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Thread: Pacers/Bucks Postgame Thread 1/5/13

  1. #76

    Default Re: Pacers/Bucks Postgame Thread 1/5/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    I'll take that bet on that it won't happen. Lance might want to, but West won't have any part of it.



    Every game that we play the more and more I think it might be smarter to bring Granger off the bench. The first unit has a good mixture to start the game, then a few minutes into the game you bring in Granger and you get a second boost.
    But our starting unit offense could really use a jump shooter.

    I don't understand why people continue to believe that George and Granger are incompatible, when George could desperately use another jump shooter so that defenses can't key on him.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bucks Postgame Thread 1/5/13

    The only real question about putting Paul and Danny together long term is this: Is George more effective and impactful when he's guarding SF's and being guarded by SF's, or is he more effective and impactful when he's guarding SG's and being guarded by SG's? Yes, those positions can be very similar, but there is a difference, and it's a question I would like to know the answer to. Danny's return, assuming he mostly resembles his old self, should go a long way in finally answering this question now that George appears to have come out of his cocoon.

  4. #78

    Default Re: Pacers/Bucks Postgame Thread 1/5/13

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    The only real question about putting Paul and Danny together long term is this: Is George more effective and impactful when he's guarding SF's and being guarded by SF's, or is he more effective and impactful when he's guarding SG's and being guarded by SG's? Yes, those positions can be very similar, but there is a difference, and it's a question I would like to know the answer to. Danny's return, assuming he mostly resembles his old self, should go a long way in finally answering this question now that George appears to have come out of his cocoon.
    One of those questions doesn't matter. Paul George is going to defend the best perimeter player on the court. On paper, he should have an advantage at the 2, but you never know until it's played.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bucks Postgame Thread 1/5/13

    Quote Originally Posted by MAStamper View Post
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    The only real question about putting Paul and Danny together long term is this: Is George more effective and impactful when he's guarding SF's and being guarded by SF's, or is he more effective and impactful when he's guarding SG's and being guarded by SG's? Yes, those positions can be very similar, but there is a difference, and it's a question I would like to know the answer to. Danny's return, assuming he mostly resembles his old self, should go a long way in finally answering this question now that George appears to have come out of his cocoon.
    Let's just hope Paul doesn't have to face a lot of guys running off screens.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bucks Postgame Thread 1/5/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    The thing with Plumjam is he's a project with no experience. Mozgov has been in the league 3-4 years. Walsh when at NY originally signed him.

    Mahinmi doesn't have the bulk Mozgov has, but Mahinmi is quicker.

    It would take a trade, and I'm not sure the Pacers have a bench player/players Denver would want. Green's salary fits for those that want to get rid of Green. I had orginally thought about a trade using Pendergraph, but he only makes half of Mozgov's salary.

    I'll be a Pacers homer and suggest a Green and DJ trade for Mozgov and Miller trade. I'd throw in a 2nd as a sweetner.
    So, you're suggesting that we play both Ian and Mozgov as the b/us? I don't that we want to commit so many bucks on the b/u Center position.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Bucks Postgame Thread 1/5/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    One of those questions doesn't matter. Paul George is going to defend the best perimeter player on the court. On paper, he should have an advantage at the 2, but you never know until it's played.
    Well, if the other team has two reasonably-close-in-talent wings, then he's going to be guarding the smaller of the two with Granger next to him, so I think it does still matter. Clearly he's better defending his man straight up versus having to chase a guy around screens, and generally speaking SG's tend to do that more than SF's do.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bucks Postgame Thread 1/5/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    But our starting unit offense could really use a jump shooter.

