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Thread: What are your thoughts after two games without Lance?

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    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default What are your thoughts after two games without Lance?

    Just interested in people's take on the Pacers without Lance in the line up. Better? Worse? No real difference? Not enough data?

    Personally, it confirms my desire to put Young in the starting line up (if he could discipline his Kobe gene) and let Lance create more with the second unit, as that is where Lance will be when Granger returns.

    But I am interested in other's thoughts, especially those not as high on Lance as I am.
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    Default Re: What are your thoughts after two games without Lance?

    Not enough data.

    We've managed, but I'd strongly prefer to have the healthy bodies available.

    I didn't hear anything last night about a return date, did anybody else?
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    Default Re: What are your thoughts after two games without Lance?

    Pacers missed Lance. Right now Pacers have 6 guys that can really play. Lance is one of those guys. The rest of the team are still maybes night in and night out. Until Danny gets back, Lance needs to stay at the 2. He will get plenty of minutes with the bench during the course of the game.

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    Default Re: What are your thoughts after two games without Lance?

    I've never been a Lance fan, nor a non-fan really. I frankly didn't understand Bird's infatuation. But, especially after seeing Lance this season, I would want him as a member of our second unit for the next couple of years to see how much more he can learn and develop. And, that should be fairly easy to do. It's not like their is a long line of suitors set to take him off our hands.

    I do think that he could help facilitate the offense and scoring for the second unit. As for his interim starting role, he has been steady. He hasn't helped a whole lot, neither has he hurt us. His best trait is that he has played defense (at least man-on-man anyway) while not making too many mistakes and not requiring the ball.

    Green and Young cannot make these claims and usually, have hurt the performance of the starting unit more than helped. I frankly don't see Green as a starter at all. Young could fill in nicely, if he is willing to realize that his role is primarily defense and that he must learn to somewhat "tone down" his offensive activities. In other words, learn to help without doing harm.

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    Default Re: What are your thoughts after two games without Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Just interested in people's take on the Pacers without Lance in the line up. Better? Worse? No real difference? Not enough data?

    Personally, it confirms my desire to put Young in the starting line up (if he could discipline his Kobe gene) and let Lance create more with the second unit, as that is where Lance will be when Granger returns.

    But I am interested in other's thoughts, especially those not as high on Lance as I am.
    I think I have been clear. Play Lance with the starters and give him starters minutes. I would even have Granger on the second unit if and when he returns to keep Lance getting playing time. He is the only potential star on this team. Giving him the chance to develop into one....... ...

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    Default Re: What are your thoughts after two games without Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    I think I have been clear. Play Lance with the starters and give him starters minutes. I would even have Granger on the second unit if and when he returns to keep Lance getting playing time. He is the only potential star on this team. Giving him the chance to develop into one....... ...
    This doesn't make sense.

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    Default Re: What are your thoughts after two games without Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    I didn't hear anything last night about a return date, did anybody else?
    According to NBA.Com 's summary of last night's game Vogel says Lance could be back tonight.
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    Default Re: What are your thoughts after two games without Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    This doesn't make sense.
    Why? Just because you say so? We know that Granger won't get any better. It is unlikely that PG gets much better but Lance is nearly unlimited. If you don't like the idea of sitting down Granger then sit down PG but keep Lance in the starting lineup. I think the first unit is much better defensively with PG and Lance starting. Perhaps Granger won't be back at all and this won't be a problem. ...

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    Default Re: What are your thoughts after two games without Lance?

    From what I've seen so far, I would MUCH rather see Lance playing than Gerald Green. Back when we signed Green, I didn't think it was a good idea but I was hoping that he'd prove me wrong. Preseason went alright for him, but he's been a disappointment so far this season. Lance has been great for us out on the court in many ways in this 2012-13 season, and I think it will only continue. I believe we're a better team with Lance, at least from a scoring standpoint.

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    Default Re: What are your thoughts after two games without Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    It is unlikely that PG gets much better but Lance is nearly unlimited.
    How so? They are both the same age and in their third year. Granted, Paul had a helluva lot more minutes than Lance in the first two, but he is still just a young buck too. He is getting better before our eyes right now. Paul averaged 7.8 PPG his rookie year, 12.1 last year, and is at 16.5 this year (which is going up as we speak). All of the evidence points to it being likely that Paul George continues his upward progression in production for at least a couple of more seasons. Talented 22 year old players usually don't reach their peak in year three. Paul should continue to improve for a few more years.

    I'm a big believer in Lance, BTW. I'm excited about his potential. But Paul is also getting better before our eyes and who knows what his limit is? I agree with you that Granger likely won't get any better though.

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    Default Re: What are your thoughts after two games without Lance?

    Paul's borderline all star right now Blu, and he's nowhere near his prime. I'm a big Lance fan, and I'm glad to hear you are too, but let's not short change Paul. If he can just average close to 20 a game with his defense he's gonna be a star and be recognized so at a lot of all star games.

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    Default Re: What are your thoughts after two games without Lance?

    To the OPs topic... I miss Lance.

