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Thread: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

  1. #151
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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by boombaby1987 View Post
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    Dece, no one(or very few) on this board is happy with a perennial second round playoff exit. Guess what, its only happened once. How do you know this team is not going to be capable of improving upon last seasons success?

    Dece you have an extremely negative viewpoint, while someone like Naptown Seth has an extremely positive viewpoint. In reality, it is probably a balance between the two.
    I've typically had the rep of being pretty pessimisstic in the past (I used to have the Negative Nancy avitar - Nancy Regan Just Say No). I think I'm being realistic. I see high talent levels, elite defensive ability and 3 guys who are reaching a point of being able to score at will. Seems pretty strong to me.

    "Well, we're pretty good. We even took the Heat without Bosh to 6 games! That's good enough for me."
    Get ready for failure then. Since you are ONLY a Captain, you failed your career. Since you ONLY have 3 degrees, you failed your education. Have you won the Nobel Prize? No. Well I guess you just don't care about being smart or helping people, you are easily satisfied with lower levels of "success", which is really just "first place loser".


    The inability to distinguish between playing things smart, putting yourself in an optimal position for success without chasing excessive risk with potential catostrophic failure from "satisfied with failure" is just bizarre. Winners know that there are more factors than your own strategies and effort, and that the whims of the moment and the opponent's own efforts can derail even the most certain of outcomes. They are winners because they DON'T PANIC and chase after shiny objects, they take comfort in the confidence that they've lined things up well and are giving themselves the highest probability of winning. PROBABILITY of winning, not guarantee.

    So you go play your 19 team parlay or PowerBall and spend the rest of your life losing the potential to "win it all" while the rest of us go 401K our ways to solid success. I don't think it takes guts to take huge gambles. I think it takes guts to stick to the slower grind and not waiver in the face of adversity.

    BTW, the Colts and Dungy used this approach, the play it smart, don't gamble on defense, give yourself the most chances to win. In the end they won one and got close many other times. Apart from the Patriots (who have been hurt by gambles like Ocho and win by being smart) no other team showed that kind of run. Other teams gambled, took their shot at the top, missed and fell like a rock. The Colts took bad beats and just came back as strong as ever, year after year.

    The Jazz would NOT HAVE WON A TITLE if they had traded Stockton and Malone. Why? Because they would not have gotten Jordan in the trade. End of story. The Jazz didn't play it safe, satisified to keep losing. They reached the top and found out that even if you do everything possible to get there, you might just run into another guy a little bit better that will always have your number. Had they seen that and panicked with a Stockton and/or Malone dump "while they had value" they only would have wasted several great seasons where they took strong runs at the title.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 12-18-2012 at 11:24 AM.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Get this crap out of here, Dece. If you're so proud of being an adult, then please do us the courtesy of acting like one.
    Oh please, I was clearly teasing him after having admitted I was wrong twice. Honestly get over yourself.
    Last edited by Dece; 12-18-2012 at 11:12 AM.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    You see Seth, if I rest on my laurels then you are correct, I have failed. I'm not perfect, nor am I good enough. Just as the Pacers are not perfect, nor are they good enough. Even if I win a Nobel I still should be trying to be better. You're never good enough that you should stop trying to be better. Just as the Heat, who DID win a championship came out and said, "we need to be better next year." If you aren't always seeking to improve yourself, if you ever reach a point where you think you are as good as you can be, then yes, you have failed.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    The most hilarious part of this conversation, is that most of those arguing are basing their arguments upon 22 games into the season. Claiming front office success or failure based upon the performance to date. That's totally nonsensical.

    Players move up (or down) in their performance over time.
    New players not accustomed to systems take time to adjust to them.
    Some trades that initially look really, really bad turn around and look different over time.
    Players behave differently closer to season's end and in playoff circumstances.
    Injuries change team dynamics.

    Etc, etc.

    It's total nonsense to say that a front office has succeeded or failed based upon the games to date. Unless you're Nostradamus, and basing those claims on clairvoyance or your ability to predict the future.

