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Thread: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

  1. #151

    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    Lets all take a step back can we please on Roy Hibbert.

    This is what Roys 5th season? This is a guy that dealt with Obrien for 3.5 years of his career and many know the negative impact that created with Danny. He went from a tough nosed player to primarily a 3 pt shooter and digressed from there. he is only now developing more into vintage Artest and not Peja.

    Many of us i think felt Obrien along with poor pg play and a lack of a structured offense all had to do with Roys lack of develpment to some degree.

    now he has the max contract and some will say that is the problem. i think primarily in perception fans expect more from a MAX player. imo Hibbert is worth 10M with the duration of his worth around 13 M prob by time it expires. he is not rediculously overpaid but the term Max implies it.

    i think intelligent pacer fans knew this was a possibility. Hibbert did not dominate the Magic last year with no D12.

    Hibbert is PAID for his D. I believe we will appreciate Hibbert more in the PLAYOFFS because thats when it becomes a half-court game. Hibbs expectations based on the playoffs and a max contract and all the swooning he rcd and i think he just hasnt found his niche. He will perform well in the PLAYOFFS. a big man like him will pay dividends defensively.

    i wonder if his physical regime has been changed and the extra weight is affecting his overall game. i think Hibbert will be fine but one issue i would really like the pacers to resolve is getting a BIGMAN coach. i really believe it would be worth the investment.

    for example, Hibbert wanted to shoot before a gaem he said and Vogel was the only guy he could get to work with him. Are the pacers that cheap they cannot get a big man coach or is there no one to be found.

    Get our max center a big man coach that can help him develop his game and serve as a mentor throughout the season. There has to be someone available that would be an ideal fit.

    Hibbert is overpaid by 4 mil. I believe that relates to being overpaid by 30%. I never felt Hibbert would be a 20/12 guy, but he's not even the player he was last year. His max contract he received was based off of Hibbert's last season accomplishments. Expecting the same stats after receiving a max contract isn't at all unreasonable. Unfortunately, Hibbert isn't producing those stats for the money, and people aren't happy after he got a max contract. If he was being paid 10 mil for what he's presently producing, people wouldn't be nearly as unhappy. Take that extra 4 mil savings, and the Pacers could have used it in better upgrading the bench.

    As far as getting Hibbert a BIG MAN coach, I have to laugh. Not b/c I don't agree with you, but Walsh never would b4, so why expect him to do it now? I pleaded for the FO to get a big man coach for David Harrison, Walsh in control. I asked for one when Hibbert was drafted, Walsh was in control. Plumblee could use a big man coach, Walsh in control. Checkbook Donnie will overpay to keep players, but won't pay for an on staff QUALITY big man coach. NEVER HAS NEVER WILL. Orlando got Ewing to work with Howard, Lakers got Jabbar to work with Bynum, etc.

    Under Bird, Walton worked with Hibbert a "few" weeks one off season. Another off season Hibbert on his own worked out with Duncan.

    I've never understood the philosophy of not spending to develop a big man. Yet, they retained Billy Keller to help players with shooting. Big men need more help developing their game than the rest of the players. Bottom line is Walsh isn't going to bring in a big man coach to help the bigs. Any help they get will be by coaches presently on staff or fellow big men like DWest.

    I felt Hill was overpaid, but at least Hill's game has improved to the point he's not blatantly overpaid like Hibbert. In the month of December, Hill shot 43% compared to 38% earlier in the season. Hill's elevating his game where as unfortunately Hibbert hasn't to the point his game has regressed. How can anyone be happy with Hibbert being given a max contract and with his play not feel he's overpaid? Like BEAST 23 said Hibbert needs to put on some big boy pants and grow a pair. Only he can improve his play and game. If all he can be is a single didgit scorer, do some rebounding, and play good "D", then he's WAY OVERPAID to the point of looking like an albatross contract for the future.

    STEP UP BIG MAN! Show us you are worth your max contract!