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    Default Re: What are your thoughts after two games without Lance?

    His numbers aren't great, but the real value is having a 2nd ball handler on the floor. He has the teams 3rd best plus-minus despite being 5th in minutes played.

    IMHO he could shoot a bit more and needs to start getting to the line. I'd like to see his scoring in the low teens.

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    Default Re: What are your thoughts after two games without Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    Why? Just because you say so? ...
    No because common sense says it. Lance has had a good run and is improved. Let us keep in mind that he is not playing at an All-Star level. George and Granger have or are currently playing at this level. From where Lance has come, it is great that he is our third best wing on this team.

    But unless Danny comes back like Dunleavy did after his knee problems (which is not out of the question this year and beyond), Lance needs to come off the bench and get 25 mpg. Which is the same as he is getting now. Which needs to be more if Gerald plays like a school girl.

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    Default Re: What are your thoughts after two games without Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    No because common sense says it. Lance has had a good run and is improved. Let us keep in mind that he is not playing at an All-Star level. George and Granger have or are currently playing at this level. From where Lance has come, it is great that he is our third best wing on this team.

    But unless Danny comes back like Dunleavy did after his knee problems (which is not out of the question this year and beyond), Lance needs to come off the bench and get 25 mpg. Which is the same as he is getting now. Which needs to be more if Gerald plays like a school girl.
    Granger has not play at an all star level for years and PG has not played at an all star level yet. When Granger comes back the defense instantly gets worse. Granger is on the decline and he has injury issues. Play him 20 minutes per game off the bench and you MIGHT get some value at him. I think Lance has the ability to be the best wing on this team and he is the only one with enough upside to become a super star. Lance is easily the Pacers most improved player and perhaps the most improved player in the entire NBA ...

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    Default Re: What are your thoughts after two games without Lance?

    I don't thick Lance will ever be a star. And I don't believe that it will be skills that prevents that nearly as much as "opportunity". I think that he will prove himself to be a valuable player off the bench. I just don't see much more than that because, other than his interim starting role for the Pacers, I don't see him performing at such a high level to enable other teams, nor the Pacers, from viewing him as anything more than that.

    To be viewed differently, he would have to do something that draws draws attention, including playing at a consistently decent level over time.

    But what do I know? Two years ago, I never would have guessed that the Pacers would still be picking up Lance's options. I thought he would be in street clothes by now. He has come a long way, both on and apparently off the court as well.

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    Default Re: What are your thoughts after two games without Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    Paul's borderline all star right now Blu, and he's nowhere near his prime. I'm a big Lance fan, and I'm glad to hear you are too, but let's not short change Paul. If he can just average close to 20 a game with his defense he's gonna be a star and be recognized so at a lot of all star games.
    At what position? He isn't going to be an all star as a small forward, there are just to many players way ahead of him. At SG, he is behind Wade and several others. I don't see him making any all star team in the near future..... ...

  27. #18

    Default Re: What are your thoughts after two games without Lance?

    Lance looked fine last night. Even jumped off the bench (in suit) twice.
    If games are won and lost on a calculator and piece of paper, then why do we bother to play them?

    @LetsTalkPacers

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    Default Re: What are your thoughts after two games without Lance?

    My thought after two games without Lance is that what really matters is whether Hill, West, and Hibbert play well.

    We're getting a nice boost from Paul lately. But we've still got the 30th best wing combination in the league right now and will until Danny gets healthy.
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    Default Re: What are your thoughts after two games without Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    Granger has not play at an all star level for years and PG has not played at an all star level yet. When Granger comes back the defense instantly gets worse. Granger is on the decline and he has injury issues. Play him 20 minutes per game off the bench and you MIGHT get some value at him. I think Lance has the ability to be the best wing on this team and he is the only one with enough upside to become a super star. Lance is easily the Pacers most improved player and perhaps the most improved player in the entire NBA ...
    If Danny played the first 20 games like he did the last 20 of the regular season he would have been a nominee. But besides that you are willing to junk the season for what Lance MIGHT get to when we have two foreseeable capable players. I would understand your argument if it was out of injury concern. But to say we need to bench a 3pt specialist who has played defense in crunch time and rose above opposition for a player, who just now got into the rotation and out of the and1 mode?

    This conversation would make sense a year from now or in the offseason. But now it is glorifying a what-could-be for something that is more trustworthy.

    I guess we can agree on the values of current players and where they are at though.

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    Default Re: What are your thoughts after two games without Lance?

    His cousin talked to me last night and said he will return next game.

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    Default Re: What are your thoughts after two games without Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    If Danny played the first 20 games like he did the last 20 of the regular season he would have been a nominee. But besides that you are willing to junk the season for what Lance MIGHT get to when we have two foreseeable capable players. I would understand your argument if it was out of injury concern. But to say we need to bench a 3pt specialist who has played defense in crunch time and rose above opposition for a player, who just now got into the rotation and out of the and1 mode?

    This conversation would make sense a year from now or in the offseason. But now it is glorifying a what-could-be for something that is more trustworthy.

    I guess we can agree on the values of current players and where they are at though.