    I don't understand why people continue to believe that George and Granger are incompatible, when George could desperately use another jump shooter so that defenses can't key on him.
    My thoughts on that have nothing to do with whether or not they can coexist, because they can, although I do believe it is in the teams best interest for one of them to always be on the court. If a great SF and SG couldn't co-exist the Bulls wouldn't have had a dynasty in the 90's and the Heat wouldn't have won the championship last year. For me it is all a strategic issue, that really comes down to if it is better to bring Granger off the bench or Lance. I think you have to take a serious look at bringing Granger off the bench as he will bring veteran leadership, intensity, and scoring to the bench, not to mention he would still be getting starting minutes so a lot of his time will come with the starters and he could still play with the starters at the most crucial times. I am not going to say it would be better to bring him off the bench instead of Lance until there is some actual evidence one way or the other, but I don't think it would be a bad idea.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bucks Postgame Thread 1/5/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    I think you have to take a serious look at bringing Granger off the bench as he will bring veteran leadership, intensity, and scoring to the bench, not to mention he would still be getting starting minutes so a lot of his time will come with the starters and he could still play with the starters at the most crucial times.
    Agreed. You are not forced to start your best starting 5. The Thunder did this with Harden in his last two seasons there and now they're doing it with Martin. Martin and Harden both played more minute than Sefolosha but Thabo was the starter because he fit better with the starting unit.

    Martin and Harden are great as the scoring punch of the bench. I could certainly see Granger prospering coming off the bench and still playing starter minutes.
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  12. #84

    Default Re: Pacers/Bucks Postgame Thread 1/5/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Agreed. You are not forced to start your best starting 5. The Thunder did this with Harden in his last two seasons there and now they're doing it with Martin. Martin and Harden both played more minute than Sefolosha but Thabo was the starter because he fit better with the starting unit.

    Martin and Harden are great as the scoring punch of the bench. I could certainly see Granger prospering coming off the bench and still playing starter minutes.
    The problem is that I'm not sure our starting lineup's offense is good enough to be playing games like that.

    Granger would be a help off the bench and in the starting lineup. Because he's Danny Granger.

    I'm also hoping that when Danny gets back, we can run a 3 guard rotation with Lance/Hill/George. I'm not a fan of Lance at PG, but I'm really not a fan of DJ playing so I'm willing to try that experiment. Kind of hard to do when you start Lance.

    I also think Roy and West likely need a 3 point shooter out there.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bucks Postgame Thread 1/5/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    But our starting unit offense could really use a jump shooter.

    I don't understand why people continue to believe that George and Granger are incompatible, when George could desperately use another jump shooter so that defenses can't key on him.
    No kidding. I'm so jacked up on the idea of adding Danny to this mix that I can't stand it.

    Paul George is being asked to guard WHOEVER IS HOT, period. Not just SFs. When Ellis got going in the 3rd Vogel tried to have both Lance and Green slow him down with no luck. So what happened next? He put Paul on him and shut that s*** down. This happens all the time and maybe people just don't catch it. But PG is the assigned stopper, especially with Young off the team now.

    Danny will just guard whoever is left over.

    Maybe at the start of a game they will begin by defending "their position", but not once Vogel sees where things are going.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bucks Postgame Thread 1/5/13

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23 View Post
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    Exactly. But quite frankly, as a featured part of the offense, Hibbert's efficiency and FG% are very disappointing. So, from my perspective at least, his means of getting points tonight is exactly what he should be doing. Using him only when he is wide open and having him crash the boards for put backs will yield a much better efficiency and FG%.

    He needs to do whatever will cause our opponent to have to pay more attention to him, thus further enabling West, George and Hill, and Granger upon his return. Crashing the boards seems like a great way of getting that accomplished. He won't be as successful every game as he was this game, but again, anything that draws more attention from the opposition will yield great results for the team.
    Totally agree, and this was something that was missing the night before in Boston. Despite massive focus on West/Paul Roy was unable to pick up scraps or really force Boston to deal with him in any way.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bucks Postgame Thread 1/5/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    No kidding. I'm so jacked up on the idea of adding Danny to this mix that I can't stand it.

    Paul George is being asked to guard WHOEVER IS HOT, period. Not just SFs. When Ellis got going in the 3rd Vogel tried to have both Lance and Green slow him down with no luck. So what happened next? He put Paul on him and shut that s*** down. This happens all the time and maybe people just don't catch it. But PG is the assigned stopper, especially with Young off the team now.

    Danny will just guard whoever is left over.