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Roy HAS to get a mean streak. He just has to, if he wants to really be a more consistent player, he blames himself, but instead he needs to project that energy out on the other team if that makes sense.

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  4. #153
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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    I think Jimmy and Roy are responsible for Roy's confidence issues.
    Roy had confidence issues in college, long before JOB came along. In fact, in his One-on-One with Mark Monteith (obligatory reference) interview, he talked about G'town using a two-pronged approach on him coaching-wise - the head coach would beat him up for failures while an assistant would help prop him up mentally. One of the biggest issues with how JOB treated him was that there was no Mike Brown or other assistant who took on the job of being Roy's prop.
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  5. #154
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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Hibbert is overpaid by 4 mil. I believe that relates to being overpaid by 30%. I never felt Hibbert would be a 20/12 guy.
    Marc Gasol is not a 20/12 guy. Is he overpaid?

    Tyson Chandler is not a 20/12 guy either. Is he overpaid? Wasn't he crucial on the Mavs championship run?

    I feel that sometimes people get too caught up in numbers and words such as "max" and fail to see the real value of a player.
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  7. #155
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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Hibbert is overpaid by 4 mil. I believe that relates to being overpaid by 30%. I never felt Hibbert would be a 20/12 guy, but he's not even the player he was last year. His max contract he received was based off of Hibbert's last season accomplishments. Expecting the same stats after receiving a max contract isn't at all unreasonable. Unfortunately, Hibbert isn't producing those stats for the money, and people aren't happy after he got a max contract. If he was being paid 10 mil for what he's presently producing, people wouldn't be nearly as unhappy. Take that extra 4 mil savings, and the Pacers could have used it in better upgrading the bench.

    As far as getting Hibbert a BIG MAN coach, I have to laugh. Not b/c I don't agree with you, but Walsh never would b4, so why expect him to do it now? I pleaded for the FO to get a big man coach for David Harrison, Walsh in control. I asked for one when Hibbert was drafted, Walsh was in control. Plumblee could use a big man coach, Walsh in control. Checkbook Donnie will overpay to keep players, but won't pay for an on staff QUALITY big man coach. NEVER HAS NEVER WILL. Orlando got Ewing to work with Howard, Lakers got Jabbar to work with Bynum, etc.

    Under Bird, Walton worked with Hibbert a "few" weeks one off season. Another off season Hibbert on his own worked out with Duncan.

    I've never understood the philosophy of not spending to develop a big man. Yet, they retained Billy Keller to help players with shooting. Big men need more help developing their game than the rest of the players. Bottom line is Walsh isn't going to bring in a big man coach to help the bigs. Any help they get will be by coaches presently on staff or fellow big men like DWest.

    I felt Hill was overpaid, but at least Hill's game has improved to the point he's not blatantly overpaid like Hibbert. In the month of December, Hill shot 43% compared to 38% earlier in the season. Hill's elevating his game where as unfortunately Hibbert hasn't to the point his game has regressed. How can anyone be happy with Hibbert being given a max contract and with his play not feel he's overpaid? Like BEAST 23 said Hibbert needs to put on some big boy pants and grow a pair. Only he can improve his play and game. If all he can be is a single didgit scorer, do some rebounding, and play good "D", then he's WAY OVERPAID to the point of looking like an albatross contract for the future.

    STEP UP BIG MAN! Show us you are worth your max contract!
    im not sure Hibbert will ever find that mean streak. early in his career i had hopes but now i expect him to always be a tip in guy and not a put back DUNK in your face player.

    im not blaming OBRIEN. i pointing out that throughout Hibbs career its been Obrien, lack of pg play, lack of structured offense.. so on. no more excuses. Hibbs needs to play like an All start center.

    regarding walsh, all those centers you mentioned have one key difference btw them and Hibbert. Hibbert is well paid. its totally nuts not investing in him with a big man coach.

    centers take longer to develop so im not ready to say Hibbert has reached his ceiling. problem is and i said it right after he got schooled by Duncan in SA to start the season and everyone freaked out.