    With Granger back, the Pacers are a middle of the road team in the NBA. They will make the playoffs and probably lose in the first round. That is not being a contender. Lance has the chance to be a superstar but he won't become that riding the pine. We have a good look at PG and he will be a good player but no star. He has gotten to start and lots of playing time to develop. Lance hasn't gotten that. The Pacers are not going to contend unless they get a star player. I think Lance has the best chance of becoming that of anyone on this team....... ...

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    Default Re: What are your thoughts after two games without Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    With Granger back, the Pacers are a middle of the road team in the NBA. They will make the playoffs and probably lose in the first round. That is not being a contender. Lance has the chance to be a superstar but he won't become that riding the pine. We have a good look at PG and he will be a good player but no star. He has gotten to start and lots of playing time to develop. Lance hasn't gotten that. The Pacers are not going to contend unless they get a star player. I think Lance has the best chance of becoming that of anyone on this team....... ...
    I like Lance.

    The first game I ever saw Lance play in, yes summer league I know, I saw him and said that this guy above all others has a real chance to be a special player in the NBA because he has it all. Size, super long arms and an explosive first step.

    However he had way to much Rucker Park in him to ever succeed at our level. Consider him like a Wild Stallion, all the power and glory but just untamed.

    He had to break some of those bad habbits and now he is on the path to being a player. I don't know if he will ever realize his potential as a player but I still say he has all the tools.

    Also I will say this, if he were drafted by a team that was nowhere near playing for the playoffs and they just gave him full reign to do whatever I think he would have already made a name for himself. It would not have translated into wins but he would have been known. Think Tyreke Evans here.

    Now having said all of that my question to you is what is it that you see that makes you agree that he has the potential to be a star?

    Now where I disagree with you is the perception that the Pacers with Granger are a middle of the road team. Unless you are saying he will make us worse, then I really disagree, but we are a middle of the road team right now without him. I think he would put us slightly above middle, not contender per se but still better than middle. Our bench is to weak for me to consider us a legitimate contender right now, however if he was back the bench dynamic would change one way or the other so it might even be better but I can't say for sure.


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    Default Re: What are your thoughts after two games without Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    With Granger back, the Pacers are a middle of the road team in the NBA. They will make the playoffs and probably lose in the first round. That is not being a contender. Lance has the chance to be a superstar but he won't become that riding the pine. We have a good look at PG and he will be a good player but no star. He has gotten to start and lots of playing time to develop. Lance hasn't gotten that. The Pacers are not going to contend unless they get a star player. I think Lance has the best chance of becoming that of anyone on this team....... ...
    I agree with Blu on this one. Not necessarily that we should bench Granger, but we should be looking for real opportunities to "Free Lance" and see if his tantalizing potential is the real deal or a mirage.

    Danny can score and Paul is showing more promise as an all around all star. But neither of them have the ability to create or to see the floor the way Lance does. Lance has that Magic/Bird triple double constant threat that is unique.

    Could he become a star? Don't know yet. I sure would like to find out and give it a fair shake. For starters, I would simply like to give him some freedom with the ball in the second unit as an incremental move to see what we have.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: What are your thoughts after two games without Lance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I like Lance.

    The first game I ever saw Lance play in, yes summer league I know, I saw him and said that this guy above all others has a real chance to be a special player in the NBA because he has it all. Size, super long arms and an explosive first step.

    However he had way to much Rucker Park in him to ever succeed at our level. Consider him like a Wild Stallion, all the power and glory but just untamed.

    He had to break some of those bad habbits and now he is on the path to being a player. I don't know if he will ever realize his potential as a player but I still say he has all the tools.

    Also I will say this, if he were drafted by a team that was nowhere near playing for the playoffs and they just gave him full reign to do whatever I think he would have already made a name for himself. It would not have translated into wins but he would have been known. Think Tyreke Evans here.

    Now having said all of that my question to you is what is it that you see that makes you agree that he has the potential to be a star?

    Now where I disagree with you is the perception that the Pacers with Granger are a middle of the road team. Unless you are saying he will make us worse, then I really disagree, but we are a middle of the road team right now without him. I think he would put us slightly above middle, not contender per se but still better than middle. Our bench is to weak for me to consider us a legitimate contender right now, however if he was back the bench dynamic would change one way or the other so it might even be better but I can't say for sure.
    I think you are talking to OlBlu here, but my two cents is that Granger will make us significantly better. Granger is good. Maybe even real good. But not great.

    The distinctions between a Granger or a PG and what Lance might become will only show up in the deep runs of playoffs. At that point, the great defenses really show up. At that point, guys like Granger and PG, who don't quite have the handles to overcome the pressure and make a play, keep us from advancing. Lance may have the ability to be that type of player. Besides the fact he has the size, talent, and ability, he also has a track record in New York for showing up in big moments.

    These types of players are very rare. Only a couple show up in the draft every year. The Pacers rarely have a chance to sign one. Lance is still a longshot, but he's the closest thing we have, in my opinion, to a player who could get us over the hump into the ECF and then to a championship.
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