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Thread: Pacers/Jazz Postgame Thread 12/19/12

  1. #151
    Member Eleazar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers/Jazz Postgame Thread 12/19/12

    Quote Originally Posted by doctor-h View Post
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    He has said that a team will only survive if its fanbase will support them. He never has an explanation for why this fanbase does not support the pacers the way they could. There is a reason, I have my opinion what that reason is. What is his? I don't think he has one. I don' think you can explain what that reason is unless you have seen what the pacers were, what direction they took and where their headed now. They damaged their image somewhere along the line and they have been paying for it.
    They lost it with the trading for Stephen Jackson.


    I personally don't think they are doing what they could to get it back. They had a golden opportunity in the offseason. They preached to us for years that that would be the time their hands were no longer tied and they could really get things done.
    They? Who is they? Fans? The owners and management sure didn't say anything like that. The only people preaching about it were fans with no direct ties to anyone who makes decisions.

    They blew it big time and I am pissed at them for misleading everyone again.
    Not your fault you don't know the difference between a fan and Larry Bird.

    Now their hands are tied again and we are facing more years of mediocrity because of it.
    They didn't see mediocre last year, and I highly doubt that we wouldn't have a top 3 record in the East this year if Danny was playing.

    They like to use the excuse that nobody with a big name would want to come here. That is ******** and a defeatist attitude. I am sick of it. Thy don't tolerate it in other markets why should we here?
    Again, stop confusing fans with management.

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  3. #152

    Default Re: Pacers/Jazz Postgame Thread 12/19/12

    Quote Originally Posted by Cousy47 View Post
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    Even the teams like the Heat and and other top 10 teams have problems selling out the arenas to real people sitting in the seats. A lot of the attendance figures are based on corporate block buying. The corp. then gives the tickets to their employees or vendors. The seats are sold and paid for, but empty. IMO, if the Simons were not such Indpls. homers, the Pacers would have been gone to another city. Most of us Ind. fans are fickle, if we don't get what we percieve as Indiana Basketball, we don't watch or support it.
    Explain why corporate block ticket sales are not successful here. Could it possibly be that corporations feel they would not benefit from supporting the pacers. When a team gets no national attention and very little from its own local media, it might be a waste of money and time and in this economic time you can't waste money and time. Fans in every market have a feel for what kind of team they like to support why shouldn't Indiana fans. We love our basketball here, we play to win, we are not happy just to be a participant. When things go poorly in Boston, New York, LA and Chicago the fans don't stand for it. They expect championships not playoffs, that is exactly why they win more often than others. That is why players want to go there. They know they will have a chance to win.

  4. #153

    Default Re: Pacers/Jazz Postgame Thread 12/19/12

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    They lost it with the trading for Stephen Jackson. That is one reason, Artest, Tinsley and some others are other reasons. That is just to name a few.




    They? Who is they? Fans? The owners and management sure didn't say anything like that. The only people preaching about it were fans with no direct ties to anyone who makes decisions.

    Management absolutely said that on many occasions. That was a theme, we have no cap room, we are limited in what we can do, we will have cap room after last season and we will be able to add to the team. I don't have a clue where you have been.

    Not your fault you don't know the difference between a fan and Larry Bird.
    What?


    They didn't see mediocre last year, and I highly doubt that we wouldn't have a top 3 record in the East this year if Danny was playing.
    They had a good year last year, I am talking about continued progress in the offseason and this year.


    Again, stop confusing fans with management.
    Believe me, I know the difference between a fan and management and also of someone who has no idea what they are talking about.

  5. #154
    Member Eleazar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers/Jazz Postgame Thread 12/19/12

    Quote Originally Posted by doctor-h View Post
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    Believe me, I know the difference between a fan and management and also of someone who has no idea what they are talking about.
    Well if you can show where Bird, Simon, or whoever has said any of that I will stop talking.

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  7. #155

    Default Re: Pacers/Jazz Postgame Thread 12/19/12

    Quote Originally Posted by Kemo View Post
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    He watches the exact same games you do, so raise up off his sack with your nonsensical blatherskite ..
    Alot of people watch the same game and they see things differently. What does nonsensical blatherskite mean? You read this post and don't even understand it.

  8. #156
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers/Jazz Postgame Thread 12/19/12

    Season ticket sales were up this year, weren't they?