    Hibbert is soft. nothing wrong with that. he will never have DWEST mean streak. he is more of a Smits type of guy.. but way more passionate.. just missing the killer instinct.

    god if i was 7'2 i would play like a total D*CK on the court. I think Hibbs has low bball IQ for a center. his footwork is terrible at times. his positioning is terrible at times.

    Barkely was 6'4 and played like he was 6'10. Hibbert is 7'2 and plays like he is 6'9. i have to attribute it to low-average bball iq.

    he needs a bigman coach to mentor him on the court and somewaht off the court during cold spells.

  8. #156
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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    i have to attribute it to low-average bball iq.
    I get what you are saying here, but I can't agree. Roy has smarts both on and off the court. But he is a congenital softy. He is the classic gentle giant. All his problems stem from this foundation.
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  10. #157

    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Marc Gasol is not a 20/12 guy. Is he overpaid?

    Tyson Chandler is not a 20/12 guy either. Is he overpaid? Wasn't he crucial on the Mavs championship run?

    I feel that sometimes people get too caught up in numbers and words such as "max" and fail to see the real value of a player.

    AGAIN, Hibbert got paid for what he accomplished last season. Compare that with this season, and yes he's OVERPAID.


    I'm glad you asked about Marc Gasol!! Early last season I stated Gasol was better than Hibbert, and I'd trade Hibbert for Gasol. You'd have thought I was a baby, puppy, and kitten killer by many for even suggesting such an outlandish thing.

    Gasol

    10-11 season
    11.7/7/2.5
    Gets max contract for those #'s.

    11-12 1st year of max contract
    14.6/ 9/ 4
    Please note the "increase in production" of 3 pts, 2 rebs, and 1.5 Ast per game after getting a max contract.

    12-13 season
    14.4/ 7.5/ 4 at 48% FG and 87% FT

    Throw in the fact Gasol is a tougher player and the answer to your question of is Gasol an overpaid player is an overwhelming NO!!! He's worth what he's being paid.


    Hibbert

    11-12 season
    12.8/8.8/1.7 at 49.7% FG and 71% FT.
    Stats Hibbert got MAX contract.

    12-13 1st year of MAX contract.
    9.6/8/1.7 at 40% FG and 64% FT.

    Down 3 pts in scoring, almost 1 rebound, almost 10% in FG%, and 7% in FT%. This doesn't shout MAX player, it shouts OVERPAID!

    Hibbert is not as strong physically or mentally as Gasol who deserves the MAX contract. Barkley a week or so ago on tv said Gasol was the 2nd best center in the NBA not Hibbert.


    Edit: The sad thing is that for Bird's 1st 2 years he scouted the Euro players, and in the 2007 draft Bird traded Orlando for the 39th pick and drafted Stanko instead of drafting Marc Gasol who was drafted at #48 by the Lakers.
    Last edited by Justin Tyme; 01-04-2013 at 03:10 PM.

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  12. #158
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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Walsh DID have a big man coach under Isaiah Thomas. It's not the GM who's choosing whether we have a big man coach, it's the head coach who chooses his assistants.

    O'Brien didn't want a big man coach, and Vogel hasn't pursued one either. That's on Vogel, not Donnie.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Jim O'Brien is not an incurable disease, he's just a dude that coached here for several really unsuccessful years, he's not part of Roy's issues anymore, whatever they are. And if he is part of Roy's issues still, well then we have a HUGE problem
    When I was young, a friend made a terrible error in judgement. He recklessly drove a car and his best friend was killed. The deceased boy's mother spoke in my friend's behalf at his sentencing for manslaughter. She forgave him and spoke some of the most powerful words that I have ever heard spoken.

    The woman, who was also like a second mother to my friend, told him "Scars are an indication of where you've been. Lee, you mustn't allow them to be a limitation on where you are going."

    I think the same thing holds true for Hibbert. He is well beyond the scars inflicted by his former coach. What he does with his career is totally on himself and no one else.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Walsh DID have a big man coach under Isaiah Thomas. It's not the GM who's choosing whether we have a big man coach, it's the head coach who chooses his assistants.

