danny over Paul is not so smart.
    If games are won and lost on a calculator and piece of paper, then why do we bother to play them?

    @LetsTalkPacers

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  12. #210
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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by *astrisk* View Post
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    We all said that when George Hill got 8 Mil per...

    No we didn't. Toss the stats out. George Hill had just been promoted to starting PG from a combo guard (which has a way of doing funny things to a player's stats.)

    $8M for your starting PG seems reasonable.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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  14. #211
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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Comparing Lance to Hill shows a pretty big misunderstanding in what the two players have accomplished so far. Even before that "just a combo guard" got to the Pacers he was an integral piece of a contending San Antonio team and had been since he was drafted.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
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  16. #212

    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Lance will get 5 mil from someone. If Im wrong feel free to call me out this summer, but every bone in my body says 5 mil min. With that said Id offer 4.5-5 max, and only because as a fan I love him.
    If games are won and lost on a calculator and piece of paper, then why do we bother to play them?

    @LetsTalkPacers

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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I must've been unclear. Replacing Danny with Lance is a sign they're starting over. Might as well go young across the board. No need to keep West if your starting wings are Paul and Lance. Not much reason to keep Hibbert or Hll either. Blow it up.

    In other words, Hill + Danny + David + Roy is much >>>>>> than Hill + Lance + David + Roy, and will be over the next three years or so. You're replacing an all-star with a sixth-man who is looking like an okay starter in a pinch (and that's a lot of progress from where he was the past two years, I'm not trying to insult him.) Might as well go young.

    I'd rather keep Danny. But I'm not a fan of youth movements. Its cagey veterans like West, Hill, and Granger that win close games, not young high-flying wings.

    Sorry if I was unclear.
    And let me reiterate my point...
    (I am not suggesting that they(DG and PG) can't play together. I am suggesting that because of PG's ability to play both 2 or 3, that we have the luxury to choose between keeping either Lance or Danny. IF NEED BE!

    I am all for keeping Danny if he will take 6-7 Mil and be the 6th man!!! That would be great! But, if I had to choose between the 2, at this point in their careers (to keep West). I want Lance going forward. )

    My scenario has us banking on Lance's continued progression through next season as our 6th man and then putting the ball back in Danny's court after next year. It has us overpaying Lance by about 2 mil, so we can keep a title core happy and together for 2 years. Once Lance is under contract to us after this summer he can play whatever role we want him to for the next 4-5 years. Starter, 6th Man, ALL-STAR... He is the insurance policy on Danny's knee with tremendous (Tony Parker) upside.

  18. #214
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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    No we didn't. Toss the stats out. George Hill had just been promoted to starting PG from a combo guard (which has a way of doing funny things to a player's stats.)

    $8M for your starting PG seems reasonable.
    And 6 Mil for your starting SG is dirt cheap. I had Lance as the starting SG after next season.

  19. #215
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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by LetsTalkPacers84 View Post
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    Lance will get 5 mil from someone. If Im wrong feel free to call me out this summer, but every bone in my body says 5 mil min. With that said Id offer 4.5-5 max, and only because as a fan I love him.
    We need to pay Lance whatever it takes! We need to keep pg and Lance together going forward. We will have 2 perennial all stars. I'm so excited for our future!
    David "And One" West

  20. #216
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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by *astrisk* View Post
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    And let me reiterate my point...
    (I am not suggesting that they(DG and PG) can't play together. I am suggesting that because of PG's ability to play both 2 or 3, that we have the luxury to choose between keeping either Lance or Danny. IF NEED BE!

    I am all for keeping Danny if he will take 6-7 Mil and be the 6th man!!! That would be great! But, if I had to choose between the 2, at this point in their careers (to keep West). I want Lance going forward. )

    My scenario has us banking on Lance's continued progression through next season as our 6th man and then putting the ball back in Danny's court after next year. It has us overpaying Lance by about 2 mil, so we can keep a title core happy and together for 2 years. Once Lance is under contract to us after this summer he can play whatever role we want him to for the next 4-5 years. Starter, 6th Man, ALL-STAR... He is the insurance policy on Danny's knee with tremendous (Tony Parker) upside.

    I think I get it. You'd take Lance and Paul over Paul and Danny.

    I wouldn't.

    If I can only afford to keep two of the three, I'm keeping Paul and Danny.

    Now, I would move the hypothetically healthy Granger for the hypothetically healthy Gordon in a heartbeat. And there's no way that Lance is in the picture long term if that happens. The hypothetically healthy George and Gordon would each be getting 38 minutes or so, so you'd only need one more wing in your rotation at 20 mpg. That should be a guy on a rookie contract.

    But you only move Danny to get an upper-tier SG, and that doesn't really give you cap relief it just lets you keep using Paul at SF (where I think he belongs)... I'm not opposed to trading Danny but I don't see how trading Danny solves any salary cap problems because his replacement is going to be an expensive SG -- and hopefully one that can create his own shot in the 4Q so that we've got three options - Hill, West, and SG-TBD.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  21. #217
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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I think I get it. You'd take Lance and Paul over Paul and Danny.

    I wouldn't.

    If I can only afford to keep two of the three, I'm keeping Paul and Danny.

    Now, I would move the hypothetically healthy Granger for the hypothetically healthy Gordon in a heartbeat. And there's no way that Lance is in the picture long term if that happens. The hypothetically healthy George and Gordon would each be getting 38 minutes or so, so you'd only need one more wing in your rotation at 20 mpg. That should be a guy on a rookie contract.