    Corporate block ticket sales are down in all markets except for those big enough to have only lost ground on their waiting lists.

    Even the Colts weren't certain they'd have enough ticket sales to avoid blackouts until nearly the end of the early ticket sales period, which has been unheard of here.

    While I agree a hyped player would help, we forget that it can take years to acquire such a player via the draft lottery and that the hype of such a player if brought in via trade or free agency would completely vanish once said player hit Indianapolis.

    The "mistakes" most often being discussed - not bringing in Brand or Scola, not completing any deal for OJ Mayo, not letting Hibbert walk in favor of Kaman - not a single one of those players would in and of themselves brought the Pacers huge numbers of ticket sales - heck, I completely discount the "home town hero" effect but I'd say Hill brought more sales on name recognition than any of those guys.

    That leaves going the Chicago route and not only being bad for 6 years but getting EXTREMELY lucky in the last year to jump from 10th to 1st in the draft - notice that the years they were actually WORSE they still didn't manage to get a hot player. All that with a fan base that more-or-less pre-funded a decade of being able to survive without selling tickets because they were coming off having one of the most hyped and marketed players in history.

    For all the comments that "well, we sucked anyway, why not take advantage of it by sucking more on purpose", there was still no guarantee that we'd have ended up any better draft-wise than we are right now. None. And with all that people hated the coach and style of play, at least no one could level the accusation that the fans who attended the games (or invested money in season tickets) were being cheated by having been sold a team that had no intention of doing anything but losing. Even the worst bumbler gets respect for trying.
    BillS

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  10. #157
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    Default Re: Pacers/Jazz Postgame Thread 12/19/12

    http://www.nba.com/2012/news/03/24/b....ap/index.html

    "We don't have a true superstar on this team, that go-to guy every night that we need," he said. "It would always be nice to have a superstar on your team, but we don't, so we have to share the wealth."

    The Pacers, still well under the salary cap, could be a player in free agency after this season. Bird believes that could provide an opportunity to truly get the team back to an elite level.

    "We're not even close to where I think we're going to go with this franchise," he said. "We've got a long way to go. We've got a core group of young players that are going to be pretty good, and we've brought in some guys I think are positive moves, but we're nowhere near where I think this franchise needs to be and where I want it to go."


    Sure sounds like someone looking to make a big move to me.

    http://tracking.si.com/2012/02/23/la...o-make-a-move/

    “We want to continue to get better, we want to continue to draft well and we’re still looking. We’ve got $15 million under the cap and I’m not afraid to make another move now to strengthen our bench or maybe even (add) one or two guys. We’re still out there looking and whatever we can do to make this team better, we’re going to do.”

    That don't sound like they were planning on spending more money on a scoreboard than the team itself, at least to me.
    Last edited by Taterhead; 12-21-2012 at 11:20 AM.

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  12. #158

    Default Re: Pacers/Jazz Postgame Thread 12/19/12

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Season ticket sales were up this year, weren't they?

    Corporate block ticket sales are down in all markets except for those big enough to have only lost ground on their waiting lists.

    Even the Colts weren't certain they'd have enough ticket sales to avoid blackouts until nearly the end of the early ticket sales period, which has been unheard of here.

    While I agree a hyped player would help, we forget that it can take years to acquire such a player via the draft lottery and that the hype of such a player if brought in via trade or free agency would completely vanish once said player hit Indianapolis.

    The "mistakes" most often being discussed - not bringing in Brand or Scola, not completing any deal for OJ Mayo, not letting Hibbert walk in favor of Kaman - not a single one of those players would in and of themselves brought the Pacers huge numbers of ticket sales - heck, I completely discount the "home town hero" effect but I'd say Hill brought more sales on name recognition than any of those guys.

    That leaves going the Chicago route and not only being bad for 6 years but getting EXTREMELY lucky in the last year to jump from 10th to 1st in the draft - notice that the years they were actually WORSE they still didn't manage to get a hot player. All that with a fan base that more-or-less pre-funded a decade of being able to survive without selling tickets because they were coming off having one of the most hyped and marketed players in history.

