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Thread: Pacers again boast one of the most effective 5 man units in the league

  1. #51
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers again boast one of the most effective 5 man units in the league

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Yeah, but the lineup with DC did that in a lot more minutes. The Hill lineup was more efficient in my memory.
    If they are sourcing 82games then we could just do the simple per minutes version for comparison.

    The key with Lance is that he is physically imposing as the SG/PG with the length as mentioned, can rebound well for his position (ditto Paul), and can get out and push the ball up if Hill isn't available on the change of possession (ie, out of position, already breaking ahead, etc). The evaluation of the Lance's impact on the starting group was pretty dead-on.


    However I disagree with Danny off the bench. Lance's creativity and ability to freelance, dribble attack, and call his own shot make him ideal as a 6th man type. Danny to me is a lot more of a key piece of a group than an individual style player. Lance has had to learn to be MORE of a team player, not less. Being left to his own or with just one other guy (ie, Ian or Tyler) to get something going suits Lance far more than it does Danny.

    And keep in mind that the return of Danny gives the team one more starter that can bleed into the bench minutes, as the Paul + 4 thing was mentioned. Now it can be Danny +4 some of the time too, and with Lance there all the time.

    Potentially you could have Lance - Paul - Green - Tyler - Ian, or DJ-Lance-Paul-Tyler-Ian...and then you could give Paul a breather sooner and let Danny come in and do the same thing on the back end, meaning that you go to those 4 + Paul for a bit and then switch it to those 4 + Danny (or West, Roy, Hill). Now you never have a group of 5 bench players on the floor at all.

    Danny is going to have a big impact on this roster, and in the way some of us suspected his being out probably has helped Paul and Lance by forcing them to step up and be more mature and dominant with their games.

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  3. #52
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    Default Re: Pacers again boast one of the most effective 5 man units in the league

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I think everybody needs to brace for at least a 10 game cold streak from Granger before he starts taking the pressure off PG.
    I think you will be surprised at the shape, cardio and shooting touch he returns with. He's not sitting gathering dust right now. It might only be 20 minutes at first but in some ways I think the focus on so much shooting practice is going to help him early on.

    If anything you might see a dip about 8-10 games in as the increased PT and defensive expectations start to catch up to him.

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    Default Re: Pacers again boast one of the most effective 5 man units in the league

    It's my opinion that part of Danny's rehab is already built in time for conditioning.

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  5. #54

    Default Re: Pacers again boast one of the most effective 5 man units in the league

    i highly doubt that
    If games are won and lost on a calculator and piece of paper, then why do we bother to play them?

    @LetsTalkPacers

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    Default Re: Pacers again boast one of the most effective 5 man units in the league

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I think everybody needs to brace for at least a 10 game cold streak from Granger before he starts taking the pressure off PG.
    I think everybody truly underestimates how important Lance's ball handling, vision, hustle, shooting, finishing ability and unselfish play have been to the starting line up. Sure PG has taken a step up, but those two are our future. I'd take Lance and PG for the future over Danny and PG for the future any day. Granger turns 30 in three months and has a big salary considering our team has almost been as effective this year as last year without him.

    I say we ease Granger back into the game with the bench. If Danny came off the bench he'd be the best one in the league. I've said that a lot about our players, but I'm truly starting to think Lance and PG are the better combo than Danny and PG, especially when Hill is the point. We need that extra ball handler in there. And with Lance he just gives you a dynamic Granger never can.

    What if Granger is never the same after the knee injury? I see him more as Chuck Person at this point than Reggie Miller. As in he did well but we have better options with the potential progression of the young guys.

    Still though I know that Granger will be handed his starting spot back and will be here for at least the rest of his contract, for good or for bad. I mean with the progression of George he really has become redundant because even though I championed George at SG, he is really a small forward. An interesting dilemma to say the least.

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    Default Re: Pacers again boast one of the most effective 5 man units in the league

    It's amazing how DJA went out and got 17/6 the 18/6 and his ability is questioned enough to take him out of the rotation to some of you. As I said and will keep saying Vogel needs to mix and match his rotations.

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    Default Re: Pacers again boast one of the most effective 5 man units in the league

    Quote Originally Posted by LetsTalkPacers84 View Post
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    i highly doubt that
    Why wouldn't you build time into rehab for conditioning? It makes sense to do it.

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    Default Re: Pacers again boast one of the most effective 5 man units in the league

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Why wouldn't you build time into rehab for conditioning? It makes sense to do it.
    Not only does it make sense to do it, it's needed to see how his knee reacts to the stress.

