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Thread: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

  1. #126

    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    If someone keeps saying they have all the right answers, odds are they don't.

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  3. #127
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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    I guess I learned a second thing.... Dece = vnzla81

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Anyway, it always comes back to the same thing, some people are happy being a second round playoff exit max quality team every year hoping to get lucky, and some are willing to do anything for a championship. Guys like me and V and others I'm sure are never going to be satisfied with the sort of guys who will say, "Well, we're pretty good. We even took the Heat without Bosh to 6 games! That's good enough for me." Some people are always going to demand that you do everything you can, take risks and shoot for the championship. That's not to say the side who's satisfied with good and hoping to get lucky are wrong, it's just a different mindset. I appreciate the people who were willing to present actual arguments to me, it was a fun conversation on my end.

    I'd probably argue that one of my three degrees makes me smart and that my Captain rank and command of 25 people has given me some wisdom... but I've argued enough for today. I'm going to go watch Harden finish taking apart the Knicks and get some sleep. Happy Holidays.

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  6. #129

    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Dece can you point me to the post you made during free agency where you said we should pay Asik $35 million?

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tuts Tomb View Post
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    Dece can you point me to the post you made during free agency where you said we should pay Asik $35 million?
    Whenever ppl bring up the whole "we should have signed Asik" thing I always point to the utter shock that EVERYBODY had with the contract offer that he received. Whenever he recieved extended mins in Chi, he hadn't shown to be much but an above average defensive C. He definitely wasnt putting up double doubles consistently. (AVG 3 and 5 a game, and 8 and 13 per 36)

    Meanwhile Roy was coming off an AS berth, and a good run in the playoffs where he was our defensive anchor. Asik seemed to be a downgrade at the position in the offseason.

    In hindsight, yeah you could say we should've signed Asik to a big contract, but to have thought he'd be putting up double doubles consistently and playing so well is a joke IMO.

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  10. #131
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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Dece, no one(or very few) on this board is happy with a perennial second round playoff exit. Guess what, its only happened once. How do you know this team is not going to be capable of improving upon last seasons success?

    Dece you have an extremely negative viewpoint, while someone like Naptown Seth has an extremely positive viewpoint. In reality, it is probably a balance between the two.

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  12. #132
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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by docpaul View Post
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    Naptown, two other areas that could stand considerable improvement are steals and turnovers.

    We are horrible at creating opponent turnovers, and we rarely get steals.

    Wondering if this is purely an attempt to slow down offense and/or force long 2's?
    That's easily explainable, actually. We don't gamble on passing lanes. By gambling on passing lanes you may get a steal but you could also leave a lane wide open. So, we prefer to not leave a lane wide open and only go for the safe steals.

    We also prefer to clog the lane a bit and leave some open 20ft jumpers instead of a shot in the paint (well, the game against Denver was an exception to this rule).

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    Anyway, it always comes back to the same thing, some people are happy being a second round playoff exit max quality team every year hoping to get lucky, and some are willing to do anything for a championship. Guys like me and V and others I'm sure are never going to be satisfied with the sort of guys who will say, "Well, we're pretty good. We even took the Heat without Bosh to 6 games! That's good enough for me." Some people are always going to demand that you do everything you can, take risks and shoot for the championship. That's not to say the side who's satisfied with good and hoping to get lucky are wrong, it's just a different mindset. I appreciate the people who were willing to present actual arguments to me, it was a fun conversation on my end.

    I'd probably argue that one of my three degrees makes me smart and that my Captain rank and command of 25 people has given me some wisdom... but I've argued enough for today. I'm going to go watch Harden finish taking apart the Knicks and get some sleep. Happy Holidays.
    My epeen is bigger than yours.

  15. #134
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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    Alright, that's fair, you aren't guaranteed to ever gain any, but you are never wiser at 21 than you are at 31.
    Now that's a place where we can agree.
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  16. #135
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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Harden is definitely a great scorer, but it will be interesting to see if he's just a high volume scorer on a bad team a la Monta Ellis or actually a guy who can make his teammates better too.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    No Seth, you really just don't get it. The Pacers ARE NOT great. We have 2 wins against playoff caliber teams. 2! I don't understand how people can't understand that level of competition matters.
    Yes, the level of competition matters. But home vs away matters as well. We have had 10 home games and 14 away games.

