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Thread: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    You can't throw a point guard out there who just desperately wants to run an offense with guys who are pretty much incapable of running an offense. (Young does nothing on offense, Tyler doesn't have a clue what he's doing on offense, Green is not a "score within the flow of the offense" kind of guy. Ian's probably the only one you can do anything with.)
    And Ian is likely not to catch the ball.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Theodore View Post
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    Lance Stephenson may be the most entertaining Pacer since Ron Artest. His circus shots during games are a coaches worst nightmare, but as a fan I have mixed emotions. The dunk miss was terrible, his rucker park half spin reverse layup attempt was actually very creative and it was unfortunate the finish was just not there. Regardless, Lance is entertaining.
    Lance is one hot streak away from taking over the game and grabbing the limelight from the entire crowd.

    Vogel may be working hard not to "free Lance" due to all the dynamics that would arise from such outbursts. Great fun? Yes. Complicated. I would think.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Trust me I want to see Granger along side of George just as much as anyone else. This team is showing they can compete and be a good team without him, if we are going to have a money problem in the future with signing George and some of the others because of the cap then why not get younger in the process. I fear we are going to lose lance right at the time he finally REALLY breaks out. He will never be the player granger is but we are going to have a HUGE gaping hole at PF here very soon. Why not use our chips and get the best player possible to play along side George for the next 5 years.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Why does everyone think we will lose David West? Think back over the last 7 or 8 years how many times did you read pacers trying to trade for David West, Donnie had been after him since he was drafted, he is playing well for us and losing him would take a LOT out of this team. (how many fewer wins would we have this year without David?)

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by pathil275 View Post
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    Ugly win. Here's the thing: more often than not, even against bad teams, we need an outstanding performance from one or two guys to make up for the rest of the team. This time it was Paul George (again).

    It gets frustrating if the second unit is out there and a double digit lead slips away.

    I do like our defensive identity, that's for sure. We came a long way when I recall the JOB time.
    That is the case for every team. You run your offense and when your hot player or hot matchup comes up you go to it more often than you normally would. It's not a negative that we have to have them to win; it's a positive that we are able to get them when we need them.

    Ask yourself: How often does Miami win if they don't get a big game from 2 of a particular 3 players? The Thunder? Spurs? New York? Milwaukee? Brooklyn? The Clippers?

    We don't have a superstar, but the front office has been putting a team together where at least 1 or 2 of our guys are talented enough to go off for 20+ each and every night.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Paul George is the first guy we've had maybe ever in the NBA that just makes you go whoa with some of the athletic plays he makes. Even how high he gets for rebounds is silly.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by kester99 View Post
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    On a semi-irrelevant note....what happened to the drummers? Am I going deaf and blind in some strange percussion instruments only way? Or did BLF nix them?
    They're still there. They are in front of Area 55.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Paul George is the first guy we've had maybe ever in the NBA that just makes you go whoa with some of the athletic plays he makes. Even how high he gets for rebounds is silly.
    Bender?

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by billbradley View Post
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    Bender?
    Fred Jones as well. And Gerald Green now definitely, though PG was still before him ofc

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Bender, Fred Jones, Gerald Green, all of these guys lacked Paul George's body control which is a huge part of athleticism.

    Watch Paul covering from paint to the 3 point line and back on D in about 3 steps. It's amazing.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Bender, Fred Jones, Gerald Green, all of these guys lacked Paul George's body control which is a huge part of athleticism.

    Watch Paul covering from paint to the 3 point line and back on D in about 3 steps. It's amazing.
    But he's not nearly as strong with the ball as Fred was and obviously Green is a ridiculous jumper. He's incredibly athletic yes, and he's a much better player than any of the others mentioned have ever been. But if you're talking strict athletic ability, I don't think you can put him above some of our other guys definitively.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Bender, Fred Jones, Gerald Green, all of these guys lacked Paul George's body control which is a huge part of athleticism.

    Watch Paul covering from paint to the 3 point line and back on D in about 3 steps. It's amazing.
    I agree with you. Body control is something that people really underrate when it comes to athleticism. It's the reason I've always considered George to have a very high ceiling. People that smooth on the court are hard to come by.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Bender, Fred Jones, Gerald Green, all of these guys lacked Paul George's body control which is a huge part of athleticism.

