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Thread: Kravitz: offseason upgrades to bench were no upgrades

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    Default Kravitz: offseason upgrades to bench were no upgrades

    Nothing but the obvious stated here.

    There are times when I watch Gerald Green play that I am shocked at how terrible a basketball player he really is. He has no clue how to play. Sure he is a great athlete and a pretty good shooter, but everything else he is horrible. I have trouble watching him

    http://www.indystar.com/article/20121213/SPORTS4/212130334/Kravitz-Pacers-offseason-upgrades-bench-were-no-upgrades

    The NBA trading deadline is months away, but already, it’s time for Indiana Pacers bosses Donnie Walsh and Kevin Pritchard to work on bringing in reinforcements.
    The reason is simple: With this bench, the Pacers aren’t going to get out of the first round of the playoffs — assuming they even reach the playoffs.

    After Wednesday night’s 96-81 victory over the Cleveland Cavaliers, the Pacers’ bench has now been outscored in 16 of 22 games — it was 35-21 Cavs subs at Bankers Life Fieldhouse — and has shown no signs it is going to get out of this funk.

    Coming into the game, the Pacers ranked 28th in the league in plus-minus ratings, and 24th in bench scoring at 26.9 points per game.

    It’s gotten so bad, coach Frank Vogel already has made one change — Ben Hansbrough replacing the startlingly inept D.J. Augustin at backup point guard — and he’s ready to make more moves if the bench doesn’t start to produce.

    And you’d better believe that Vogel is already in Walsh’s and Pritchard’s ear about making some moves down the line. He sees what we all see. This team lacks depth, and that’s a bad thing, especially when your starting center, Roy Hibbert, is having a gruesome year offensively. It’s also forcing him to use his starters for more minutes in an effort to hide the bench.

    The early returns on Walsh’s and Pritchard’s initial moves have not been good.
    And that’s surprising, because on paper, the additions of Augustin and Gerald Green looked like they were going to make the Pacers’ bench more formidable.
    Augustin started for Charlotte and averaged 11.1 points and 6.4 assists per game.

    Green, who has been around the world and around the league, had a coming-out party last year, averaging 12.9 points in 25 minutes per game for the New Jersey Nets.

    But Augustin has been a giant mystery of Loch Ness-ian proportions. Even the coaches can’t figure out what happened to a guy who looked like a starter for most teams. He has been miserable defensively, and offensively, he can’t shoot (27 percent from the field) and rarely penetrates the paint to create shots for others.

    Darren Collison, anybody?

    The Pacers traded Collison in large measure because they feared he would go into the tank as a backup to George Hill. They had every reason to believe Augustin would be a suitable replacement, if not a minor upgrade. Instead, he has been a disaster.

    Green? He has been so-so, and was particularly awful Wednesday night, making 1-of-8 shots and committing three turnovers. He shows occasional flashes, but for the most part, he’s a great athlete who doesn’t quite know how to play basketball.

    The Pacers fell in love with his athleticism, but his hoops IQ is limited. After a nice season in Jersey, he’s averaging just 7.1 points per game in 21 minutes and shooting just 38 percent from the field.

    Leandro Barbosa, anybody?

    I was confused why they let Barbosa walk. Sure, he was unproductive in the Miami series, but so were a lot of people. During the regular season, though, he was one of the few Pacers bench players who could create his own shot. Now look at this bench and tell me: Who can do the same thing?

    Nobody.

    At least Ian Mahinmi has been a nice upgrade over Lou Amundson. No complaints about him. Except maybe that most of his tweets are in French. And I don’t speak French.

    And then there’s Tyler Hansbrough, whose minutes are going to get cut if he doesn’t start showing a bit more offensive flair.

    “We’ve got to start looking for minutes for Jeff (Pendergraph),’’ Vogel said. “And our rookies (Miles Plumlee and Orlando Johnson) are starting to come along.’’

    Hansbrough simply hasn’t improved since his second year. He still plays hard, still gets rebounds and defends, but he has no low-post moves and isn’t hitting that 15-foot jumper he was making with such alacrity his second season in the league. He came into the Cleveland game averaging 5.9 points and shooting 38 percent from the field.

    “We knew changing our bench didn’t necessarily mean improvement,’’ Vogel said. “Obviously, we hoped for it, but remember, last year’s bench wasn’t succeeding at a high level, either, which was why we made all those changes. I’ve just got to keep challenging them to be better, and I’ve got to find a way to use them better.’’