    For all the comments that "well, we sucked anyway, why not take advantage of it by sucking more on purpose", there was still no guarantee that we'd have ended up any better draft-wise than we are right now. None. And with all that people hated the coach and style of play, at least no one could level the accusation that the fans who attended the games (or invested money in season tickets) were being cheated by having been sold a team that had no intention of doing anything but losing. Even the worst bumbler gets respect for trying.
    It has been years since we had that player. People in this town like George Hill but he is in no way a local hero. He was obscure in high school, not well known in college and a reserve player on the Spurs. Of course he is not going to fill the arena. The rest of the country see him only as a contributing role player nothing more. He is not going to excite a fan base.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Jazz Postgame Thread 12/19/12

    I think what is lost within this argument is the fact that the pacers were NEVER one of the teams that led the league in attendance. I don't have the exact figures, but I'm pretty sure I remember reading that even during our "golden years" in the late 90's and early 2000's, we were middling in terms of attendance. So it's not something that JUST occurred. Then when you add the brawl, and the years of Pacers constantly getting into trouble off the court, many fans were turned off. It's going to take a few consistent winning seasons for the Pacers to rise in attendance.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Jazz Postgame Thread 12/19/12

    Quote Originally Posted by doctor-h View Post
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    It has been years since we had that player. People in this town like George Hill but he is in no way a local hero. He was obscure in high school, not well known in college and a reserve player on the Spurs. Of course he is not going to fill the arena. The rest of the country see him only as a contributing role player nothing more. He is not going to excite a fan base.
    I think you take for granted how difficult it is to land a true superstar player in the NBA. I'd say there are probably 12-15 true SUPERSTAR level players. When you consider that LAL, LAC, OKC, and MIA have about 7 or 8 of them within their respective teams, it should put things into context.

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  16. #161
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    Default Re: Pacers/Jazz Postgame Thread 12/19/12

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    I think what is lost within this argument is the fact that the pacers were NEVER one of the teams that led the league in attendance. I don't have the exact figures, but I'm pretty sure I remember reading that even during our "golden years" in the late 90's and early 2000's, we were middling in terms of attendance. So it's not something that JUST occurred. Then when you add the brawl, and the years of Pacers constantly getting into trouble off the court, many fans were turned off. It's going to take a few consistent winning seasons for the Pacers to rise in attendance.
    It is because Indiana is a college state. The majority of people prefer the college game over the pro game, for varying reasons (many valid).

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  18. #162

    Default Re: Pacers/Jazz Postgame Thread 12/19/12

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Well if you can show where Bird, Simon, or whoever has said any of that I will stop talking.
    You don't remember Bird and Morway talking about the Pacers being 21 million under the salary cap and they would have the flexibility to do all sorts of things. They would spend the money wisely . They spent it all and we have made changes like Collison for Augustine, Mahimi instead of Lou, Green instead of Barbosa, Young instead of Jones. You show me any improvement in the team with those moves and back it up with facts not ifs.

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  20. #163

    Default Re: Pacers/Jazz Postgame Thread 12/19/12

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    I think what is lost within this argument is the fact that the pacers were NEVER one of the teams that led the league in attendance. I don't have the exact figures, but I'm pretty sure I remember reading that even during our "golden years" in the late 90's and early 2000's, we were middling in terms of attendance. So it's not something that JUST occurred. Then when you add the brawl, and the years of Pacers constantly getting into trouble off the court, many fans were turned off. It's going to take a few consistent winning seasons for the Pacers to rise in attendance.
    You are exactly right, it is going to take years of consistent winning to build this franchise. We had one, had cap space to improve on that. We spent the cap space added nothing to improve the team, lost our GM that had brought the team back to a respectful level and are just spinning our wheels. If the Pacers go backwards again it will be devastating to this franchise and I am worried that that could happen.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Jazz Postgame Thread 12/19/12

    You are acting like we signed a bunch of guys to god awful Troy Murphy-esqe contracts, when there is NOTHING wrong with the contracts that is going to make them untradeable (in fact, we pay Ian and Gerald roughly the same amount we paid Murphy in his CHEAPEST season here). The only really bad contract from this offseason (DJ) comes off the books at the end of the season.

