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Thread: Chad Ford Chat

  1. #176
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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Care to expand on that idea a little more? Is it because you feel Danny's presence/skills are more easily replaced than D.West?

    I'm probably a little biased because I'm a HUGE Danny fan, but I feel that David can be easier replaced.
    Trader Joe is exactly right. West is the heart and soul of our team this year. Also, he is completely healthy right now. We have already proven that Danny can be replaced, as, Lance has done it admirably. I love Danny,too. But from a business sense it makes no sense to keep Danny after next year in the same role he is currently in. Especially, if it means giving up West.

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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    I'd assume if we let West go, we would look to sign a replacement that was cheaper (Carl Landry anybody) but of course, if a player is cheaper, they are probably not as good. There's no way I'd want to see a starting lineup that included Tyler OR Ian barring injury.
    West is currently our top scorer on one of the worst offensive teams in the league. Do we really want to downgrade?

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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Staverman View Post
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    It only takes one offer to force a team's hand.


    Just ask Hibbert's agrent!!

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  5. #179
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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    6 million per for Lance right now? Wow...no. Love what Lance is doing for the team, but I think his next deal will be Jarrett Jack money tops and Jack just started getting 5 million. I think Lance will probably get a 3 year/12 million deal maybe from the P's maybe from someone else.
    No way I would give Lance $6 million per right now. The $6m was simply a projection based on the fact that he is 22 yrs old and has only truly been in the rotation for 35 games

    If you continue the progression he has made since last year for the rest of this year, this summer and after next season when his contract is up $6 m per is not a totally unreasonable possibility.

    Regardless if we keep anyone on the bench the fact remains if we resign Granger and West and max George we are paying are starters $60m per and
    I don't see that happening here.

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  7. #180

    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    Since our biggest needs was a backup center at the time, I'd think that's what he was drafted for.

    I agree. Bird drafted Plumjam not Walsh. Bird drafted Plumjam as a b/c Center to add to the team "he had built". Walsh later in the off season brought in Mahinmi, Green, and Augustin to strengthen the bench.

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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by *astrisk* View Post
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    Trader Joe is exactly right. West is the heart and soul of our team this year. Also, he is completely healthy right now. We have already proven that Danny can be replaced, as, Lance has done it admirably. I love Danny,too. But from a business sense it makes no sense to keep Danny after next year in the same role he is currently in. Especially, if it means giving up West.
    Idk that Lance has "replaced" Danny. We are at the bottom of the league in offense, and our need for another proven veteran scorer from the perimeter. We aren't going to consistently keep good to great teams under 90-95 points.

    I see your point, but whether we lose Granger or we lose West, they're going to have to be replaced with suitable talent that can offer some offensive punch.

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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Thingfish View Post
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    The ship that is sinking to... one of the best Pacer teams ever??
    Ever? lol

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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I just am a little scared to find out how much West's addition has actually meant to this Pacers group.
    I'm scared to find out how much we truly do need Granger in the playoffs. I think we can agree that West is one of our weakest links defensively. I will say he has been much better this year than last. But even though Granger had a terrible year last year, he was still the more effective scorer because of free throws and 3 pointers.

    Danny Granger
    Points per shot without West (2010/11): 1.287
    Points per shot with West(2011/12): 1.231

    David West
    Points per shot without Granger (2012/13): 1.166
    Points per shot with Granger (2011/12): 1.176

    So on an individual basis, Granger is stronger both offensively and defensively.

    Teamwise, we were incredibly efficient last season with both. And it's hard to say how much it helps our offense to have a consistent low post presence who has the awareness and willingness to move the ball. But as our young players grow we may not necessarily need West to be that rock. So even without a big man who's a post threat we can still grind it out.

    Oddly enough, as long as we have scoring from Hill and our wings we may actually be BETTER with a defensive PF next to Hibbert because we can play inside-out no matter who's on the floor. (I don't believe it, but it's possible.)

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  12. #184
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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by *astrisk* View Post
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    West is currently our top scorer on one of the worst offensive teams in the league. Do we really want to downgrade?
    Actually, George is now officially our top scorer. He's scored 586 and West is at 583 for the year, both at a rounded 16.7 ppg average

    Stephenson didn't replace Granger, George NEARLY replaced Granger's scoring and Stephenson is still over 4 points short of George's from last year.

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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    I think you guys need to look at the offensive ratings in the last month to realistically gauge where our offense measures up. I agree that at the start of the year we were one of the worst offenses. In the last 30 days I would say that we are average. With Danny we might have been 12th.

    Can we continue to grow offensively without Danny? I think we can. And if Hill had been healthy and either West or Roy hitting their shots, we would have faired better.

    I think the offense is going to grow as the season goes on. It will never be on par with the defense. That is our identity. It has been nice to see this defense start off good and just get better and better. That is with the chemistry of our opponents getting better.

    We do need another scorer. But I do not think it is the end of the road for the Pacers this year if Danny never comes back. Vogel makes adjustments and we have some real talent on this team.

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  16. #186

    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Far more likely Plumlee was drafted to replace Hansbrough than a guy who wasn't even on the team when we drafted Plumlee.