    Let me list the away games for your convenience:

    @ Toronto (below .500, win)

    @ Charlotte (below .500, loss)

    @ San Antonio (over .500, loss)

    @ Atlanta (over .500, loss)

    @ Minnesota (over .500, loss)

    @ Milwaukee (over .500, loss)

    @ New York (over .500, loss)

    @ Washington (under .500, win)

    @ Los Angeles (under .500, win)

    @ Sacramento (under .500, win)

    @Golden State (over .500, loss)

    @ Chicago (over .500, win)

    @ Oklahoma (over .500, loss)

    @ Detroit (under .500, win)

    We have had 11 games against "over .500" opponents so far. Only 3 of those games were (vs Phily, San Antonio and Denver) in Indiana. We went 1-2 in those games. The remaining 8 of them were away. We were 1 - 7 in those games.

    So, we're losing against playoffs teams in their courts without our best player. Who would have thought?


    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    You guys are in for a real wake up when we stop playing bottom feeders. We host Memphis on New Year's Eve. You feel strongly enough about our rebounding to place a bet on who wins the battle of the boards that night? Pretty confident they are going to come into our gym and take our lunch money, because they are an actually tough team who can impose their will on anyone -- they don't have to push around the Bobcats to look good.
    It's a home game. I'm sure that we will do well. Actually, I'm willing to bet that we're going to win the rebounding battle. If we lose it, you can keep that Hibbert jersey that you'll buy

  18. #137
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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    So some people really believe that Hibbert is better than Gasol? .... cocaine is a hell of a drug....
    So, if we believe that two players are close in ability and quite comparable then that means that we believe that one of them is better than the other?

    Gotcha..

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    What seems a lot more meaningful is that we're beating bad teams at an 85% clip, while beating good teams at an 18% clip.
    While playing those bad teams at home and those good teams on the road. Than you very, very much for proving my point

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    Anyway, it always comes back to the same thing, some people are happy being a second round playoff exit max quality team every year hoping to get lucky, and some are willing to do anything for a championship.
    And what exactly do you, vnzla, me, aamcguy, Peck, Hicks and every other person on this forum do for this team? What can they do? Do you play the games? Do you train the players? Do you coach the team? Do you pay their salaries? What is it that you're willing to do?

    At most, you go to games. That's the most that a fan can do. He can support his team and go to its games. He doesn't play the games. He doesn't train the players. He doesn't coach the team. He doesn't pay everyone's salary. A fan can go to the game and cheer for his team. That's all. So, I really don't get what do you mean with the "willing to do" comment.

    PS I: Just because we lost to the second round once, it doesn't mean that we will never get past the second round.

    PS II: If attendances were the way to calculate records, we would be 26th in the league. Just sayin'


    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    Some people are always going to demand that you do everything you can, take risks and shoot for the championship.
    Those people better be willing to tank hard, though. Taking risks and shooting for the championship is great but it can backfire bad and put the team in a many years of suckage. Are those people willing to go through them?

    Because the ownership certainly doesn't seem to think so. The Pacers are not fully supported by the state of Indiana. The fans are not coming to support the team in winning seasons. They have no reason to think that in case of a losing season the crowds would come to the BLF.

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  22. #140

    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Those people better be willing to tank hard, though. Taking risks and shooting for the championship is great but it can backfire bad and put the team in a many years of suckage. Are those people willing to go through them?

    Because the ownership certainly doesn't seem to think so. The Pacers are not fully supported by the state of Indiana. The fans are not coming to support the team in winning seasons. They have no reason to think that in case of a losing season the crowds would come to the BLF.
    Absolutely agree with everything you wrote. Two great points you brought up that I wanted to add to:

    -The Pacers were not in a financial situation to allow their All Star, 25 year old center to leave with nothing in return. Simon and management have to deal with marketing pressures in the state of Indiana that we as fans don't fully care about or understand. People may not like it, but that's the way it is. I give them a little leeway for that fact.