    Maybe at the start of a game they will begin by defending "their position", but not once Vogel sees where things are going.
    And Vogel went away from that last year. I think Vogel is improving in the majority of his faults. I had the line change subs, but he has made adjustments else where.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bucks Postgame Thread 1/5/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    And Vogel went away from that last year. I think Vogel is improving in the majority of his faults. I had the line change subs, but he has made adjustments else where.
    I definitely agree there. This topic died out a month or so ago, the idea that Vogel was on the hot seat. He was certainly my pre-season "key player" coming into this season and I thought a majority of the success or failure was on his shoulders and on his ability to improve as a coach.

    I see that improvement, I see those adjustments. Not everything is a winner but the guy explores ideas and doesn't settle for just playing it safe. I mean he kept looking for the Danny solution at the start of the season, working different guys into the lineup. He's adjusted defensive assignments. He's made massive offensive structure adjustments even if he would downplay it to the press. For example, they work Roy early still but they learned to get away from it quickly and get to Hill/West PnR action if Roy was struggling. He's mixed up going all bench at the same time with trying to have different starters work longer shifts to keep at least 1 starter out there to be an offensive focus at all times (most nights at least).

    People have been uptight about a couple of games where Tyler got hot and West returned while in a slump, but this is after 20+ games reinforcing how critical West was and how unreliable Tyler was. That's not something you just instantly ignore because a guy made a couple of jumpers. Not to mention defensive awareness and rotation mistakes that fans often overlook or are unaware of. Heck, just the fact that West draws attention makes him more important to getting other players going than Tyler hitting some jumpers does.

    I'm a huge Carlisle fan, specifically because of the brilliant offensive playbook adjustments during the 98-2000 era. I see Vogel developing that kind of intelligence for the game. Maybe this has as much to do with the staff as Frank, but ultimately he's the guy making the calls and taking that advice so he's at least smart enough to listen if he isn't inventing it himself.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bucks Postgame Thread 1/5/13

    Vogel uses the assets he has around him. I think that is why Shaw is so willing to stay when he has had at least 2 teams that expressed interest in him. I think he still uses Green and a slumping West because of attention defenses have to give them. Defenders have to keep Green in front of them or he will be in the top plays on ESPN. Vogel is running plays for Green, he simply is not hitting. But the attention given to him does free up pressure for Tyler to hit those jumpers or penetration or baseline 3s.

    I have no problem taking the hot player out for the known commodity. But I understand the contention in the same breath.

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  21. #90

    Default Re: Pacers/Bucks Postgame Thread 1/5/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    So, you're suggesting that we play both Ian and Mozgov as the b/us? I don't that we want to commit so many bucks on the b/u Center position.


    Don't confine your thoughts to this season only, think ahead to next season.

    If the Pacers don't re-sign DWest this off season, then Mahinmi and Hansbrough are your PF. Mozgov b/u 5. Mozgov's 3 mil is nothing compared to what DWest could have been paid.

    If Dwest is signed and Tyler isn't a Pacer next year, then Mahinmi is the b/u PF. Mozgov b/u 5. Tyler's salary becomes Mozgov's salary next season.

    In both scenario's Mozgov covers the b/u 5 at a 3 mil salary.

    PLumjam can be brought along slowly, so that it wouldn't be necessary to re-sign Mozgov for the 14-15 season as Plumjam can cover the b/u 5.

    You bring in Mozgov this season as b/u insurance to a possible injury to Hibbert, or this coming off season for the foresaid reasons. If Mozgov is secured, it would apt to be this off season. I doubt it ever happens, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings if it did. He's never going to beat out McGee for the b/u 5 spot, so Denver can afford to trade him. I'd just as soon see him in a Pacers uni than a competing team's uni. JMOAA

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bucks Postgame Thread 1/5/13

    When Granger comes back, let's move Stephenson to the second unit and see what happens when we FREE LANCE.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bucks Postgame Thread 1/5/13

    I just really want people to relax on Lance and let it be. If you want him to be freed, who gets less burn? Is it that simple as to FREE them. It seems like more people want Lance to be freed than for the Pacers to win.

    Rant off/

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bucks Postgame Thread 1/5/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    I just really want people to relax on Lance and let it be. If you want him to be freed, who gets less burn? Is it that simple as to FREE them. It seems like more people want Lance to be freed than for the Pacers to win.