    I disagree, but that's not my reasoning for this post. You mentioned replacing Tyler. Do you know if the Pacers picked up Tyler's Qualifying Offer for next year? I know if a QO isn't picked up the team the player becomes a UFA. (Joe Alexander)

    If a team picks up a players QO, that QO goes against the cap. At the end of the year prior to the QO, can the team trade the player b4 they give him a new contract?
    IOW, can the Pacers trade Hansbro this off season w/o having to give him a new contract if they have p/u his QO?

    Any enlightenment on the workings of a QO would be highly appreciated by yourself or anyone else.

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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    I'm scared to find out how much we truly do need Granger in the playoffs. I think we can agree that West is one of our weakest links defensively. I will say he has been much better this year than last. But even though Granger had a terrible year last year, he was still the more effective scorer because of free throws and 3 pointers.

    Danny Granger
    Points per shot without West (2010/11): 1.287
    Points per shot with West(2011/12): 1.231

    David West
    Points per shot without Granger (2012/13): 1.166
    Points per shot with Granger (2011/12): 1.176

    So on an individual basis, Granger is stronger both offensively and defensively.

    Teamwise, we were incredibly efficient last season with both. And it's hard to say how much it helps our offense to have a consistent low post presence who has the awareness and willingness to move the ball. But as our young players grow we may not necessarily need West to be that rock. So even without a big man who's a post threat we can still grind it out.

    Oddly enough, as long as we have scoring from Hill and our wings we may actually be BETTER with a defensive PF next to Hibbert because we can play inside-out no matter who's on the floor. (I don't believe it, but it's possible.)
    So, could you not say that as the young players grow, Danny's leadership and scoring may not be as much needed?

  18. #188
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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    I think you guys need to look at the offensive ratings in the last month to realistically gauge where our offense measures up. I agree that at the start of the year we were one of the worst offenses. In the last 30 days I would say that we are average. With Danny we might have been 12th.

    Can we continue to grow offensively without Danny? I think we can. And if Hill had been healthy and either West or Roy hitting their shots, we would have faired better.

    I think the offense is going to grow as the season goes on. It will never be on par with the defense. That is our identity. It has been nice to see this defense start off good and just get better and better. That is with the chemistry of our opponents getting better.

    We do need another scorer. But I do not think it is the end of the road for the Pacers this year if Danny never comes back. Vogel makes adjustments and we have some real talent on this team.
    You could be right. But I look at games against Boston, MIA, MEM-- where we really struggle shooting and scoring the basketball, and I just do not think that's a recipe for success. Yes defense is our identity, I wholeheartedly agree, but if we truly want to be elite, 75, 77, and 83 pts against other really good teams is not a recipe for long term success, least in my opinion.

    I guess we'll see what happens when Danny comes back. None of us can make a correct assessment of who truly fits within our immediate future until Danny comes back and plays with the "new" PG, Lance, Hill, etc.

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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Oh, and last year the Pacers had a role playing combo guard who averaged < 10 ppg, < 3 apg, and did not have proven durability. And somebody gave the kid 8 Million a year... George Hill anyone?

    Lance is getting 6 Mil if he doesn't get extended until this summer...

    Edit...... And that was with George Hill being Restricted with no other offers on the table.
    Last edited by *astrisk*; 01-10-2013 at 01:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by *astrisk* View Post
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    So, could you not say that as the young players grow, Danny's leadership and scoring may not be as much needed?
    You definitely could. And my points per shot comparisons aren't perfect either since most our offense gains a lot of its bite from offensive rebounds, most of which come off of short or midrange shots. And a lot of Granger's advantage in that stat comes from 3 pointers. And I think West is a more reliable source of "easier" shots than Granger. But Granger is almost as big as West and can score from everywhere on the court to boot.

    And maybe Granger can't stay healthy this year and decides it for us? I don't know; but I think I prefer what Granger does for us over West. At the same time, I wouldn't be upset if they have to pick one and choose West.

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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by *astrisk* View Post
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    Oh, and last year the Pacers had a role playing combo guard who averaged < 10 ppg, < 3 apg, and did not have proven durability. And somebody gave the kid 8 Million a year... George Hill anyone?

    Lance is getting 6 Mil if he doesn't get extended until this summer...

    Edit...... And that was with George Hill being Restricted with no other offers on the table.
    Lance 6M per year? Me thinks someone has a screw loose.

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  23. #192

    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    If you say so, but only Hansbrough is likely to not be here next season.

    I really don't see Bird drafting Plumjam as a PF. He could have re-signed Lou for that, or gotten another player like Mahinmi. I don't doubt for a second Bird drafted Plumjam as a 5. Bird knew Hibbert was a FA as well looking for a big new contract, and Plumjam the Center might have to inherit Hibbert's job someday.

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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23 View Post
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    Lance 6M per year? Me thinks someone has a screw loose.
    not a screw loose. that seems a little unfair. More likely it should be called 'new toy syndrome.'

    I like Lance, I think he could and will be a pretty good player, but he hasn't replaced Danny Granger anywhere except on the lineup card.