    Eventually (we think), Danny Granger will return, which will not only empower the starting unit, but allow Lance Stephenson to return to the second unit. Stephenson has had a nice year and will be a good addition at the two-guard. Just don’t look for him to play the point.

    By then, they either need Ben Hansbrough to turn into Jeremy Lin, or they need Augustin to rediscover his game.

    Or they need to make a deal.

    Preferably, and necessarily, the latter.



    Bob Kravitz is a columnist for The Indianapolis Star. Call him at (317) 444-6643 or email bob.kravitz@indystar.com. You can also follow Bob on Twitter at @bkravitz.
    Last edited by BillS; 12-13-2012 at 09:53 AM. Reason: cleanup

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    Default Re: Kravitz: offseason upgrades to bench were no upgrades

    I never take Bob Kravits opinion too seriously, especially when its about the Pacers. Hes constantly stating the obvious, and his opinion flip flops from week to week. He should stick to talking Colts.
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    Default Re: Kravitz: offseason upgrades to bench were no upgrades

    One wonders whether has a post count he uses to tell him when to write a column based on what he reads here, or whether he just skims the forum when he is out of ideas. Then again, have we ever seen vnzla81 and Kravitz photographed together? Hmm...
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    Default Re: Kravitz: offseason upgrades to bench were no upgrades

    Quote Originally Posted by CreekShow View Post
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    I never take Bob Kravits opinion too seriously, especially when its about the Pacers. Hes constantly stating the obvious, and his opinion flip flops from week to week. He should stick to talking Colts.
    Newspapers don't publish stories for people on this site. As a close follower of the Pacers, of course what he says is stating the obvious to you. To the vast, vast majority of people who read this, none of it is obvious.
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    Default Re: Kravitz: offseason upgrades to bench were no upgrades

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    Newspapers don't publish stories for people on this site. As a close follower of the Pacers, of course what he says is stating the obvious to you. To the vast, vast majority of people who read this, none of it is obvious.
    Its not just the obvious Pacer stuff either. I was speaking for myself as to why I dont take him seriously. Never said anything about the vast majority or anyone else.

    And while we are @ it, yes I do think if you watch ANY Pacers Basketball, that this article is clearly stating the obvious.
    Last edited by CreekShow; 12-13-2012 at 09:31 AM.
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    Default Re: Kravitz: offseason upgrades to bench were no upgrades

    Quote Originally Posted by CreekShow View Post
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    Its not just the obvious Pacer stuff either. I was speaking for myself as to why I dont take him seriously. Never said anything about the vast majority or anyone else.

    And while we are @ it, yes I do think if you watch ANY Pacers Basketball, that this article is clearly stating the obvious.
    A very large portion of the people that read Bob, don't watch any Pacers basketball, so again, it isn't meant for you.

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    Default Re: Kravitz: offseason upgrades to bench were no upgrades

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    A very large portion of the people that read Bob, don't watch any Pacers basketball, so again, it isn't meant for you.
    Redundant post is redundant. Write an article over a subject for an audience who doesnt watch nor care about said subject. Your logic is flawed
    Last edited by CreekShow; 12-13-2012 at 09:55 AM.
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    Default Re: Kravitz: offseason upgrades to bench were no upgrades

    Quote Originally Posted by CreekShow View Post
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    Redundant post is redundant. Write an article about a subject for an audience who dont watch nor care about said subject. Your logic is flawed
    There is a very real difference between not watching it, and not caring about it. They're still the hometown team, and hence Kravitz and the Star has a very real obligation to cover them. Look at the numbers that FSI gets for their game broadcasts. Look at how many people are in the stands. As a fan that closely follows this team, actually watches the games, and is up to date with what is going on, you are the extreme minority.

    He is writing for his audience, which is the majority of Indianapolis that may not watch, but still wants to know what's going on. You're taking offense because he isn't writing his columns for you as a small minority member of his readership? That doesn't make sense.

    All this thread has shown is that he's better at his job as a writer, than you are as a writing critic.