    Rant off/
    What if Lance being freed leads to a lot more Pacer wins?

    P.S. Gerald Green, DJ and Ben get less burn, and Young gets a LOT less burn.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Bucks Postgame Thread 1/5/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    I just really want people to relax on Lance and let it be. If you want him to be freed, who gets less burn? Is it that simple as to FREE them. It seems like more people want Lance to be freed than for the Pacers to win.

    Rant off/
    While I have been decidedly unimpressed with Lance's "breakout" season, especially compared to the rest of the board, and think the idea of "freeing" him is more terrifying than exciting, Gerald Green getting less burn doesn't sound like a bad thing.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Bucks Postgame Thread 1/5/13

    I don't get the Lance love. I see a good bench player and considering where they drafted him and where he's come in his career I'm pretty happy with that.

    But the idea that he's about to be the top player out there? I don't see anything close to that. I think right now he's playing within 10-20% of his max level. He can get a little more consistent, tighten up some TOs or general slop, maybe dial in his jumper for a tiny bit more reliability and that's about it.

    His fancier dribble attack moves often unfold a bit too slow for all the flash they show and end up coming to nothing. He's a great 2nd round pick and should continue to be a Travis Best level impact on the team going forward. Overall I can see him having more impact than Green has been, but as Beast mentions Green has a set of skills that really demands some amount of attention, and if he could get his jumper going again he'd crush people that closed out on him too hard.

    I like Lance's size, physicality and rebounding. But I also notice the impact of Green's hops both in rebounding and in defending the goal. He gets up and challenges people in both areas which results in tougher shots or rebounds kept alive for the Pacers to potentially grab, even if he isn't getting the block or rebound himself.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bucks Postgame Thread 1/5/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    I don't get the Lance love. I see a good bench player and considering where they drafted him and where he's come in his career I'm pretty happy with that.

    But the idea that he's about to be the top player out there? I don't see anything close to that. I think right now he's playing within 10-20% of his max level. He can get a little more consistent, tighten up some TOs or general slop, maybe dial in his jumper for a tiny bit more reliability and that's about it.

    His fancier dribble attack moves often unfold a bit too slow for all the flash they show and end up coming to nothing. He's a great 2nd round pick and should continue to be a Travis Best level impact on the team going forward. Overall I can see him having more impact than Green has been, but as Beast mentions Green has a set of skills that really demands some amount of attention, and if he could get his jumper going again he'd crush people that closed out on him too hard.

    I like Lance's size, physicality and rebounding. But I also notice the impact of Green's hops both in rebounding and in defending the goal. He gets up and challenges people in both areas which results in tougher shots or rebounds kept alive for the Pacers to potentially grab, even if he isn't getting the block or rebound himself.
    I agree. I think Lance has the type of game that some find fun to watch, and he looks like he has a ton of talent, I'm just not sure how much of it is functional. Lance has improved as a player because he has shot the ball better. A simple fundamental improvement. He's also learning how to function within an offense. He's doing what he needs to do to deserve time on the court. But the idea that he's going to be our second best player at some point, I just really don't see it.

    As someone who has been harsh on Lance, I don't want this to sound like a "bashing" post. He's impressed me this season. I didn't think he'd be capable of playing as well as he has. And he's impressed me by staying out of trouble. (more important) He's been a good role player. There's just disagreement over whether he'll be much better than that or not.

    That said, he has been, by far the best of the non Hill/George at the guard position. Green and DJ have been somewhere between pretty bad and abysmal for a majority of the season. Reducing their minutes isn't the worst thing in the world. And with Lance playing pretty decent, its an easy decision.
    Last edited by Sookie; 01-07-2013 at 04:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bucks Postgame Thread 1/5/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    I don't get the Lance love. I see a good bench player and considering where they drafted him and where he's come in his career I'm pretty happy with that.