    Additionally, fans have a different set of outcomes that are important to them vs. those in the front office who actually are responsible for making the decisions.

    For example, all fans care about is winning (and rightfully so!), while the front office is additionally concerned with financial viability, the relationship the team has with the community, and other business-related issues.

    To judge the front office's performance based only upon one outcome, and not the others... vastly oversimplifies the dynamics which underpin whether the city/state even is able to maintain the team.
    Last edited by docpaul; 12-18-2012 at 11:32 AM.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tuts Tomb View Post
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    What you're doing isn't even backseat driving. You're looking at the car in the other lane asking "Why didn't you buy that car?"
    If your job is to get the best car for the least money, and the guy next to you does it better than you, YOU SHOULD ask why you didn't buy that car. What you've described here is called accountability. Every job and every person should have accountability. Thanks for proving my point.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    I've typically had the rep of being pretty pessimisstic in the past (I used to have the Negative Nancy avitar - Nancy Regan Just Say No). I think I'm being realistic.
    You are never in the middle, your are either a darksider or a 100% blue and gold koolaid drinker.

    I see high talent levels, elite defensive ability and 3 guys who are reaching a point of being able to score at will. Seems pretty strong to me.
    Yes the defense is good.

    Get ready for failure then. Since you are ONLY a Captain, you failed your career. Since you ONLY have 3 degrees, you failed your education. Have you won the Nobel Prize? No. Well I guess you just don't care about being smart or helping people, you are easily satisfied with lower levels of "success", which is really just "first place loser".
    You are coming up with the weirdest examples to make up excuses for a front office that has failed, amazing.

    The inability to distinguish between playing things smart, putting yourself in an optimal position for success without chasing excessive risk with potential catostrophic failure from "satisfied with failure" is just bizarre. Winners know that there are more factors than your own strategies and effort, and that the whims of the moment and the opponent's own efforts can derail even the most certain of outcomes. They are winners because they DON'T PANIC and chase after shiny objects, they take comfort in the confidence that they've lined things up well and are given themselves the highest probability of winning. PROBABILITY of winning, not guarantee.
    To win you have to first try to win, the Pacers are not trying to win.

    So you go play your 19 team parlay or PowerBall and spend the rest of your life losing the potential to "win it all" while the rest of us go 401K our ways to solid success. I don't think it takes guts to take huge gambles. I think it takes guts to stick to the slower grind and not waiver in the face of adversity.
    Power ball? seriously?


    BTW, the Colts and Dungy used this approach, the play it smart, don't gamble on defense, give yourself the most chances to win. In the end they won one and got close many other times.
    They could have won more if it was not for the "Dungy aproach".

    Apart from the Patriots (who have been hurt by gambles like Ocho and win by being smart) no other team showed that kind of run. Other teams gambled, took their shot at the top, missed and fell like a rock. The Colts took bad beats and just came back as strong as ever, year after year.
    The Colts had a hall of famer QB comparable to Lebron in the NBA wtf are you talking about?

    The Jazz would NOT HAVE WON A TITLE if they had traded Stockton and Malone. Why? Because they would not have gotten Jordan in the trade. End of story. The Jazz didn't play it safe, satisified to keep losing. They reached the top and found out that even if you do everything possible to get there, you might just run into another guy a little bit better that will always have your number. Had they seen that and panicked with a Stockton and/or Malone dump "while they had value" they only would have wasted several great seasons where they took strong runs at the title.
    Stockton and Malone are hall of famers you keep bringing up the weirdest examples ever.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    god, shut up already. this is going nowhere.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by docpaul View Post
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    The most hilarious part of this conversation, is that most of those arguing are basing their arguments upon 22 games into the season. Claiming front office success or failure based upon the performance to date. That's totally nonsensical.
    The Pacers admitted failure by benching a player they signed this off season with 22 games into the season is that prove enough to you or should we wait one more year?