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  11. #59

    Default Re: Pacers again boast one of the most effective 5 man units in the league

    didnt say it didnt make sense. wait and see. when he comes back all you will here is talks about conditioning. just like amare

    if people think when he "comes back" he is good to go 30 minutes a night your wrong. you will see 10 - 15 minute games for a while.

    believe me im happy to be wrong here.
    If games are won and lost on a calculator and piece of paper, then why do we bother to play them?

    @LetsTalkPacers

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    Default Re: Pacers again boast one of the most effective 5 man units in the league

    There's "condition" and there's "game condition". There's a big difference between what you can do without actually participating in a full-out scrimmage or game and what you need to play 30+ minutes per night.

    That said, I expect Danny to be ready to play hard for the minutes he will get when he comes back. He'll tire by the end of them, but it will basically be like everyone is coming off of training camp, not like there's a complete lack of condition that has to start from scratch the day he hits the floor.
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    Default Re: Pacers again boast one of the most effective 5 man units in the league

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    I think you will be surprised at the shape, cardio and shooting touch he returns with. He's not sitting gathering dust right now. It might only be 20 minutes at first but in some ways I think the focus on so much shooting practice is going to help him early on.

    If anything you might see a dip about 8-10 games in as the increased PT and defensive expectations start to catch up to him.
    I am totally trying to lower my expectations with Granger.

    Remember that MDJr. had exactly the same injury that Granger has. He tried to rest his knee for a few months, ended up coming back... and couldn't go. They ultimately ended up excising the calcifications from his patellar tendon, and he was out for a long time.

    That is perhaps a potential outcome when he comes back.

    Totally praying that it's not. But to expect that we're going to see good ole Granger back is perhaps putting the cart before the horse.

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  16. #62
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    Default Re: Pacers again boast one of the most effective 5 man units in the league

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    My biggest complaint with Vogel, by a wide margin, is that he has never showed any real interest in how players fit with each other in certain lineups. It's always just been about, get the best 5 players, and start them, and bring the next best 5 off the bench. If Granger was healthy, and the playoffs started tomorrow, I'd hope Vogel would be willing to keep the current starting line-up intact, and convince Granger that he would be best utilized as a scorer off the bench. As I've made it plainly obvious, I seriously doubt that Granger would play the role of good soldier and accept this "demotion," but I also have doubts that Vogel would even be willing to ask him to do it.
    He has certainly relied on the "line" substitution method more than most of us want (though it has gotten noticeably better this season), but I think that is too strong a statement. He kept DC on the bench when everyone expected him to get his starting job back once he was healthy, because he saw how well GH worked with the starters. This year he stuck with Green as a Granger replacement for awhile but when he saw how well Lance worked with the starters he became a fixture in the lineup.

    Vogel has had his issues with substitutions but I think he's not getting enough credit for making adjustments, including those with an eye toward playing chemistry.

    It's all speculation, but I suspect that Granger above all wants to win. We've seen him give up offense in the past. Yes, coming off the bench is a big deal in terms of perception, even when a players gets starters minutes. I think if anyone could convince him it was good for the team, it would be Vogel. And I don't think he's afraid to ask.

    I'm not sold on the idea that it would be best for Danny to come off the bench. Of course, I'm also not sold on the idea that it's not. Figuring that out will be a good problem to have for our coaching staff. I just hope Granger comes back healthy enough for us to really test things out.
    Last edited by gummy; 01-09-2013 at 05:21 PM.
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  18. #63
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    Default Re: Pacers again boast one of the most effective 5 man units in the league

    Quote Originally Posted by docpaul View Post
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    I am totally trying to lower my expectations with Granger.

    Remember that MDJr. had exactly the same injury that Granger has. He tried to rest his knee for a few months, ended up coming back... and couldn't go. They ultimately ended up excising the calcifications from his patellar tendon, and he was out for a long time.

    Dunleavy had a bone spur in his knee. Granger has tendonosis. Different injuries.
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    Default Re: Pacers again boast one of the most effective 5 man units in the league

    Well they both had tendenosis, the difference from my limited understanding is that there is no guarantee will develop the calcification that ultimately is what kept Dunleavy out for a season.

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  20. #65
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers again boast one of the most effective 5 man units in the league

    Danny definitely has to play off the bench when he comes back only because it'll take a while for him to get back in game shape. Few would argue this.

    However, the idea that a healthy Danny would make this team better coming off the bench versus playing with the starters is absolutely ridiculous.

    Plain and simple, talent wins in this league. So you try to put as much talent as possible on your teams and this will result in the most wins. Danny needs to be on the court as much as possible, simply because he is at least currently, our best player.
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    Default Re: Pacers again boast one of the most effective 5 man units in the league

    Once Danny gets back, we'll have so much more balance in scoring and even better defense
    Smothered Chicken!