    But you only move Danny to get an upper-tier SG, and that doesn't really give you cap relief it just lets you keep using Paul at SF (where I think he belongs)... I'm not opposed to trading Danny but I don't see how trading Danny solves any salary cap problems because his replacement is going to be an expensive SG -- and hopefully one that can create his own shot in the 4Q so that we've got three options - Hill, West, and SG-TBD.
    Without question you keep Lance over Danny. Granger's best days are behind him and Lance is just getting started. Once Stephenson reaches his prime, he will be better than prime Danny
    David "And One" West

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  23. #218
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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by *astrisk* View Post
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    And 6 Mil for your starting SG is dirt cheap. I had Lance as the starting SG after next season.
    And I'm telling you that is no longer a contender. IMO.

    Teams will start scouting him (Lance) at some point this season. They barely scouted Paul George in the past, and he was a 2-year starter and high draft pick.

    Assuming that we see a healthy Danny Granger this season, I'm expecting this team to make a substantial improvement at that time when Lance is allowed to be in a sixth-man role and our starting lineup improves because Danny is back.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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  25. #219
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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    Without question you keep Lance over Danny. Granger's best days are behind him and Lance is just getting started. Once Stephenson reaches his prime, he will be better than prime Danny
    Okay. I don't buy that at all, but you're entitled to that opinion.

    But can I ask a favor? Its hard to take anything seriously when there is a George McCloud avatar staring at me. Can you please make him go away?

    (I'm kidding...)
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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  27. #220
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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by *astrisk* View Post
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    And 6 Mil for your starting SG is dirt cheap. I had Lance as the starting SG after next season.
    And 6 Mil for your starting SG that isn't even averaging double figures--NOR is giving you elite one-on-one defense is silly.

    Anything over 4.5 Mil for Lance is overpaying at this point. He's only been good for half of a season thus far within his career.

    Edit: and I really like Lance.

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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    If Danny comes back and these 5 plus Ian, Lance and Green primarily go to the Finals with minimal help from Tyler and DJ then you 100% walk away from the $7m those 2 would save you, keep Orlando and Miles on rookie/minimum deals, resign West and save the "oh no Danny and Paul" discussion till you see if you are headed to another Finals run or not the following year......

    And if the team just doesn't win games or do well in the playoffs THEN you can think about letting West go and moving Danny. But this group HAS NOT FAILED TO KICK A** YET. Can we not cut bait until after they've underperformed this spring? This means you Chad Ford, non-believer.
    If it were anyone else, as much as you are posting, I would say you're throwing a lot of stuff against the wall to see what is going to stick. But man, from my perspective, you just keep nailing it and almost seem to be expressing my thoughts 90% of the time.

    Really, I don't know why I bother posting, because you seem to have me covered, and then some. Please keep posting as much as you are now, I am very much enjoying you viewpoints and the evidence you post to support your opinions.

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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    And 6 Mil for your starting SG that isn't even averaging double figures--NOR is giving you elite one-on-one defense is silly.

    Anything over 4.5 Mil for Lance is overpaying at this point. He's only been good for half of a season thus far within his career.

    Edit: and I really like Lance.
    What's scary is that Lance will only get better. Keep in mind that this is basically his rookie year, as he rarely played his first two seasons. In only half a season, he is already making a name for himself on the NBA level. If there was a 2010 re-draft, based on this season, Lance easily goes top 10.
    David "And One" West

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  33. #223

    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Just a quick glance at some guards who get around 4-7 mil. Not all but some:

    Wesley Matthews - $6,505,320 $6,875,480 $7,245,640

    Josh Childress - $6,500,000 $7,182,500 $7,317,500

    Francisco Garcia - $6,100,000 $6,400,000

    Jarrett Jack - $5,580,000

    Tyreke Evans - $5,251,824 $6,927,156

    Landry Fields - $5,000,000 $5,225,000 $8,500,000 <---What!?!

    Courtney Lee - $5,000,000 $5,225,000 $5,450,000 $5,675,000

    Louis Williams - $5,000,000 $5,225,000 $5,450,000

    Ramon Sessions - $5,000,000 $5,000,000

    Kyle Korver - $5,000,000

    Daniel Gibson - $4,792,332

    Brandon Rush - $4,000,000 $4,000,000

    Anthony Morrow - $4,000,000

    Depending on what you think is important in your guard, and how important chemistry is to you. I think you can really make a case for Lance getting 4-6mil. You can't sell to a players agent paying him less as a starter than you do your SG off the bench in Green unless he was a 6th man type player.

    Also why the hell is Landry getting 8 mil. Wow someone *****ed up!
    Last edited by LetsTalkPacers84; 01-10-2013 at 05:20 PM.
    If games are won and lost on a calculator and piece of paper, then why do we bother to play them?

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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Comparing Lance to Hill shows a pretty big misunderstanding in what the two players have accomplished so far. Even before that "just a combo guard" got to the Pacers he was an integral piece of a contending San Antonio team and had been since he was drafted.
    Ok. George Hill was a four year college player. Went to San Antonio and played 16 mpg as a rookie avg. 5 pts... Started 45 games as NBA soph. avg. 12 pts. 3 apg... Went back to bench and decreased his # each year, until this year..

    Why was he a piece of a contending team? Because Parker, Duncan and Ginobili were on it? George Hill has never been on a team that has ever been to a Conference Finals, let alone an NBA Finals.

    True. I am being a little fascetious about them not being a contender. But I just don't want to see us lowball Lance and then lose him.

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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Guys like Jamal Crawford and Lou Williams make less than 6M.

    Who really thinks that Lance is going to command more money than those two?

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