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    I'm sorry, are you being forced to participiate or something? Did I navigate you here and demand you read through it all? Have you been locked into a room full of guys who are going to harm you if you don't stay on top of the banter and discussion of this particular PD thread? If you don't click on the thread, we effectively all shut up. Otherwise, its sports between people who are passionate about sports. I'm sure all of us could carry on for days. I doubt we're going to shut up on your say so.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    The Pacers admitted failure by benching a player they signed this off season with 22 games into the season is that prove enough to you or should we wait one more year?
    Don't be surprised if coach decides to give Augustin another spin. It's not clear to me that book is closed on DJA, although it certainly isn't looking good at this point.

    Looking forward to being surprised in the same way I was when PG decided to evolve his mental approach to the game.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Mernatsi View Post
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    Good post, Seth, but I can't let this crap slide. Peck doesn't get a pass, and neither do you.



    "Dominate" is a verb. "Dominant" is an adjective. A dominant team is one that dominates.

    Time to step your game up, son.

    Nap for the loss. I accept your humliation of me, it is deserved. I'm one person who firmly believes in grammar nazis. I often have to correct my posts for sound-alike errors like these, but I'm not always afforded the time to do a proof after I post. Missing stuff like this p***** me off to no end.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    The Pacers admitted failure by benching a player they signed this off season with 22 games into the season is that prove enough to you or should we wait one more year?
    So they've held themselves accountable? Owning up to mistakes is accepting accountability right? So why on earth are you thanking a post that implies a lack of accountability in the front office? Because its a negative opinion like yours?

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by docpaul View Post
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    Don't be surprised if coach decides to give Augustin another spin. It's not clear to me that book is closed on DJA, although it certainly isn't looking good at this point.

    Looking forward to being surprised in the same way I was when PG decided to evolve his mental approach to the game.
    Maybe the book is not close but the fact is that so far that signing has been a fail so I don't think is hilarious.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by TinManJoshua View Post
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    So they've held themselves accountable? Owning up to mistakes is accepting accountability right? So why on earth are you thanking a post that implies a lack of accountability in the front office? Because its a negative opinion like yours?
    I didn't know I had to ask for permission to thank somebody.......

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I didn't know I had to ask for permission to thank somebody.......
    Did I tell you you needed permission? I just thought it was rather strange you would thank that post and then turn around 5 posts later say that they've admitted to their mistake.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    I think the part you are missing is that we've been fairly average despite playing at a very low standard for our team talent level. And as we are 13-11 and have the 13th best record in the league, we are slightly above average. Missing who until this year has been our best player. Many, including myself, believe that he will resume being our best player when he returns to the team.

    So while you may not agree that we are a good team, there's plenty of reasons to believe that we are. Including what we did last year.
    That's my opinion of the situation.

    A) Granger was no available

    B) Roy crapped the bed on offense

    C) 3, 21, 24 and Vogel had to figure these two issues out, as well as working in the new bench

    D) DJ was a disaster as the bench PG on offense. Defense was understood to be bad, but his poor offense crushed the bench.

    Yet despite offensive issues and output that would warrant a "blow it up" reaction almost, the team found a way to dig in and win by leaning heavily on defense and rebounding. So it was elite defense holding up struggling offense to keep the team at, yes, average output. They weren't getting lucky with an easy schedule, they were getting by playing a NORMAL SCHEDULE. They have not been unbalanced when you look at road games as well as opponent strength.

    But in the last 2-3 weeks we've seen the team figure out that they can work Hill/West in a Stockton/Malone kind of way with lots of reliable scoring on either side of those PnR/Pop tandems. This is leading West to higher assist numbers by the way. And then Paul got the 0 point kick in the rear that dial in his pre-game effort and general focus, and the team is reaping the rewards of that too.

    So now you have 3 reliable scorers and an offense that doesn't rely on Roy, but can afford to gimp him along and try to get him going at their discretion.

    The bench is a tough one, they need scoring there. DJ has been a huge miss for them so far. But Young has dialed in his role and Mahinmi is seeing improvement in his play.