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    Default Re: Pacers again boast one of the most effective 5 man units in the league

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Danny definitely has to play off the bench when he comes back only because it'll take a while for him to get back in game shape. Few would argue this.

    However, the idea that a healthy Danny would make this team better coming off the bench versus playing with the starters is absolutely ridiculous.

    Plain and simple, talent wins in this league. So you try to put as much talent as possible on your teams and this will result in the most wins. Danny needs to be on the court as much as possible, simply because he is at least currently, our best player.
    The Spurs say hello, or are you saying Ginobli is the most overrated player in the league?

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    Default Re: Pacers again boast one of the most effective 5 man units in the league

    I think it's possible we may all be in for a rude awakening when Danny returns.

    While Danny may be our best player, we have two similar players: Paul George and to an extent George Hill. However, Lance brings a dimension to the offense that none of those three brings. Remember against Miami last year when we couldn't make a pass into the post? That's changed. Remember when movement seemed so difficult? That's changed.

    Now, it might be that this is because Hill and PG have improved. Or it might be what Lance brings to the table. We'll see.

    I'm not saying Danny isn't a very good player, even our best. I'm saying when you have two hammers and a wrench, it may not be the best idea to replace the only wrench with a slightly bigger hammer.
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    Default Re: Pacers again boast one of the most effective 5 man units in the league

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Danny definitely has to play off the bench when he comes back only because it'll take a while for him to get back in game shape. Few would argue this.

    However, the idea that a healthy Danny would make this team better coming off the bench versus playing with the starters is absolutely ridiculous.

    Plain and simple, talent wins in this league. So you try to put as much talent as possible on your teams and this will result in the most wins. Danny needs to be on the court as much as possible, simply because he is at least currently, our best player.
    I'm trying to figure this out. If he isn't starting, he is no longer on the team? Or is it, that if he isn't starting, he can't play as many minutes as he would otherwise?

    No matter what you meant, neither of those statements are true. He could come off the bench and play 47 minutes.

    Also, how can he currently be our best player, if we have a player now who is playing better than Danny ever has in his entire career?

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    Default Re: Pacers again boast one of the most effective 5 man units in the league

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    I have a strong suspicion that he would never go for it, but it might be worth trying Granger off the bench. He relished the role of lone option on a bad team before, now he can be the lone option in a bad lineup, on a good team.
    I mentioned that a couple of weeks ago. Can't see it happening but would Granger coming off the bench and closing out games be that bad? A 'Manu' role and I firmly believe it can work. Won't harm us if we tried it at least when Danny comes back. This line up works a treat right now so why mess with it?
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    Default Re: Pacers again boast one of the most effective 5 man units in the league

    The starting lineup has proven they can beat anybody. When Danny comes back, you bench Green, and Granger replaces him on the second unit
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    Default Re: Pacers again boast one of the most effective 5 man units in the league

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    The starting lineup has proven they can beat anybody. When Danny comes back, you bench Green, and Granger replaces him on the second unit
    The starting lineup last season proved they could beat as well. Only now West, PG, and Hill are all playing better than last year and Granger is better than Stephenson.
    Last edited by aamcguy; 01-09-2013 at 10:22 AM.

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    Default Re: Pacers again boast one of the most effective 5 man units in the league

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    The Spurs say hello, or are you saying Ginobli is the most overrated player in the league?
    Nope, but again comparing Ginobili and Danny to each other is just silly IMO. Manu is a ball dominant guy who makes a lot of his own plays, Danny is more about getting in a groove which is my biggest concern. I see the logic behind wanting Danny off the ebnch, really I do, but I just don't know, to me doesn't Lance seem more like a guy who can be a microwave player than Danny?

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  33. #74

    Default Re: Pacers again boast one of the most effective 5 man units in the league

    IMO, it will be more a matter of which option is easier on Danny. He may need to start the game and see how well the knee will let him play ater he warms up. If he is coming off the bench after warming up then sitting for 6-10 minutes, he may need to stay on a bike like Foster did. He may have problems with warming up, cooling down then coming into the game without the warm up. Personally, I would love to see him coming off the bench at both the 3 and 4. Guarding 4s may be easier for him for a while, playing the 4 with Roy should unclog the middle more. He may well prefer coming off the bench in order to not disrupt the rythm of the starters. Danny is and always has been a team first player.

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    Default Re: Pacers again boast one of the most effective 5 man units in the league

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    The starting lineup has proven they can beat anybody. When Danny comes back, you bench Green, and Granger replaces him on the second unit
    Green is on the second unit, they bench Stephenson
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