    Watch Paul covering from paint to the 3 point line and back on D in about 3 steps. It's amazing.
    Agreed. I use to love watching Darnell back in the ABAdays (don't those two words used together conjure up a fond memory). Darnell could get just as high, who knows maybe even higher. But Darnell himself would tell you that he wasn't even close to having George's overall athleticism.

    George does recover extremely well on the strong side of the court. I look forward to similar improvements, focus and the overall ability to anticipate plays being swung to the weak side of the floor.

    For those that haven't figured it out, I can now proclaim that George has won me over. Giving him even more credit, he has "earned" me over. I've seen enough games to know that his performance is not an aberration and it is not a "trend up"', it is his new norm of play.

    But for those who think that Granger's presence stifles George's play, you couldn't be more wrong. Together on the court, they will only provide significantly more opportunities for each other. They will each get more open looks and they will each have more opportunities to drive the ball. West and Hibbert will probably each have more room and time with the ball. And Hill... he's just salivating knowing that he will have many easier options with the ball and players that might be a little "more open" with better scoring opportunities.

    With Granger, this will become one hell of an offensive team, not just a team capable of stopping its opponent from scoring. Now, if our starting five plus Lance and Mahinmi could be able to consume all 240 player-minutes of a game, oh what a world that would be (for a Pacers fan anyway)
    Last edited by beast23; 01-03-2013 at 12:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    But he's not nearly as strong with the ball as Fred was and obviously Green is a ridiculous jumper. He's incredibly athletic yes, and he's a much better player than any of the others mentioned have ever been. But if you're talking strict athletic ability, I don't think you can put him above some of our other guys definitively.

    Sorry to me it's not even comparable.

    Just look at him and Green next to each other on the court, Green is a gifted leaper, but everywhere else Paul is a far superior athlete, much quicker, faster in the open court, better coordination, more balanced as he attacks both offensively and defensively, Paul rarely gets caught where he is leaning too much, yes part of this is anticipation, another huge part is the ability to maintain your balance on the move, which is part of being an athlete.

    Fred Jones is a great dunker, but in a pretty much every other way he was an average NBA athlete.

    Bender is probably the closest of the 3, but even then he just missed....something.

    Don't get so caught up in dunks, there is a lot more to NBA athleticism than dunks. The closest guy to Paul in terms of raw athletic talent is probably Artest.

    Paul's overall athletic package is pretty crazy, about the only place he ranks below average is in terms of strength and even then he's kind of shown me some sneaky wiry strength that I didn't really know he had. I never really thought he would put it all together like he is, because honestly how many of them usually do and because I was already pretty happy with 14 PPG, 6 RPG, 2 APG, best defender on the court Paul George, but I'm certainly not going to say no to 20 PPG, 9 RPG, 4 APG, and still best defender on the court Paul George.
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 01-03-2013 at 12:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Don't get so caught up in dunks, there is a lot more to NBA athleticism than dunks. The closest guy to Paul in terms of raw athletic talent is probably Artest.
    Artest was a great athlete. Jamison Brewer was also a fantastic athlete, he just wasn't any good. Don Buse is probably another I could mention with the others.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23 View Post
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    But for those who think that Granger's presence stifles George's play, you couldn't be more wrong. Together on the court, they will only provide significantly more opportunities for each other. They will each get more open looks and they will each have more opportunities to drive the ball. West and Hibbert will probably each have more room and time with the ball. And Hill... he's just salivating knowing that he will have many easier options with the ball and players that might be a little "more open" with better scoring opportunities.

    With Granger, this will become one hell of an offensive team, not just a team capable of stopping its opponent from scoring. Now, if our starting five plus Lance and Mahinmi could be able to consume all 240 player-minutes of a game, oh what a world that would be (for a Pacers fan anyway)
    The effectiveness of this year's offense is predicated on their ball movement and off-the-ball movement. I understand that one can simply look at this from the perspective of adding a very solid scorer to the equation that we have now and that it would make a huge difference....but the only concern that I have with Granger's eventual return is whether the Starting Lineup will revert back to their old habit of simply standing there and watching Granger when he gets the ball.

    I know that last season it was decided that Granger would take less less FGAs in favor of "spreading the wealth" ( and therefore offensive focus from himself ) among the rest of the Starters, but I still recall a tendency by the rest of the Team to simply "stop and stare" when Granger got the ball in late game situations.