    But in general I can see their path to success forming up pretty nicely. Danny returns, Lance returns, maybe they do a deal to address DJ (or maybe he brings his game up to a level at least in contact with his previous output), and suddenly you have enough scoring to more than cover what a top 5 defensive team is giving up (that's affording the Pacers a slip in their defensive ranking).

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Stockton and Malone are hall of famers you keep bringing up the weirdest examples ever.
    Is the debate not whether a team that fails to win a title without making big changes a team that "settled for losing"?

    You want to say that the only way to run a team is to swing for the fence and if you miss you must immediately bail on that failure and take a new, totally different swing.

    So there is your number 1 classic example. You would trade Stockton and/or Malone after they failed to win a title, or when they failed to reach the Finals even. There it is, 1993 and it's TRADE CITY.

    Goodbye to every single player not named Jordan or Pippen. All other first place losers clearly aren't the alpha dogs good enough to be #1, so time to go looking for someone new.


    Maybe my confusion is on the timing. When is not winning it all acceptable? It was okay for Utah, but for the Pacers it was so unacceptable you wouldn't even ride out the return of the team's leading scorer? That's you trading Reggie and Rik in 1997 after a 1st round loss and then no playoffs at all. They couldn't even get to the Finals with Jordan out, so how in the F is 1998 going to be worth anything when those 2 couldn't do anything the prior 2 seasons.

    You trade Reggie for Iverson and you trade Rik for Mutumbo. Then you win a title....whoops, Philly Finals Fail.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    I pray for the day when comparisons are not confused with equations.

    Hell, it's probably here to stay. Miscommunication FTL.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    The disconnect here is team that wins the championship versus championship quality/contender. Only one team will win the title this year. However the Heat, Thunder, Spurs, and Grizzlies are championship contenders. Maybe you think 1-2 other teams should be on that list, but whatever. Pacers are not on that list. If you aren't on that list then you need to have a plan to get on that list. Everyone should be trying to improve, even the title winners, but the contenders are already contenders, they keep their main pieces in place and look for minor improvements. However, the teams off that list, they don't need minor improvements, they need major improvements. There is no easy way to get a major improvement, and there is no way period to get a major improvement without taking some risk. Whether that risk is a super talented player who's malcontent (see Sheed, Zbo), trading an older guy for a younger guy with huge upside (see JO), or giving up one cornerstone to alter team composition (Like say giving a potential 6th man of the year in GHill away for a draft pick.)

    The Spurs are actually a great example of an organization that continually takes risks to stay on top the field. They gave up a good known quantity for an entirely unknown draft pick, because they didn't want to (or couldn't) pay him. They take on malcontents, see Jax on their roster right now. They play young guys extended minutes whether they are ready or not, see the development of Hill, Kawhi, and Blair. That team makes significant changes to their top 8 every year, and they are not afraid to let pieces go in a risk to get even better. So no, the Spurs never "blow it up" when they fail to win it, they don't trade Duncan away, but they don't stand pat either Seth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    I didn't post over the off season...I was sweating my balls off with very little to no computer access for the Air Force during that time. I think the point you want to make is that I'm backseat driving and didn't think Asik would be good beforehand. While I did actually think he would be, it's actually irrelevant...you see, my job isn't professional talent evaluator, scout, or NBA general manager. It's Air Force Officer. It's not my job to know a player is about to break out. It is Pacers management's job, however. So if I didn't see it coming, I haven't failed, but if THEY didn't see it coming, they did fail. You see how that works? Houston saw it coming, so clearly it wasn't impossible to do, and they now get to reap the benefits while we don't.
    Wait the Air force had you without Internet access? How dare they!...one team one fight.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Dgreenwell3 View Post
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    Wait the Air force had you without Internet access? How dare they!...one team one fight.
    I know I was excited to get back to my chair. They didn't even let me have nap time