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    Default Re: Kravitz: offseason upgrades to bench were no upgrades

    The Kravitz fan club showing out strong this morning. I find it funny how you came to the conclusion I was offended. Your reading conprehension must be lacking bc I clearly stated my own opinion, and why I formed that opinion. I am still allowed an opinion right? If you read my post I also said its not just the Pacers stuff he writes about either.

    Seems like I offended you with my assesment of old Bob. Sorry bro I didnt mean it. Bob is the GOAT
    Last edited by CreekShow; 12-13-2012 at 10:20 AM.
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    Default Re: Kravitz: offseason upgrades to bench were no upgrades

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    There are times when I watch Gerald Green play that I am shocked at how terrible a basketball player he really is. He has no clue how to play. Sure he is a great athlete and a pretty good shooter, but everything else he is horrible. I have trouble watching him.
    Agreed.

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    Default Re: Kravitz: offseason upgrades to bench were no upgrades

    Nothing new here, I disagree with Kravitz about Ian I still think he is not that good and to pay that much money for a player that doesn't bring an speciality is a waste of money.

    The best off season ever for the Pacers came up as probably one of the worse ever, at least when they brought Diener, Kareem and the rest of the scrubs they didn't give them big long term contracts.

    And also Kravitz is asking to fix the bench, how? the Pacers don't have the pieces, cap space or good picks to make anything happen, if they couldn't do anything with cap space and pieces what makes Kravitz think that they can do it now?

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    Default Re: Kravitz: offseason upgrades to bench were no upgrades

    I'd take Ian over Lou, and Sam Young's way better than I expected. So that's positive.

    At the backup wing spots, I prefer Stephenson/Young to Barbosa/Inferno. I recognize Green's shortcomings, but I also expect him to get better under our more disciplined coaching.

    Augustin's the only really big miss from the offseason, and I don't really understand that one or blame our front office for it. Nobody in the world expected him to be this bad, including Kravitz or anybody on this board. As far as I'm concerned, this is all on DJ himself.

    If Granger's playing 30+ minutes a night, then everything about the bench except the backup PG spot looks pretty good.
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    Default Re: Kravitz: offseason upgrades to bench were no upgrades

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    And also Kravitz is asking to fix the bench, how? the Pacers don't have the pieces, cap space or good picks to make anything happen, if they couldn't do anything with cap space and pieces what makes Kravitz think that they can do it now?
    Getting Granger back and pushing Stephenson to the bench at the 2 gets the bench mostly fixed. The backup PG spot is still a problem unless Lance was able to play there, and I'd try that before trading for someone else.
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    Default Re: Kravitz: offseason upgrades to bench were no upgrades

    I guess Bob didn't get the memo about the Star and their faux outrage at the Bloomington South Girls Basketball coach.
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    Default Re: Kravitz: offseason upgrades to bench were no upgrades

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Getting Granger back and pushing Stephenson to the bench at the 2 gets the bench mostly fixed. The backup PG spot is still a problem unless Lance was able to play there, and I'd try that before trading for someone else.
    Even with Granger back, unless he spends a lot of time at power forward, Hansbrough's minutes are still a major issue.

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    Default Re: Kravitz: offseason upgrades to bench were no upgrades

    I'm glad something is being said but he's way too easy on Walsh and Pritchard. I agree with vnzla81, Ian only gets a pass for his 17 or 18 bad games and a few good ones due to who he replaced and the bar being set so low by the other newcomers. He's still a bad long term contract to have.
    I wish I could see a quick fix to this but I just don't. Let Granger come back and see what happens. Then try to dump Green this summer and let Walsh retire before going after a backup pg. On the bright side our draft pick might be good enough to contribute.

  28. #17

    Default Re: Kravitz: offseason upgrades to bench were no upgrades

    I was confused why they let Barbosa walk.
    Because he's not good at basketball anymore.

    Also a very awkward final line:

    Preferably, and necessarily, the latter.
    What an ending!

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    Default Re: Kravitz: offseason upgrades to bench were no upgrades

    These NBA players are like pieces to a puzzle.

    Our pieces (at least the ones on the bench) both don't fit together and are unlikely to turn into an image when you're done.

    That doesn't make them bad pieces. It just makes them incompatible, at the moment.

    We all know Hansbrough's game. He can get to the line, and when he has confidence, he has a pretty decent midrange game.

    We know what Augustin can do. He *can* facilitate, and he likes to run. But for whatever reason, he's struggling in his backup role, and is just flat out awful right now.