    -I really respect the Pacers for not tanking when they easily could have. The Thunder tanked three years in a row to build that team. The Celtics, Bulls and a lot of other teams tanked to some extent to build their cores. The fact that we didn't really means a lot to me.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tuts Tomb View Post
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    -I really respect the Pacers for not tanking when they easily could have. The Thunder tanked three years in a row to build that team. The Celtics, Bulls and a lot of other teams tanked to some extent to build their cores. The fact that we didn't really means a lot to me.
    Personally, I wouldn't have a problem if they were to tank. I like the fact that they didn't tank but I'd understand it if they were to tank.

    The reason that I mentioned it is because I want to keep people realistic about some things. Risks are great but they can backfire baaad. For every Durant there is an Arenas. For every Dirk there is a Rashard Lewis. Not every risk pans out.

    Are people willing to go through several years of losing if the risk doesn't pan out? That's what I'm asking.

    Because that's what the "championship-or-bust" people are asking for.

    Will they help finance the team when the risk fails and the town's population continues to turn the back on the team?

    That's my question.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    My epeen is bigger than yours.
    That seems highly unlikely... you aren't old enough to have accomplished much ;-) If you need someone to help you with your homework PM me.

    People here seem to take arguments really personal. Everyone here is a fan, they wouldn't waste their time coming here if that weren't true. Arguing is one of the best ways to learn and understand other people's viewpoints. Step back, don't take it personal, and if you have a viewpoint that you believe in, learn to explain and defend it. It's an enjoyable debate and both "sides" can learn more about the other side and why they think the way they do. What bothers me most about this board is often people will say something and give it no justification or reasoning. Just make up stuff out of thin air. If you believe something, know *why* you believe something, and if you're going to make statements, be prepared to explain the rationale behind those statements. These things greatly improve forum discourse. Resorting to personal attacks though, whether it's calling someone a negative nancy, an overly positive fanboy, stupid, or yes I did it too, just too young, are all failures in honest discussion.

    At the end of the day none of us are GM's, so I assume there's no real reason to believe one of us has a more valid opinion than another. It's sports... having an opinion to talk about is a large part of the fun.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Personally, I wouldn't have a problem if they were to tank. I like the fact that they didn't tank but I'd understand it if they were to tank.

    The reason that I mentioned it is because I want to keep people realistic about some things. Risks are great but they can backfire baaad. For every Durant there is an Arenas. For every Dirk there is a Rashard Lewis. Not every risk pans out.

    Are people willing to go through several years of losing if the risk doesn't pan out? That's what I'm asking.

    Because that's what the "championship-or-bust" people are asking for.

    Will they help finance the team when the risk fails and the town's population continues to turn the back on the team?

    That's my question.
    You're exactly right Nunt, they wouldn't be called risks if they couldn't go bad. However, you don't win anything by always playing it safe. You do all the information gathering you can, try to get the odds as much in your favor as possible...but you can always roll snake eyes. OKC went through ~5 rough years transitioning off of the perennially good, but never great, Ray Allen/Reshard Lewis team. Now they get the better part of a decade of being championship contenders. 100% worth it in my mind. So yea, I'm willing to trade away all my vets and develop my youth and collect lottery picks. That isn't where this team has been in position to do this year or last year, but it certainly was 5 years ago.

    This particular team is in a position more akin to the very good, but not great, Pistons team recently where they took a BIG risk in bringing in a "locker room cancer" Rasheed Wallace. He could have brought that team down with his antics. Instead he lifted them up to the title. They risked it though. If you want a title you need big talent, and to acquire talent you have to take risks. A lot of people thought we'd win the title the brawl year...but it was a big risk, having Ron Artest, a known problem child, Jack, a known problem child, and Tinsley, a known problem child, all on the same roster. We ended up rolling snake eyes. Hey, that sucks, but we could have won it all, and the team is still here. If we ever want a title, we will have to take new risks, I know that's true.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tuts Tomb View Post
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    Dece can you point me to the post you made during free agency where you said we should pay Asik $35 million?
    I didn't post over the off season...I was sweating my balls off with very little to no computer access for the Air Force during that time. I think the point you want to make is that I'm backseat driving and didn't think Asik would be good beforehand. While I did actually think he would be, it's actually irrelevant...you see, my job isn't professional talent evaluator, scout, or NBA general manager. It's Air Force Officer. It's not my job to know a player is about to break out. It is Pacers management's job, however. So if I didn't see it coming, I haven't failed, but if THEY didn't see it coming, they did fail. You see how that works? Houston saw it coming, so clearly it wasn't impossible to do, and they now get to reap the benefits while we don't.