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    The disconnect here is team that wins the championship versus championship quality/contender. Only one team will win the title this year. However the Heat, Thunder, Spurs, and Grizzlies are championship contenders.
    The Grizzlies lost in the first round of the playoffs last season. The season before that, they gave OKC a scare in the second round that was VERY similar to the scare we gave the Heat in the second round of the playoffs last summer. The grizzlies never made any big changes to their core, they never traded away Z-Bo after he got hurt, they never gave up on Rudy Gay after the team showed very well in the playoffs without him; they simply kept mixing and matching cheap pieces on the bench until they found what worked. And now, they're championship contenders. It's similar to what the Pacers in the 90's did and it's that type of patience that Seth is preaching that the Pacers and fans on this forum must exhibit.

    If you don't have a Lebron, or a Durant, it's going to take time and experience to build a championship contending team. We lost our best player and leading scorer what a week before the season began? And now even after questionable losses to the Bobcats, and Raptors of the world...we are 13-11 and a 1/2 game out of 1st in the Central division. We aren't where we need to be, but we're a team with elite qualities that are similar to the aforementioned Grizzles (defense and rebounding). So yes while we could swing for the fences and look to make a big move (I have been one of those advocating a trade of D.West on the caveat that he may look for a better team in during the summer) but it's also been proven that a patient, basic approach can work as well. There are many different ways to build a contending team.

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  32. #173

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    I know I was excited to get back to my chair. They didn't even let me have nap time
    The funniest post of the year (Fact)

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    1) We didn't scare the Heat. We took two games off a team reeling from the loss of a player better than any of ours.

    2) In 2010 the Grizzlies brought in Shane Battier. In 2011 they brought in Agent Zero (malcontent high risk). This year they let their 6th man Mayo go and brought in Jerryd Bayless (malcontent high risk). That's not even considering how they went from a consistently good team with Pau Gasol, traded him for picks (HUGE RISK), and brought in ZBo (HUGE RISK) in order to get to these last 3 years. Sorry, you don't have a counter point, the Grizzlies have taken monster risks to get to be a contender.
    Last edited by Dece; 12-18-2012 at 01:45 PM. Reason: I can't spell.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    That's my opinion of the situation.

    A) Granger was no available

    B) Roy crapped the bed on offense

    C) 3, 21, 24 and Vogel had to figure these two issues out, as well as working in the new bench

    D) DJ was a disaster as the bench PG on offense. Defense was understood to be bad, but his poor offense crushed the bench.

    Yet despite offensive issues and output that would warrant a "blow it up" reaction almost, the team found a way to dig in and win by leaning heavily on defense and rebounding. So it was elite defense holding up struggling offense to keep the team at, yes, average output. They weren't getting lucky with an easy schedule, they were getting by playing a NORMAL SCHEDULE. They have not been unbalanced when you look at road games as well as opponent strength.

    But in the last 2-3 weeks we've seen the team figure out that they can work Hill/West in a Stockton/Malone kind of way with lots of reliable scoring on either side of those PnR/Pop tandems.This is leading West to higher assist numbers by the way. And then Paul got the 0 point kick in the rear that dial in his pre-game effort and general focus, and the team is reaping the rewards of that too.

    So now you have 3 reliable scorers and an offense that doesn't rely on Roy, but can afford to gimp him along and try to get him going at their discretion.

    The bench is a tough one, they need scoring there. DJ has been a huge miss for them so far. But Young has dialed in his role and Mahinmi is seeing improvement in his play.

    But in general I can see their path to success forming up pretty nicely. Danny returns, Lance returns, maybe they do a deal to address DJ (or maybe he brings his game up to a level at least in contact with his previous output), and suddenly you have enough scoring to more than cover what a top 5 defensive team is giving up (that's affording the Pacers a slip in their defensive ranking).
    How do you want me to take you seriously if you keep comparing Pacers players to hall of famers? I like you but damn anytime you make this kind of comparisons I can barely stop myself for throwing up.

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  5. {Pacers.Com} Is deal for #1 pick being discussed ?
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    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 06-21-2006, 10:40 PM

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