    O'Brien didn't want a big man coach, and Vogel hasn't pursued one either. That's on Vogel, not Donnie.
    That is a cop out. The FO can easily tell Vogel that they want to bring in a big man coach if they wanted to.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Walsh DID have a big man coach under Isaiah Thomas. It's not the GM who's choosing whether we have a big man coach, it's the head coach who chooses his assistants.

    O'Brien didn't want a big man coach, and Vogel hasn't pursued one either. That's on Vogel, not Donnie.

    Who was this "big name quality" big man coach?

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Who was this "big name quality" big man coach?
    I don't think he used the term you have in quotes there.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    The whole idea of "big man coach" has always bothered me. Correct me if I am wrong, but a big man coach has to be an ex-NBA player who was a "big man" OK, but then why don't teams hire a point guard coach, or a shooting guard coach.....you get more point. Why can't Frank Vogel coach Roy as well as he coaches George Hill. I mean do we need Bill Walton to coach Roy, but Frank is fine to coach George Hill.

    I mean is the center position that specialized that only a very select few can proplerly coach the position.

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  21. #164
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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Why do people always talk about needing a big man coach but never a point guard coach, or a shooting guard coach, or a wing coach? That is what gets me. I think the idea of a big man coach is vastly overrated.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    The whole idea of "big man coach" has always bothered me. Correct me if I am wrong, but a big man coach has to be an ex-NBA player who was a "big man" OK, but then why don't teams hire a point guard coach, or a shooting guard coach.....you get more point. Why can't Frank Vogel coach Roy as well as he coaches George Hill. I mean do we need Bill Walton to coach Roy, but Frank is fine to coach George Hill.

    I mean is the center position that specialized that only a very select few can proplerly coach the position.
    I don't know Vogel's playing history, but to be honest I don't understand why the NBA doesn't have specialized coaches like football because yes there are a lot of nuances that you might not pick up on if you didn't actually play the position. I certainly wouldn't trust an ex-Center to be good at coaching a Point Guard.

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  24. #166
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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    The whole idea of "big man coach" has always bothered me. Correct me if I am wrong, but a big man coach has to be an ex-NBA player who was a "big man" OK, but then why don't teams hire a point guard coach, or a shooting guard coach.....you get more point. Why can't Frank Vogel coach Roy as well as he coaches George Hill. I mean do we need Bill Walton to coach Roy, but Frank is fine to coach George Hill.

    I mean is the center position that specialized that only a very select few can proplerly coach the position.
    And why does Roy need a coach to tell him how to do things he used to be able to do, like hit free throws?

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by TinManJoshua View Post
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    I don't think he used the term you have in quotes there.

    That's why I put it in quotes. Notice I mentioned Jabbar and Ewing when I stated BIG MAN coach for Bynum and Howard. I think in terms of those types as BIG MAN coaches, not a Clifford Lee, etc. Hakeem would be another one I'd put in the QUALITY BIG MAN coach category. When Duncan retires he'd be another one.

    I could be wrong, but I feel someone who has had a successful career as a big man knows more about the ins and outs of how to play the position than an ast coach who wasn't a big man player or a journeyman big man. JMO

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    I think folks are too hung up on dollars. I don't think expectations should be based on the dollars Hibbert has been paid. They should be based on a reasonable continuance or improvement of previous performance, as well as what is needed from him in respective of how he is being utilized and in conjunction with who he is on the floor with and how they are being used. Does my garbled wordiness make sense?

    My issue with Hibbert is that he has proclaimed that he wants to be the best defender in the league and has done an excellent job of pursuing that goal, yet is underperforming as an offensive player with respect to the role he has within the offense and his previous performance.