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  26. #194

    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    No way lance gets 6 mil per. Absolutely no chance. 3 mil maybe

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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23 View Post
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    Lance 6M per year? Me thinks someone has a screw loose.
    We all said that when George Hill got 8 Mil per... What will you do when Lance outplays that 6 Mil, and then we can't keep him because we just paid West, have to give PG a MAX, overpaid Hibbert and Granger's knee doesn't allow him to play at the level he used too.

  28. #196

    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    So what makes you think Lance will get 6 million a year?

    CHECKBOOK DONNIE

    Sorry, I just had to say it.

    Hopefully, Walsh won't be around then. If Walsh gave Green 3 years at 3.5 mil with no team option years, what makes you think Lance won't get 6 mil? Lance is more productive now than Green, and should hopefully grow the rest of this season and next. Is there truly anyone who feels Green is better than Lance at the present time?

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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by *astrisk* View Post
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    We all said that when George Hill got 8 Mil per... What will you do when Lance outplays that 6 Mil, and then we can't keep him because we just paid West, have to give PG a MAX, overpaid Hibbert and Granger's knee doesn't allow him to play at the level he used too.
    I think the difference between George and Lance is that George Hill was a late first round pick who played in SA for a few years and always showed the ability to be a more than capable starter with Parker, or subbing for an injured Tony Parker. By the time he hit FA, he had 4 good years of solid play--all on successful playoff teams.

    Lance was a second round pick. He's had an above average run for about half of a season, on a below-average offensive team (though he's a part of an elite defensive team as well) He hasn't scored at an uber impressive rate, he hasn't shown that he is a one-on-one ELITE defender (just yet) he's just playing well in what is his first chance to be in a consistent rotation. Prior to this year, most people only knew Lance for being a HS superstar, and giving Bron the choke sign from the bench lol.

    The two examples are quite opposite in my opinion

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  32. #198
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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    I think the difference between George and Lance is that George Hill was a late first round pick who played in SA for a few years and always showed the ability to be a more than capable starter with Parker, or subbing for an injured Tony Parker. By the time he hit FA, he had 4 good years of solid play--all on successful playoff teams.

    Lance was a second round pick. He's had an above average run for about half of a season, on a below-average offensive team (though he's a part of an elite defensive team as well) He hasn't scored at an uber impressive rate, he hasn't shown that he is a one-on-one ELITE defender (just yet) he's just playing well in what is his first chance to be in a consistent rotation. Prior to this year, most people only knew Lance for being a HS superstar, and giving Bron the choke sign from the bench lol.

    The two examples are quite opposite in my opinion
    I agree with this and I will go just a little bit further.
    Some of you already know this, but Hill is getting to much per (IMO) and Lance is no where near Hill's talent, which ii why Lance shouldn't get more then 4 mil per and that is if he inclines and gets constistant. Personally, if he continues his play and Pacers offers him an extension of 4 years 12 mil., he will take it.
    .

    Frank Vogel says "Killer instinct, start strong, build a lead and then step on their throats."

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  34. #199
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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    If Danny comes back and these 5 plus Ian, Lance and Green primarily go to the Finals with minimal help from Tyler and DJ then you 100% walk away from the $7m those 2 would save you, keep Orlando and Miles on rookie/minimum deals, resign West and save the "oh no Danny and Paul" discussion till you see if you are headed to another Finals run or not the following year.

    If you put the money out for 8 guys that can go to the Finals then you are done "fixing" things. I think some fans have to get out of rebuild mode from 2 years ago. They resigned Hibbert and Hill because this was the 5 they want to go with. They could be forced to let go of West if the market demands it, but ultimately they need an 8-11m PF on the team so it might as well be West.

    What they don't need is two bigs on the bench both making 4m or a BU PG making 3m and barely contributing.

    Maybe Ian doesn't keep improving and live up to his deal, but if he does then we have a 3 man big rotation with some cheap player to do the emergency work. Ditto at SF with Green or someone making Green's money. Lance dips in at PG/wing as the 6th man.


    When it comes time to give Paul 14M you'll be able to evaluate Danny and perhaps offer 9-10m instead, or look to move him if it's headed that way.


    And if the team just doesn't win games or do well in the playoffs THEN you can think about letting West go and moving Danny. But this group HAS NOT FAILED TO KICK A** YET. Can we not cut bait until after they've underperformed this spring? This means you Chad Ford, non-believer.

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    Default Re: Chad Ford Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I don't understand that take at all. I want to keep all 3, but to me it's pretty obvious that from a purely basketball stand point if you're going to cut one loose it is Danny.
    Especially with Roy's offense. You need the post guy. West is slumping partly because of the massive attention he started drawing. You need an inside out game and a solid PnPop game, and West is giving you both.

    As my previous post states, I think you put all your money in the starting 5 and go with Ian, maybe Green, maybe Lance, rookies and scraps. If you decide you need something different than Green then you trade his deal, and if Lance gets paid too much then you walk away. DJ goes, Tyler goes. Then when you aren't playing Roy/West/Ian as your 2 bigs you have a guy like Pendy getting some spot minutes.

    So I'm happily keeping Danny, but if forced to choose then you keep West over DG due to Paul and Roy on offense.

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