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  28. #145
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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    People here seem to take arguments really personal.
    People take it personal when you say things like, "you just don't get it" or when you insinuate you being older makes your argument better. And once again, with this statement, you are passing the blame of the emotion on to the other person. At one point aamcguy gave you a perfectly good explanation of his side of things, and you say, "What even is your argument man?" Take some time to understand everyone's opinion and people might not get so emotional. Just a thought.

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  30. #146
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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    It's Air Force Officer.
    Oh yeah, and thanks for serving!

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by HickeyS2000 View Post
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    People take it personal when you say things like, "you just don't get it" or when you insinuate you being older makes your argument better. And once again, with this statement, you are passing the blame of the emotion on to the other person. At one point aamcguy gave you a perfectly good explanation of his side of things, and you say, "What even is your argument man?" Take some time to understand everyone's opinion and people might not get so emotional. Just a thought.
    Actually there was nothing to understand until I forced him to explain it with that question. He made a statement without explanation and didn't defend it until pressed. After he defended it, which he did in a good way, I understood - which was the point. You'll also note I called myself out on innapropriately commenting in an ad hominem fashion with the age thing twice now, so maybe grow some thicker skin and let it go. I've posted something like 50 comments in here, certainly thousands of words, 1 annoyed comment is hardly so ground breaking as to still be hung up on it. There's plenty of actual content to comment on.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    Actually there was nothing to understand until I forced him to explain it with that question. He made a statement without explanation and didn't defend it until pressed. After he defended it, which he did in a good way, I understood - which was the point. You'll also note I called myself out on innapropriately commenting in an ad hominem fashion with the age thing twice now, so maybe grow some thicker skin and let it go. I've posted something like 50 comments in here, certainly thousands of words, 1 annoyed comment is hardly so ground breaking as to still be hung up on it. There's plenty of actual content to comment on.
    And once again, you aren't willing to see the other side of things. Which was exactly my point.

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    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    That seems highly unlikely... you aren't old enough to have accomplished much ;-) If you need someone to help you with your homework PM me.
    Get this crap out of here, Dece. If you're so proud of being an adult, then please do us the courtesy of acting like one.
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  35. #150

    Default Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    I didn't post over the off season...I was sweating my balls off with very little to no computer access for the Air Force during that time. I think the point you want to make is that I'm backseat driving and didn't think Asik would be good beforehand. While I did actually think he would be, it's actually irrelevant...you see, my job isn't professional talent evaluator, scout, or NBA general manager. It's Air Force Officer. It's not my job to know a player is about to break out. It is Pacers management's job, however. So if I didn't see it coming, I haven't failed, but if THEY didn't see it coming, they did fail. You see how that works? Houston saw it coming, so clearly it wasn't impossible to do, and they now get to reap the benefits while we don't.
    You're playing an impossible game here. You're looking at only the personnel moves that worked then asking why the Pacers didn't make them. It doesn't matter if someone is an NBA talent evaluator, scout, GM or you work on Wall Street or in the Air Force, nobody can make the right move every time. All you can hope to do is make the right moves a MAJORITY of the time.

    What you're doing isn't even backseat driving. You're looking at the car in the other lane asking "Why didn't you buy that car?"

    This part especially is almost laughable:
    So if I didn't see it coming, I haven't failed, but if THEY didn't see it coming, they did fail.
    Fail? It's two months into the first season of a four year contract. This to me proves that you're not really arguing for any reason other than you wan't to argue. Roy could make multiple all star teams, Asik could join a cult and quit basketball forever, or vice versa. By any rational measure it's WAY to early to call it a success or failure.

    As for Asik, I don't get the fascination. I like him as a player but Roy is almost at his level on defense and is far and away superior offensively. That's worth the extra six million dollars.

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