    I'm not saying that Granger can't adjust....but after PGs recent emergence and GH/DWs increased role on the offensive end, I am more inclined to say that I'm really hope that he and the rest of the Team does adjust to their new roles since there isn't a great need for Granger to lead the Team in scoring or to be "the Man" when it comes to getting a critical point at the end of a game. If anything, I think that GH and DW are more "clutch" when it comes to scoring late in the game.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    I'm not saying that Granger can't adjust....but after PGs recent emergence and GH/DWs increased role on the offensive end, I am more inclined to say that I'm really hope that he and the rest of the Team does adjust to their new roles since there isn't a great need for Granger to lead the Team in scoring or to be "the Man" when it comes to getting a critical point at the end of a game. If anything, I think that GH and DW are more "clutch" when it comes to scoring late in the game.
    I think this almost goes without saying. Granger will not jump right back in and play 36 minutes per game. And he's not going to immediately "totally engage". He has attended games and certainly realizes that other members of the team can and will continue tp provide ample scoring. If anything, I believe Granger will have a somewhat reduced role in the offense through the remainder of the season, allowing others to continue to shine. So I cannot fathom the other four guys standing around and just watching Granger.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Paul's overall athletic package is pretty crazy, about the only place he ranks below average is in terms of strength and even then he's kind of shown me some sneaky wiry strength that I didn't really know he had. I never really thought he would put it all together like he is, because honestly how many of them usually do and because I was already pretty happy with 14 PPG, 6 RPG, 2 APG, best defender on the court Paul George, but I'm certainly not going to say no to 20 PPG, 9 RPG, 4 APG, and still best defender on the court Paul George.
    The crazy thing to me, is watching him last night it was still pretty clear he can improve a ton.

    Defensively for example...wait until he figures out how to guard players running off of screens. (Because right now for him, Rudy Gay is an easy cover, while Ray Allen causes all sorts of issues)...or when he knows what he's going to do with the ball before he moves, or when he does get a little bit stronger..or when he "cleans up his game" so the turnovers decrease, or when he works on footwork...watching him last night, I really was stunned by how good he is..and yet how he still looks raw.

    One thing he's improved on tremendously, is his movement without the ball. He's actually good at it now.

    PG always had a better chance than most talented guys to be great...his athleticism, his shooting ability, his height ect..but he also always had a brain and work ethic. The only thing that seemed to hold him back a bit was his aggression, but I don't even mind that because now he's turned into a guy who usually knows when he should pass or when he should shoot.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Sorry to me it's not even comparable.

    Just look at him and Green next to each other on the court, Green is a gifted leaper, but everywhere else Paul is a far superior athlete, much quicker, faster in the open court, better coordination, more balanced as he attacks both offensively and defensively, Paul rarely gets caught where he is leaning too much, yes part of this is anticipation, another huge part is the ability to maintain your balance on the move, which is part of being an athlete.

    Fred Jones is a great dunker, but in a pretty much every other way he was an average NBA athlete.

    Bender is probably the closest of the 3, but even then he just missed....something.

    Don't get so caught up in dunks, there is a lot more to NBA athleticism than dunks. The closest guy to Paul in terms of raw athletic talent is probably Artest.

    Paul's overall athletic package is pretty crazy, about the only place he ranks below average is in terms of strength and even then he's kind of shown me some sneaky wiry strength that I didn't really know he had. I never really thought he would put it all together like he is, because honestly how many of them usually do and because I was already pretty happy with 14 PPG, 6 RPG, 2 APG, best defender on the court Paul George, but I'm certainly not going to say no to 20 PPG, 9 RPG, 4 APG, and still best defender on the court Paul George.
    I think you seem to be giving credit to his athleticism that should really be going to his long arms and legs. And just because the guys I named are good dunkers doesn't mean I was choosing them because they're good dunkers. Paul George is as good a dunker as any of them. He is a better basketball player to them, but in my opinion it's because he is more skilled.

    Either way, there's no reason to demean the other guys just so your blanket statement has more merit. You didn't say he was the best athlete, you said he was the first incredible athlete the Pacers have had in the NBA. Which isn't true.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Danny is not expendable. Without him, our offense blows. We're 28th in the league. That offense will not get it done against the top teams.

    If we want to go deep in the playoffs, we need Danny.

    Lance and PG will be a great tandem in the future. I believe that Lance's offensive game will grow. I believe that PG can improve even more.