    Green, when brought together with the right puzzle pieces, could play a real role as a catch and shoot and transition offense player.

    Mahinmi has all sorts of positive qualities, especially when you compare him to what we previously had for our backup 5 over the past few years.

    I think it's way too oversimplified to say that "this player sucks"... 95% of this board prior to this year thought that Lance Stephenson "sucked". It's much more multidimensional then what shows up in box scores.

    Hell, we made McRoberts look like a legit player because we sculpted a place for him in the roster that played to his strengths. This kind of work takes time and patience for our coaching staff.
    Last edited by docpaul; 12-13-2012 at 11:51 AM.

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    Default Re: Kravitz: offseason upgrades to bench were no upgrades

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    Even with Granger back, unless he spends a lot of time at power forward, Hansbrough's minutes are still a major issue.
    Jump shot is horrible. Can't score without shuffling his feet in order to get lined up to use his right hand and right hand only. How can two time ACC player of the year not be able to use his left hand??

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    Default Re: Kravitz: offseason upgrades to bench were no upgrades

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    There is a very real difference between not watching it, and not caring about it. They're still the hometown team, and hence Kravitz and the Star has a very real obligation to cover them. Look at the numbers that FSI gets for their game broadcasts. Look at how many people are in the stands. As a fan that closely follows this team, actually watches the games, and is up to date with what is going on, you are the extreme minority.

    He is writing for his audience, which is the majority of Indianapolis that may not watch, but still wants to know what's going on. You're taking offense because he isn't writing his columns for you as a small minority member of his readership? That doesn't make sense.

    All this thread has shown is that he's better at his job as a writer, than you are as a writing critic.
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    Default Re: Kravitz: offseason upgrades to bench were no upgrades

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhound80 View Post
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    Jump shot is horrible. Can't score without shuffling his feet in order to get lined up to use his right hand and right hand only. How can two time ACC player of the year not be able to use his left hand??
    I don't think you could play above 2A boys Indiana basketball and not have a left hand, its amazing he's accomplished what he has. I guess he was just such a physical force in college that it didn't matter. It's almost unbelieveably how that one skill fell through the cracks. Maybe he just isn't wired to be able to use his left, I've never met anyone incapable of it, but maybe thats the case. That one single ability to finish with his left would make him a completely different player and he'd get 'and ones' constantly, imo. He probably be able to avoid some of the beating he takes on a nightly basis too. Guys just hang on his right hand and either block it or are in position to clobber him. Pretty crazy, it sounds like I'm over hyping it, but I really think it would be something simple to add that could make such a difference.
    Last edited by Speed; 12-13-2012 at 01:21 PM.

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    Default Re: Kravitz: offseason upgrades to bench were no upgrades

    For once Kravitz is right
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    Default Re: Kravitz: offseason upgrades to bench were no upgrades

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Nothing new here, I disagree with Kravitz about Ian I still think he is not that good and to pay that much money for a player that doesn't bring an speciality is a waste of money.
    tweeting in French isn't a specialty to you?

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    Default Re: Kravitz: offseason upgrades to bench were no upgrades

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    I don't think you could play above 2A boys Indiana basketball and not have a left hand, its amazing he's accomplished what he has. I guess he was just such a physical force in college that it didn't matter. It's almost unbelieveably how that one skill fell through the cracks. Maybe he just isn't wired to be able to use his left, I've never met anyone incapable of it, but maybe thats the case. That one single ability to finish with his left would make him a completely different player and he'd get 'and ones' constantly, imo. He probably be able to avoid some of the beating he takes on a nightly basis too. Guys just hang on his right hand and either block it or are in position to clobber him. Pretty crazy, it sounds like I'm over hyping it, but I really think it would be something simple to add that could make such a difference.
    Your not over hyping it and I don't think it is simple for him as you indicated to begin with. He has 2 left feet and his bro is not much different. Very awkward fellas.
    Last edited by Pacer Fan; 12-13-2012 at 01:41 PM.
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    Default Re: Kravitz: offseason upgrades to bench were no upgrades

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    One wonders whether has a post count he uses to tell him when to write a column based on what he reads here, or whether he just skims the forum when he is out of ideas. Then again, have we ever seen vnzla81 and Kravitz photographed together? Hmm...
    vnzla81 works harder than Kravtiz ever has.
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