    But the idea that he's about to be the top player out there? I don't see anything close to that. I think right now he's playing within 10-20% of his max level. He can get a little more consistent, tighten up some TOs or general slop, maybe dial in his jumper for a tiny bit more reliability and that's about it.
    Come on, Nap, that's just not reasonable. I agree that he's not going to be the top player out there; I'm fine with that. But the idea that he's 90% of the player he's going to be? You really think he's that close to being a finished product right now? Heck, he's still improving game-by-game. You don't think he's going to improve more in the next offseason?
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    Default Re: Pacers/Bucks Postgame Thread 1/5/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    The problem is that I'm not sure our starting lineup's offense is good enough to be playing games like that.

    Granger would be a help off the bench and in the starting lineup. Because he's Danny Granger.

    I'm also hoping that when Danny gets back, we can run a 3 guard rotation with Lance/Hill/George. I'm not a fan of Lance at PG, but I'm really not a fan of DJ playing so I'm willing to try that experiment. Kind of hard to do when you start Lance.

    I also think Roy and West likely need a 3 point shooter out there.
    Yeah, Roy and West need a 3 point shooter, I agree. And I also agree that our starting line up's offense is not good enough. So, you're probably right
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    Default Re: Pacers/Bucks Postgame Thread 1/5/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    I don't get the Lance love. I see a good bench player and considering where they drafted him and where he's come in his career I'm pretty happy with that.

    But the idea that he's about to be the top player out there? I don't see anything close to that. I think right now he's playing within 10-20% of his max level. He can get a little more consistent, tighten up some TOs or general slop, maybe dial in his jumper for a tiny bit more reliability and that's about it.

    His fancier dribble attack moves often unfold a bit too slow for all the flash they show and end up coming to nothing. He's a great 2nd round pick and should continue to be a Travis Best level impact on the team going forward. Overall I can see him having more impact than Green has been, but as Beast mentions Green has a set of skills that really demands some amount of attention, and if he could get his jumper going again he'd crush people that closed out on him too hard.

    I like Lance's size, physicality and rebounding. But I also notice the impact of Green's hops both in rebounding and in defending the goal. He gets up and challenges people in both areas which results in tougher shots or rebounds kept alive for the Pacers to potentially grab, even if he isn't getting the block or rebound himself.
    I liked Green's dunk against the Cavs, but for all that athleticism, he's not much better than Flight White. He can shoot a little, but otherwise he really has no idea how to play basketball. Yes he jumps and gets up around the rim, but ask the man to pass the ball or run a play and you are out of luck. His defense on Paul Pierce was comical. Nothin' there.

    OTOH, Lance Stephenson has more natural basketball ability in his pinky at the age of 22 as Gerald Green is ever going to have in his entire body. As others have mentioned, Lance has been improving game by game. Gerald is already in Lance's rear view mirror.

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  38. #100
    All Hail CJ Watson! Nuntius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers/Bucks Postgame Thread 1/5/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Don't confine your thoughts to this season only, think ahead to next season.

    If the Pacers don't re-sign DWest this off season, then Mahinmi and Hansbrough are your PF. Mozgov b/u 5. Mozgov's 3 mil is nothing compared to what DWest could have been paid.

    If Dwest is signed and Tyler isn't a Pacer next year, then Mahinmi is the b/u PF. Mozgov b/u 5. Tyler's salary becomes Mozgov's salary next season.

    In both scenario's Mozgov covers the b/u 5 at a 3 mil salary.

    PLumjam can be brought along slowly, so that it wouldn't be necessary to re-sign Mozgov for the 14-15 season as Plumjam can cover the b/u 5.

    You bring in Mozgov this season as b/u insurance to a possible injury to Hibbert, or this coming off season for the foresaid reasons. If Mozgov is secured, it would apt to be this off season. I doubt it ever happens, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings if it did. He's never going to beat out McGee for the b/u 5 spot, so Denver can afford to trade him. I'd just as soon see him in a Pacers uni than a competing team's uni. JMOAA
    Hmm, I never really thought this through. I can certainly agree with this line of thinking.

    But he's expiring this season. If we bring him in, we'll probably have to pay him if we want to keep him.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

    Panopticon

    -------------

    CJ Watson - 20 points on 6/10 shooting!

    13/4/2014

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