    But for the time being, we need Danny.
    I was just getting back to some game archiving from DVR to hard drive and was reviewing some of the playoff footage. That quickly ramped up my excitement for Danny's return. He's not quite what Paul is, especially now, but he's a similar level talent in general. Playoffs are going to be 38-40 minutes of starters, and if that group of 5 is Hill, Paul, DG, West and Roy then they are going to be a severe problem for other teams and that includes Miami, just as it did last year.




    I don't think Augustin looks dramatically smarter on the court it just looks like he's getting some benefit from the more talented starters being there to help clean things up, fix spacing, etc. Defensively he's still a non participant.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    I was just getting back to some game archiving from DVR to hard drive and was reviewing some of the playoff footage. That quickly ramped up my excitement for Danny's return. He's not quite what Paul is, especially now, but he's a similar level talent in general. Playoffs are going to be 38-40 minutes of starters, and if that group of 5 is Hill, Paul, DG, West and Roy then they are going to be a severe problem for other teams and that includes Miami, just as it did last year.




    I don't think Augustin looks dramatically smarter on the court it just looks like he's getting some benefit from the more talented starters being there to help clean things up, fix spacing, etc. Defensively he's still a non participant.
    How do you go straight off the DVR to an external hard drive? The only way i know how is streaming it off the DVR to my PC then on a hard drive which takes forever. If there is an easier way would like to know lol.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    I think you seem to be giving credit to his athleticism that should really be going to his long arms and legs. And just because the guys I named are good dunkers doesn't mean I was choosing them because they're good dunkers. Paul George is as good a dunker as any of them. He is a better basketball player to them, but in my opinion it's because he is more skilled.

    Either way, there's no reason to demean the other guys just so your blanket statement has more merit. You didn't say he was the best athlete, you said he was the first incredible athlete the Pacers have had in the NBA. Which isn't true.
    It's true to me, maybe it's not true to you, and that is fine, but I never really watched Fred Jones or Gerald Green play basketball and go wow. I watch their dunks and go wow, so it's just different definitions more than anything else. Paul is making it look easy, in a way I've only really seen one Pacer do it and that was Artest the first few games of a certain season in 2004

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Bender, Fred Jones, Gerald Green, all of these guys lacked Paul George's body control which is a huge part of athleticism.

    Watch Paul covering from paint to the 3 point line and back on D in about 3 steps. It's amazing.
    Bender had it. I saw a few games where the guy moved his body like a wing to grab the board, shot like Dirk and dunked like a beast. He had flashes of something I don't even know what/who to compare to.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by billbradley View Post
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    Bender had it. I saw a few games where the guy moved his body like a wing to grab the board, shot like Dirk and dunked like a beast. He had flashes of something I don't even know what/who to compare to.
    Agreed, Bender would sometimes show the really strong body control you need to be a superstar in the NBA. But it was always in such short bursts, like 2 minutes at a time.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Sorry to me it's not even comparable.

    Just look at him and Green next to each other on the court, Green is a gifted leaper, but everywhere else Paul is a far superior athlete, much quicker, faster in the open court, better coordination, more balanced as he attacks both offensively and defensively, Paul rarely gets caught where he is leaning too much, yes part of this is anticipation, another huge part is the ability to maintain your balance on the move, which is part of being an athlete.

    Fred Jones is a great dunker, but in a pretty much every other way he was an average NBA athlete.

    Bender is probably the closest of the 3, but even then he just missed....something.

    Don't get so caught up in dunks, there is a lot more to NBA athleticism than dunks. The closest guy to Paul in terms of raw athletic talent is probably Artest.

    Paul's overall athletic package is pretty crazy, about the only place he ranks below average is in terms of strength and even then he's kind of shown me some sneaky wiry strength that I didn't really know he had. I never really thought he would put it all together like he is, because honestly how many of them usually do and because I was already pretty happy with 14 PPG, 6 RPG, 2 APG, best defender on the court Paul George, but I'm certainly not going to say no to 20 PPG, 9 RPG, 4 APG, and still best defender on the court Paul George.
    I'm with TJ on this one completely. PG is a more total athletic package due to the quickness and control he pairs with his length and hops. I've noticed his improved bounce passes coming out of dribble attacks, right in rhythm with his dribble and almost nonchalant. His ability to stop and recover when guys try to dribble him back to clear space for the jumper. His power hops for challenged rebounds. He's just able to quickly and smoothly adjust and roam the court. Maybe because of this coming from a longer player some of the burst stuff looks less spectacular but he shows more diversity to his game than guys like Fred, Bender or Green.

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