    It is possible that my issue should be with Vogel because he has not given Hibbert an offensive role more in alignment with his talents. But based on last year's performance, I have discounted this. But, if plays are going to be run for a starting center in the NBA to the tune of 10 shots per game, then regardless of his salary, it is a reasonable expectation that his production be well above 9 points per game. I haven't bothered to look it up, but I would think that an efficient production for a starting center should be perhaps 1.2 to 1.3 points per shot. That would be 12-13 points for Hibbert.

    If that is not possible then I believe that his role within the offense should be decreased because we can get better production elsewhere. In that instance, I would probably expect more out of Hibbert in the areas of rebounding and offensive screening.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Who was this "big name quality" big man coach?
    Quote Originally Posted by TinManJoshua View Post
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    I don't think he used the term you have in quotes there.
    Yep, Josh is right.

    But the coach in question was Mark Aguirre.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    That is a cop out. The FO can easily tell Vogel that they want to bring in a big man coach if they wanted to.
    No reason to, so far. Roy has showed improvement the last few season. If I was Walsh, and I started working with Vogel this past offseason, I'd have said "Just keep doing what you're doing; it seems to be working." And they're not going to hire a big man coach mid-season.

    If it's like this all year, then something clearly needs to change. But I don't fault the FO (or Vogel) for not going out and hiring a big man coach this past summer.
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  31. #171
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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I mean is the center position that specialized that only a very select few can properly coach the position.
    The head coach is coaching the team as a whole, and assistants work with individual players. Vogel's not the question here, it would be whether Dan Burke or Jim Boylen are effective at coaching big men. I don't know that they are, I don't know that they're not. I have no information either way. But it's not a question of Vogel himself, which you know very well, Buck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Why do people always talk about needing a big man coach but never a point guard coach, or a shooting guard coach, or a wing coach? That is what gets me.
    We do have a wing coach. His name is Brian Shaw.
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  32. #172

    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    The Hibbert/Gasol comparison is comedy. Looking at the numbers for this season it's not even close both offensively and defensively.

    Roy's averaging 28.5 mpg. Next to his anemic offense, that has to be the most disappointing part of Roy's game. Tough deal when your highest paid player can't give you 30+ minutes.

  33. #173
    Member aamcguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    The Hibbert/Gasol comparison is comedy. Looking at the numbers for this season it's not even close both offensively and defensively.

    Roy's averaging 28.5 mpg. Next to his anemic offense, that has to be the most disappointing part of Roy's game. Tough deal when your highest paid player can't give you 30+ minutes.
    Offensively, yes. Defensively, no.

    Click on me!

    They have similar defensive ratings, similar defensive rebounding percentages, similar stealing %. But Roy has a much higher block %, offensive rebounding %, and despite his offensive ineptitude doesn't have a terrible PER comparted to Gasol. They both anchor high quality defenses, but the Pacers do it by forcing a low FG% while the Grizzlies do it by creating a lot of turnovers.

    Gasol is a good defender, but this season Hibbert has been a phenomenal defender.

  34. #174
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    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Sorry if I'm wrong but I thought Boylen was brought in to be the big man coach...

    And it seems to me that a lot of people here are glossing over Roy's wrist injury as a major part of his offensive woes this season... I don't know if that is because they missed that news (it was hardly discussed on here) or if people aren't understanding of the true impact that playing with a "stump" could have on Roy's hook shot... Which was a deadly weapon last year...

    But right before that info came out there was a good Eight Points Nine Seconds article posted at the beginning of a few game threads that spoke to the issue of Roy rushing his shots and passes more this season than last which could definitely be another contributing factor...
    Last edited by J7F; 01-04-2013 at 06:50 PM.
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  36. #175

    Default Re: Pacers/Wizards Postgame Thread 1/2/13

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    Offensively, yes. Defensively, no.
    Hibbert's been good playing help D, but he's getting outplayed by his own man most nights. check out this site and compare them... http://www.mysynergysports.com/?lid=corpSite

    Gasol's better at defending his man, and Hibbert's a better rim protector. They're probably a wash on the defensive end honestly, but when you factor in Gasol's able to play 7 more minutes than Hibs, I'd have to give him the edge.

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