    Relax, amigo, the sky aint falling, even on Dec 21st 2012.
    Last edited by Sandman21; 12-21-2012 at 11:58 AM.
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  23. #165
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    Default Re: Pacers/Jazz Postgame Thread 12/19/12

    Quote Originally Posted by doctor-h View Post
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    You don't remember Bird and Morway talking about the Pacers being 21 million under the salary cap and they would have the flexibility to do all sorts of things. They would spend the money wisely . They spent it all and we have made changes like Collison for Augustine, Mahimi instead of Lou, Green instead of Barbosa, Young instead of Jones. You show me any improvement in the team with those moves and back it up with facts not ifs.
    I remember them talking about cap space when they finally had cap space, I do not remember "preached to us for years". They did not preach about it, nor did they even talk about it for years.


    Mahinmi is an obvious improvement, you would have to have no basketball sense to not see that.
    Young and Jones are mostly a wash.

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  25. #166

    Default Re: Pacers/Jazz Postgame Thread 12/19/12

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    It is because Indiana is a college state. The majority of people prefer the college game over the pro game, for varying reasons (many valid).
    Hey why do you thank Taterhead and argue with me. He is saying the same thing. You don't have to post these quotes, they are all over the internet. Just google Bird or Morway talking pacers salary cap. I am beginning to think you don't like me.

  26. #167

    Default Re: Pacers/Jazz Postgame Thread 12/19/12

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    I remember them talking about cap space when they finally had cap space, I do not remember "preached to us for years". They did not preach about it, nor did they even talk about it for years.


    Mahinmi is an obvious improvement, you would have to have no basketball sense to not see that.
    Young and Jones are mostly a wash.
    What about the other 2 I mentioned. I don't have a big problem with the Mahimi signing other than they way overpaid for him but the others were a waste of time.

  27. #168
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    Default Re: Pacers/Jazz Postgame Thread 12/19/12

    Quote Originally Posted by doctor-h View Post
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    Hey why do you thank Taterhead and argue with me. He is saying the same thing. You don't have to post these quotes, they are all over the internet. Just google Bird or Morway talking pacers salary cap. I am beginning to think you don't like me.
    I thanked Taterhead because he provided links to quotes.

    I am not arguing with you, I was simple making a factual statement as to why the Pacers have never had an above average attendance, especially when they aren't good. Like I have said in other threads, if the Pacers start to consistently win year in and year out this team will be just as if not more popular than the Colts.


    Augustin is a high school player.
    Green is a disappointment, but I don't think he is a lost cause yet and I never had a high opinion of Barbosa.
    Last edited by Eleazar; 12-21-2012 at 12:09 PM.

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  29. #169

    Default Re: Pacers/Jazz Postgame Thread 12/19/12

    Why are all of us losers not working anyway? Yes I am including myself.

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  31. #170
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    Default Re: Pacers/Jazz Postgame Thread 12/19/12

    Yep the "Troy Murphy used to make this much so anything under that is a good contract" excuse, lol.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Jazz Postgame Thread 12/19/12

    Quote Originally Posted by doctor-h View Post
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    Why are all of us losers not working anyway? Yes I am including myself.
    I am "working", it is just a slow day. No one has come to me with computer problems.

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  34. #172
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    Default Re: Pacers/Jazz Postgame Thread 12/19/12

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    I am "working", it is just a slow day. No one has come to me with computer problems.
    All my clients apparently were wiser than I was and called off today while my butt moved 1.5 miles on 465 in 45 minutes.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Jazz Postgame Thread 12/19/12

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Yep the "Troy Murphy used to make this much so anything under that is a good contract" excuse, lol.
    Wouldn't you agree that Troy Murphy was a god awful contract?

    At least the guys we signed whose contracts aren't expiring play SOME kind of defense.
    "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

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    Default Re: Pacers/Jazz Postgame Thread 12/19/12

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman21 View Post
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    Wouldn't you agree that Troy Murphy was a god awful contract?

    At least the guys we signed whose contracts aren't expiring play SOME kind of defense.
    Yes it was a bad contract but just because he was a bad contract I'm not going to use his contract as the tool to measure what bad contracts and good contracts are, DJones contract was bad and it was not as big as Murphy's, Green and Ian's are bad contracts I expect the Pacers to have problems to trade those guys in the future and have the same issues they had to trade DJ.

  38. #175

    Default Re: Pacers/Jazz Postgame Thread 12/19/12

    Thanks for the lively discussion everybody. I hope you all stay safe and have a merry christmas. My wife is dragging me off here and to the mall. Best wishes to everyone!

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